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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Don't hold religions accountable [Re: ]
    #789253 - 07/31/02 08:49 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I think evolving offered some good insights.

Before I respond to your points, I want to cut to the chase. Are you taking the position that one can abdicate responsibility merely by hiding in a group? Is not a group mind made up of individual minds who either believe in the groups morality or have agreed to surrender his own morality merely to belong?

Does this mean that you are guilty because you do not try to stop the horrors that now are committed by the human race of which you are a part?
You are assuming that:

1. I am human and

2. that I have voluntarily joined the human race

3. that I am doing nothing to better the world.

Seriously though, there is no group human race ideology to object to nor to endorse. Basically there is no other group to join.

Are they wrong just because YOU think they are?
The group is not necessarily wrong, but the group member most certainly is for continuing to support something that he finds morally repugnant.

"To thine own self be true." - Billy the Shake

"You are either with me or against me." - J.C.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Edited by Swami (08/01/02 04:28 AM)


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Offlinewhy
journeyman
Registered: 06/03/02
Posts: 50
Last seen: 19 years, 1 month
Re: Don't hold religions accountable [Re: chemkid]
    #789604 - 08/01/02 02:59 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I think that you are foolish by judging every last muslim when you have met no where near all of them.

I didn't judge any muslims for their beliefs. The only person I judged was mohammed.

Of course there have been some lunatics but what group or association doesn't have their share of them?

my point was that tho christianity has had it's fair share of killers and perverts, with Islam you are dealing with a religion that was founded by one.

So what if Mohammed started a Holy War and such?

so what if he started a holy war? If you can't see any problem with that...

God whiped out whole civilizations with floods. If the bible tells true

No he didn't.




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Anonymous

Re: Don't hold religions accountable [Re: ]
    #789786 - 08/01/02 06:33 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

By all means feel free to comment on anything I say and if you ever catch me posting illogically be sure to point it out. I relish constructive criticism.

If you disagree with the actions of a group you belong to what is your choice?

Depending on the situation, speak up, physically attempt to stop the action, report the group to the proper authorities, stop associating with the group, make others aware of the group and it's actions which you find disagreeable.

These solutions are laudable ones but they depend on the nature of the group. Swami pointed out that he had no choice in 'belonging' to the human race. If one belongs to a group that is defined ideologically the choices are different. Say for example you are a Muslim because you think their doctrine is correct. September 11th happens and you live in Brooklyn, New York, at the time? What is the appropriate response?

There are numerous examples I could give but I hope you get the point.

... how can you even make an assessment that the groups actions are wrong? Are they wrong just because YOU think they are?

If you have any type of morality, on some level you will judge the actions of others based on your morals. Moral relativism is a slippery slope that could allow one to descend into the lowest levels of inhumanity. If a man's morality is dependant on whatever group he is associating with at the time, he has no principles and is only worthy of contempt. If a man avoids taking a stand on his principles, what good are his principles? Should one rely on the "Nuremberg Defense" or passively go along with something that one finds morally abhorrent?

Well said.

The thorny problem behind Swami's idea is how we determine whether something is immoral or not and that is what I was alluding to. Personally I think that Plato's idea that the good was something quantifiable is right on point. You bring up the Germans during WW 2. What should have been their appropriate response as a German citizen?

I firmly agree that if a person does not act on their principles they do not have them. This is why I say that courage rather than intelligence is a rarer commodity today. Most people say or do nothing because it costs something. You become an outcast or face severe consequences merely for opening your mouth.

Here's another example to think about. If Swami's town is passing legislation that is unfair and oppresses people and yet he keeps silent about it, is he guilty? What level of activity excuses him from blame?

I do not think these questions have easy answers and for the most part in this discussion that is what I am seeing.

Cheers,



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Anonymous

Re: Don't hold religions accountable [Re: Swami]
    #789826 - 08/01/02 06:50 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

You give good answers. Be careful, you'll spoil me.

Are you taking the position that one can abdicate responsibility merely by hiding in a group? Is not a group mind made up of individual minds who either believe in the groups morality or have agreed to surrender his own morality merely to belong?

1. No

2. It depends. You claim to be an atheist or an agnostic. Therefore you are bound to them ideologically. You are part of that group. You belong to it. There is no difference between that and religious groups when it comes to grouping them together for analysis. If you think otherwise you do not understand the true nature of ideological affiliation.

The group is not necessarily wrong, but the group member most certainly is for continuing to support something that he finds morally repugnant.

I take it you live in a political subdivision(s) be they state, city, or whatever. You are supporting your city through taxes. What do you do when they pass laws that offend your precious sensibilities? Move? Write a letter to the editor? Merely vote against them next time the offenders are up for office?

You place a higher standard than you can live up to pragmatically, if I may be so bold, my friend.

It is the same way with those of us who 'belong' to various ideological groups. I am not responsible for anyone's actions but my own. I find the notion that I am, silly.

Cheers,





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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Don't hold religions accountable [Re: ]
    #789843 - 08/01/02 06:59 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

As an aside, philosophy is fine, but talking and action are two different things.

