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Religion
    #404043 -

I wonder why a good number of people hate religion? It is a thing meant to spread love and goodness, and it often times does. But people refuse to look at anything but the negatives (Jerry Falwell, Bin Laden, homophobia, etc). I mean, isn't this the kind of thinking that is making drugs illegal today? There are alot of people who don't use them correctly... and it hurts themselves and others. Lots of people don't understand religion, don't follow it correctly, and it hurts themselves and others. You all talk about having open minds, the majority of the people seem to accept Shroomism's thoughts on aliens, but when someone believes in religion, they must be an idiot.

Although alot of bad things happened because of modern religion, what about all the good things? Society wouldn't be what it is today if it wasn't for Christianity. If you look at the majority of truly religious people, they are some of the nicest people you will ever meet. But so many seem to only notice the extremists who overlook the true meanings of there faith and dwell on trivial points.



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Re: Religion [Re: MrKurtz]
    #405355 -

On TV last night this lady said that if everyone was athiest, the world would be a better place.........



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I got a buddy with United Fruit, get ya started...

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Re: Religion [Re: Mighty Bop]
    #405362 -

That lady is very ignorant to life if she thinks that the world would be better if everyone was athiest. If everyone was athiest then people wouldn't worry about going to hell, and kill and fuck whoever the pleased, i know iwould.

first u get the money, then u get the Weemen!
Wee men? what the hell are u talking about!
i said woman; no u didn't man!

~Ur PAYING ME IN HAIR CLIPPINGS! WHAT ARE U cRAZY?


--------------------
first u get the money, then u get the Weemen!
Wee men? what the hell are u talking about!
i said woman; no u didn't man!

~Ur PAYING ME IN HAIR CLIPPINGS! WHAT ARE U cRAZY?

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Re: Religion [Re: Mighty Bop]
    #405363 -

That lady is very ignorant to life if she thinks that the world would be better if everyone was athiest. If everyone was athiest then people wouldn't worry about going to hell, and kill and screw whoever the pleased, i know iwould.

first u get the money, then u get the Weemen!
Wee men? what the hell are u talking about!
i said woman; no u didn't man!

~Ur PAYING ME IN HAIR CLIPPINGS! WHAT ARE U cRAZY?


--------------------
first u get the money, then u get the Weemen!
Wee men? what the hell are u talking about!
i said woman; no u didn't man!

~Ur PAYING ME IN HAIR CLIPPINGS! WHAT ARE U cRAZY?

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Re: Religion [Re: sir_shroom_alot]
    #405375 -

It's not hell atheist are worried about, its jail, and most logical thinking atheist do have
a conciense(sp)...ex. I wouldn't go out and kill and steal because i wouldn't want it done
to me and i know the consequenses, you have to have respect for fellow man not respect
for god to be a good person.



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Re: Religion [Re: sir_shroom_alot]
    #405377 -

It's not hell atheist are worried about, its jail, and most logical thinking atheist do have a conciense(sp)...ex. I wouldn't go out and kill and steal because i wouldn't want it done to me and i know the consequenses, you have to have respect for fellow man not respect for god to be a good person.



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Re: Religion [Re: MrKurtz]
    #405861 -

>spread love and goodness

ya, it spreads that stuff but it is synthetically spread. lots of things spread love and goodness and they arent synthetic. of course believing that youll go to a magikal made up afterlife if you do good will make you happy!!!

>I wonder why a good number of people hate religion?

i dont hate religion, i just know that i hate the christian religion!! i have read or heard nothing about any other religions, and havent planned to do so in the near future. i also hate the muslim jewish and morman religions!!! these religions are just the "perfect" thing!!! it is one of those subjects that you just dont disrespect and dont "publicly" talk about that often, it is just to be thought about to yourself (relate it to youre life) and to be preached and learn more about not very oftenly (sundays)

>isn't this the kind of thinking that is making drugs illegal today?

i believe that the type of things that make drugs illegal today are the people that cant control themselves and do stupid shit and/or ruin their lives by doing drugs like crack meth heroin etc... now if usama ben laden was a drugie and did this stuff purely because he was insane off of drugs then that might be a reason that they make drugs illegal today (reffering to what you said)

>nicest people you will ever meet

yeah right!!! there all insane old people like crazy housewifes and white trash!!! then the strong people all are like schizophrecic or have their weird little fucked up mental problems!!! the stuff on the outside is just a shell, and the truth is really an insane crazy person that has been scrunched and molded to fit into this society because thats the only way theyre taught and know how to be!!! theyre all fuckin weird and scary!!! and the really religious people (what you reffered to) are so nice because theyre soo faithful and stuck in this imaginary world that because thyre so faithful (and in their mind and obviously yours "perfect") and they know that if there is a heaven they will deffinately be there. if you tell youre self that youre happy all the time and have some backup (even if it is just imaginary) it is still backup and it works!!!!

it begins with an "m" and ends with an "ushroom"

get youre equipment from here!!!
Mushroom Mycology Shop


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the little kridders of nature; they dont know that thyre ugly!


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Re: Religion [Re: aluminum_can]
    #408135 -

"yeah right!!! there all insane old people like crazy housewifes and white trash!!! then the strong people all are like schizophrecic or have their weird little fucked up mental problems!!! the stuff on the outside is just a shell, and the truth is really an insane crazy person that has been scrunched and molded to fit into this society because thats the only way theyre taught and know how to be!!! theyre all fuckin weird and scary!!! and the really religious people (what you reffered to) are so nice because theyre soo faithful and stuck in this imaginary world that because thyre so faithful (and in their mind and obviously yours "perfect") and they know that if there is a heaven they will deffinately be there. if you tell youre self that youre happy all the time and have some backup (even if it is just imaginary) it is still backup and it works!!!! "

yeah, nice stereotyping, you pot head rapist!

