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Re: Traps and pitfalls of logic and science. [Re: ]
    #616329 -

Damn!


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Traps and pitfalls of logic and science. [Re: Swami]
    #616333 -

Yeah you know how that goes.. anyways I am hetero and live a good 3000 miles away from you

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Re: Traps and pitfalls of logic and science. [Re: Swami]
    #616409 -

I really don't understand how pain can be objective. First of all, that definition of objectivity is bogus. How can a sensible experience possibly be independant of individual thought or be perceptible by all observers? Wait, I know how you will reply: anyone who is hit in the back of the head will feel pain. But which comes first - our experience or our labeling of the experience? "Existence precedes essence" -Sartre Which means: "Man exists, turns up, appears on the scene, and, only afterwards, defines himself." Life is not a computer program. There is no entity in the world with which we can compare our experience, and therefore it must be subjective. And this doesn't mean that we can't figure out how things in our world work, but these come AFTER our thrust into existence in which there is no reference point and hence NO OBJECTIVITY.

Does this make sense? <-- please answer this question Swami. I am asking you if my message is coherent, not if it is logical (which I think it is)
Am I still wrong?

Peace.

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Re: Traps and pitfalls of logic and science. [Re: JPAtanat]
    #616437 -

I really don't understand how pain can be objective.
It is both objective and subjective.

Subjective:

A. We all have varying sensitivity to pain, both physical and societal (Take it like a man!)

B. How we perceive the pain. Muscle burn can be extreme during hardcore bodybuilding, but is transformed through the knowledge of results. (No pain, no gain.) In a similar way, western women have been taught that childbirth pain is extreme and should be numbed by drugs. Other societies find the pain to be part of the bonding and the experience and would not think of drugging themselves.


Objective:

We ALL have neural pathways that respond to stimulus such as heat, cold, pinprick or sudden whack in the head.

Unless one has a severed nerve, everyone will feel the whack and it is possible to translate that to pleasure of some sort (masochism). No matter how you filter it, all people will suffer physical damage from the death of a few cells to a crushed skull dependant on the force applied.

If there was no objectivity whatsoever, we would not even be able to communicate even on the most basic level with each other as each person's world would be unrelated to another's. We all have commonalities and differences.

I think what you are saying is that we start basically the same, but then redefine ourselves as we accumulate experience.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Traps and pitfalls of logic and science. [Re: Swami]
    #616571 -

I don't see how this is so hard to comprehend.

Why don't the anti-Swaminists take a class in logic (you can argue with the teacher all you want)...
Then come back and argue why there is no objective reality or why logic is useless.

Okay, even if you don't agree with the logic course... at least you'll be able to see (clearly... well, in theory) our perspective.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: Traps and pitfalls of logic and science. [Re: Swami]
    #616806 -

Ok, ok.
i agree that we can say that contact results in an experience of it and that we have neural pathways that react to stimulus. But I was saying the basis of our existence is subjective. We can then determine causes and effects of various phenomena, and learn from that, and becaues of that we can develop language and computers, systems of logic, etc. But I still don't think that that makes existence objective. I am not saying that logic doesn't work - it clearly does, it just means that the true nature of existence transcends the boundaries and abstractions set up by logic, and any way of thinking.
does that make sense?
do you agree?

Peace.

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Re: Traps and pitfalls of logic and science. [Re: Sclorch]
    #616813 -

you fool. first of all, i do comprehend what Swami is trying to say. I am tryins to say something too, and I am not so eloquent and sometimes I get the feeling that people do not understand. that is all. People in the opposing camps do not very often reply with an "I understand, but...." instead it is systematic debunking of each statement. I did take a logic course, and I have never claimed logic to be useless. In fact it is supremely useful. All i wish to say is that logic did not come first. Subjectivity came first, and is the underlying truth of our lives. I do see clearly your perspective. It is very straightforward and easy to understand. But I still have not gotten an indication that you understand my viewpoint. Swami's last post was the close as it has gotten to a consent. So please, we can disagree, but I am just trying to see if you guys understand my point.

Peace.

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Re: Traps and pitfalls of logic and science. [Re: JPAtanat]
    #616839 -

. I am not saying that logic doesn't work - it clearly does, it just means that the true nature of existence transcends the boundaries and abstractions set up by logic, and any way of thinking.

Of course it does. Yet what other approach is there in trying to comprehend the incomprehensible? Experience is a starting point, but because of our thousand filters may or may not be interpreted correctly. No matter how far one penetrates, there will always be a point beyond which nothing can be said.

If we solved the riddle of existence, we could all pack up and go home.



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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Traps and pitfalls of logic and science. [Re: Swami]
    #616874 -

"Then come back and argue why there is no objective reality"

For the record, I do believe in an objective reality.
But it could be argued that the only evidence of an objective reality is in that reality itself. There can be no independent confirmation of it. So you can only accept on faith the reality of what you are seeing.

I accept my senses on faith, not logic. It can't be proven logically that what you're seeing is really what is there because logic depends on the senses that are being questioned.

"No matter how far one penetrates, there will always be a point beyond which nothing can be said"

I would say that we are at that point from the start. And whatever reality we build from that point is real.

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