If you read in another thread, I voluntarily joined the U.S. Navy. When I realized that violence was not what I was about, I applied for Conscientious Objector status. Basically, I decided my morals did not match the group's morals. I withstood over a year of intense psychological abuse to achieve my goal.

I merely offer this up as a personal real-world example regarding this discussion.

You are right in that it takes courage to go against the grain and to put one's ideas into practice. Lethargy, inertia and comfort are what deaden most of us to taking action. I believe that we should all take one small corner of our world and try to affect change in that arena rather than either trying to do everything or finding mankind's problems all too overwhelming and hence, do nothing.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisiblebuttonion
Calmly Watching

Registered: 04/04/02
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
Re: Don't hold religions accountable [Re: Swami]
    #789860 - 08/01/02 07:10 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I believe that we should all take one small corner of our world and try to affect change in that arena rather than either trying to do everything or finding mankind's problems all too overwhelming and hence, do nothing.

Wow, I really like that way of putting it. I know that feeling of noticing how the world is fucked up on so many different areas, and for me, it often does lead to to this kind of nihilistic resignation. But each one of us can't do everything, so a realistic alternative is to work in area in which you may have talent and interest... and be comfortable with the fact that you are not going to change the world by yourself.


--------------------
Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein


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Anonymous

Re: Don't hold religions accountable [Re: Swami]
    #789867 - 08/01/02 07:15 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I applaud your decision to leave the Navy. I think that might have taken more bravery than the supposed bravery of those that stayed to fight.

I do not relish violence but if I think that I must violently defend something that I believe in, I will. For example, I live in a rather violent neighborhood. On the outside of my house are signs that say that the owner of the property is armed and ready to defend the lives and property of those that live there. The signs have a picture of a .45 caliber handgun. I never have any problems, yet I do not own a gun. If I did and someone was threatening my wife I would shoot them in an instant.

I have stood up against the crowd over and over again. And I have paid the price for it. But I am true to what I believe in and by acting on my values I know that I truly own them.

Cheers,


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Don't hold religions accountable [Re: ]
    #789899 - 08/01/02 07:34 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

It depends. You claim to be an atheist or an agnostic. Therefore you are bound to them ideologically. You are part of that group. You belong to it. There is no difference between that and religious groups when it comes to grouping them together for analysis. If you think otherwise you do not understand the true nature of ideological affiliation.

I have to strongly disagree here. I am not really atheist or agnostic. Those are just convenient labels to make discussion somewhat easier.

I adhere to no group ideology in this regard. The set that I belong to is as defined by others not myself; whereas a Christian or a Republican defines themselves through their association with the group.

My actual take on the whole God issue is this:

God cannot be clearly defined, therefore I cannot say whether or not I believe in something that is vague and nebulous.

I have no way of discerning an afterlife nor a God, so I don't give the whole thing much energy until someone thrust's their ideas of ultimate truth in my face.

My actual belief is ignorance. I don't know and have no way of knowing. That is hardly any kind of idealogy, nor part of a group mindset.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Edited by Swami (08/01/02 07:35 AM)


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Anonymous

Re: Don't hold religions accountable [Re: Swami]
    #789916 - 08/01/02 07:43 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Your objection is noted.

Think about this a while and perhaps you can see why I disagree.

Cheers,


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Don't hold religions accountable [Re: ]
    #789934 - 08/01/02 07:55 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I think that I understand where you are coming from.

However, as a Christian, you do and believe certain things that other Christians do.

Perhaps you pray or go to church or study scriptures or hold the teachings of Christ close to your heart. There is SOME association with others.

I read no agnostic/atheist books nor doctrines nor go to meetings, nor do I even feel that I have something in common with other atheists/agnostics.

You put some sort of energy/focus/discipline into being a Christian; whereas my stance of being atheist/agnostic is below my daily awareness threshold.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Anonymous

Re: Don't hold religions accountable [Re: Swami]
    #790588 - 08/01/02 01:16 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Yes, I have similarities with others and I am glad you understand my point. However, you seem to be saying that your case is analytically distinct. You seem to resist being catalogued with others that think as you do. It does not matter that you do not attend agnostic or atheist meetings you still hold to the same precepts. And therefore, are within the group whether you can see it or not.

Hey, do you guys have dues and stuff?

I find it highly improbable that you have never read books that influenced you with regard to religion or that you do not associate with others that think as you do. Right here on this forum you seem to do well with those who hold similar views about God. If that is not association, what is it?

Perhaps you cannot see that you are a part of a group analytically and that you have a certain affiliation with them, I don't know. What I do know is that you are not analytically distinct from others who either believe or choose not to.

Finally, I eschew the words "feel" and "believe" unless they fit an appropriate context. Your preceding post is one where I wouldn't have used the word "feel" or "feeling" because feelings have little to do with it.

Cheers,


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Offlinechemkid
Be excellent toeach other

Registered: 06/21/02
Posts: 506
Loc: Between a rock and a hard...
Last seen: 17 years, 2 months
Re: Don't hold religions accountable [Re: ]
    #790694 - 08/01/02 02:15 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

May I interject?

It seems as though the debate has shifted as to the definition of a group. I think that because human nature is to categorize things for the sake of efficiency, we tend to be all or nothing thinkers. Either you are part of that group or not. The truth is that there are many shades of certain groups. Would you consider Hamas and Islam to be the same thing? They certainly stem from the same type of group and beliefs but they are infinitely different.

Anyway my point is this: Let's get away from defining a "group" and reask the question....."are you personally accountable for the actions of a group that you are associated with?" "Is religion accountable for the actions of a few crazies who claim to be part of it?"


--------------------
An open mind is the greatest journey of all.


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Anonymous

Re: Don't hold religions accountable [Re: chemkid]
    #790969 - 08/01/02 04:41 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

The answers to the questions you are asking are dependent on the definitions of the terms you use.

If a religion wishes to remain ideologically and morally pure then it had best have a way to excommunicate members that are acting against its values. Otherwise it is responsible for their actions to a degree.

Cheers,


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OfflineShroomalicious
You may say I'ma dreamer...

Registered: 06/20/02
Posts: 319
Loc: The Shire
Last seen: 18 years, 9 months
Re: Don't hold religions accountable [Re: chemkid]
    #793618 - 08/03/02 03:49 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I have always said two saying of my own creation...

"Most religion are the same and teach good values...we disagree about how to translate those values into everyday life."

"Religion has not failed mankind...mankind has failed religion. We created it, it IS us. We are failing ourselves in that regard."

But what do I know, I am qouting myself!


--------------------
Shroomalicious - :smile: I love you and in doing so I love myself, because we ARE all one :smile: - "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth leaves the whole world blind and toothless". - Mahatma Ghandi


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Don't hold religions accountable [Re: Swami]
    #793883 - 08/03/02 08:54 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

My actual belief is ignorance. I don't know and have no way of knowing.

Then please stop wasting bandwidth on the forum by attacking others for their beliefs.

Thank you.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineGreyMatter
enthusiast

Registered: 03/26/02
Posts: 329
Loc: USA
Last seen: 17 years, 3 months
Re: Don't hold religions accountable [Re: Xlea321]
    #794066 - 08/03/02 10:45 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

If you disagree with the actions of a group you belong to what is your choice?

Uhm, so what if you are a child brought up in this group?
Not much say there.....


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Offlinechemkid
Be excellent toeach other

Registered: 06/21/02
Posts: 506
Loc: Between a rock and a hard...
Last seen: 17 years, 2 months
Re: Don't hold religions accountable [Re: Shroomalicious]
    #794335 - 08/03/02 02:10 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I agree with shroomalicious, religion is pure (whether you believe in that religion or not). I mean pure in the sense that it is only a collection of written doctrine and ideologies. It in itself can't commit atrocities to mankind. It is indeed man that has failed religion not the other way around.

I am sure that there are some religions that preach hatred an violence which is certainly a religion that should be held accountable (maybe Satanism). I don't claim to know the doctrine of every religion.

But for the most part Christianity, Judaeism, Islam, Buddhism, Hindi, etc. These all teach peace. So if it teaches peace and a man does not act peaceful, how can that religion be blamed?


--------------------
An open mind is the greatest journey of all.


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Don't hold religions accountable [Re: chemkid]
    #794746 - 08/03/02 07:48 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Satanism is actually pretty funny. It's almost a brand of existentialism.
Go here: http://www.churchofsatan.com

It really has nothing to do with drinking goat blood and decapitating cats.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Offlinemirrorsaw
journeyman
Registered: 08/03/02
Posts: 52
Last seen: 19 years, 1 month
Re: Don't hold religions accountable [Re: Sclorch]
    #794978 - 08/04/02 02:03 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Satanism is actually pretty funny. It's almost a brand of existentialism

I agree, it's existentialism with some ritual magick thrown in for good measure. In occult theory, magick is usually performed with the help of elementals / spirits/ demons who are controlled by the magician. The church of satan don't believe in such things as God, the Devil, or a spirit world and I'm not sure how they explain how their rituals are supposed to work. They seem to be against cruelty to animals, so instead of animal sacrifice they recommend masturbating to raise the energy needed to successfully perform magick!

The Church of Satan has nothing to do with true satanism.


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OfflineLiquidSmoke
My title's cooler than yours DBK

Registered: 09/04/01
Posts: 25,267
Loc: S.A.G.G.Y.B.A.L.L.S.
Last seen: 6 months, 30 days
Re: Don't hold religions accountable [Re: why]
    #829231 - 08/19/02 11:48 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

=God whiped out whole civilizations with floods. If the bible tells true

No he didn't.=



Yes, yes he did. It's called Noah's Arc.


--------------------
"Shmokin' weed, Shmokin' wizz, doin' coke, drinkin' beers.  Drinkin' beers beers beers, rollin' fatties, smokin' blunts.  Who smokes tha blunts?  We smoke the blunts" - Jay and Silent Bob strike Back


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