"i believe that the type of things that make drugs illegal today are the people that cant control themselves and do stupid shit and/or ruin their lives by doing drugs like crack meth heroin etc... now if usama ben laden was a drugie and did this stuff purely because he was insane off of drugs then that might be a reason that they make drugs illegal today (reffering to what you said) "

yeah.. thats pretty much what i said wasn't it? people abuse drugs, like people abuse religion. and people hate both of them because of it.

"ya, it spreads that stuff but it is synthetically spread. lots of things spread love and goodness and they arent synthetic. of course believing that youll go to a magikal made up afterlife if you do good will make you happy!!! "

what the hell is synthetic happiness? if you don't eliberate on that, i have no clue what your talking about? Are you saying using chemicals to make you see things clearer is less synthetic then believing in something?



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Re: Religion [Re: Surf Bum]
    #408138 -

"It's not hell atheist are worried about, its jail, and most logical thinking atheist do have
a conciense(sp)...ex. I wouldn't go out and kill and steal because i wouldn't want it done
to me and i know the consequenses, you have to have respect for fellow man not respect
for god to be a good person."

Well, if you live in an area like Washington DC or any other major city, you pretty much can't get caught. And, i bet like all of the people comitting these crimes are atheists. Religion gives people something to believe in and hold strong against, if you could do it yourself thats great, but is that a reason to think people who can't suck? Also, religion helps reinforce our belief's in "respect for the common man". Being a good christian means you have both respect for God and respect for the common man.

Whenever things are getting good, people start disbelieving religion. if you choose to disbelieve religion, thats fine, just don't go around saying all christians are crazy assholes fucked in the head. I'm probably more of an atheist then anything else, but i still find the bible fascinating.


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Re: Religion [Re: MrKurtz]
    #410398 -

Well, I am all for love and happiness. The term "goodness" though, I do not agree with. Whats good in one person's opinion is bad in another's. Im sure you can think up plenty of examples to agree with that sentence. I dont like the idea of religion in general. That is because I believe it often hypnotizes people without them knowing it. There are sometimes underlying effects and boundaries religion has on you that you might not notice. Here are also two interesting quotes i came across that give you something to think about.

"Religion works by creating a 'moral' standard, against which no human being could every possibly measure up (nor, most likely, would any want to if they knew what it truly entailed). When the followers of this standard inevitably fail to live up to it, the guilt derived from their 'unworthiness' makes them easy to control."-unknown

"When confronted with this criticism, most mystics reply with, 'Oh, no one expects you to follow every rule in the Bible, you have to live, after all.' In other words, no one would be suicidal enough to follow our doctrines to the letter. So is hypocrisy to be their protector against their professed moral code?" - Paraphrasal of Nathaniel Branden, Mental Health Versus Mysticism

When I became the sun,
I shone life into the man's hearts
-System Of A Down


--------------------
I wanna devise a virus
To bring dire straits to your enviornment
Crush your cooperations with a mild touch
Trash your whole computer system and revert you to papyrus
-Deltron 3030

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Re: Religion [Re: GenicsBreed]
    #410420 -

Personally I think that it would be 'better' if people outgrew their needful dependence upon the entity we call religion, but then that can be said about too many things. Religion is basically a method by which people exert control over others, and people, especially kids sense this intuitively. What it offers up in exchange for obidience is an informal 'community' of mutual support. What I think most people find off-putting about religion is this simple fact: The Followers of any given religion /always believe they are right/ because their doctrine explicitly says so, the priests who intrepret the doctrine say so, and the community of support say so. Jesus said that "No man shall pass into heaven except through me". This means that all other religions are wrong as long as they refuse to acknowledge Jesus as the one true manifestation of god (I used christianity here, though it can just as easily be said for Muslims, Buddhists, Jews...ect ect). This is the old herd-mentality - the In-Group and Out-Group mentality. If you're not with us, you're against us. It's all or nothing (/That/ is the sort of /Intolerance/ that created and sustains the Drug War). To the eyes of the Christian, there can be no validity to any other religion because no other religion is 'through christ'. And again, this can be repeated from the individual point of view of any religion. In the eyes of the religion, all human experience must be channeled through the literal boundaries of their religious texts, and if it is not, then it is sin. The problem with this is that /no-one/ can live up to the estimations of the religious texts, not the people and almost especially not the clerics whos duty it is to interpret the texts themselves.

This is why people 'hate' religion, because of the intolerance of beliefs, the unwillingness to accept exploration of beliefs and the unwillingness to /allow/ people to choose their own path. Because the tactics that religion uses have become so transparent over the past ten mellenia that they're about as good at concealing the King's New Dominion as The King's New Clothes. People reject religion because it teaches you /what/ to think concerning the nature of spiritual reality, rather than how to think about the nature of spiritual reality. It's this aspect of control that wards so many people away.


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Re: Religion [Re: GenicsBreed]
    #410429 -

I guess goodness isn't the right word there... but I think people are getting the point. But whats wrong with a moral standard? I hate when people say "I'm only human" as an excuse for something they did wrong knowingly. Although the rules of religion are very hard to follow, whats wrong with setting goals? Just because most people don't make it through medical school, does it mean no one should try and be a doctor? And, as pretty much everyone fails trying to be a christian, theres something called forgiveness. You can repent your sins, and all is forgiven. Its not hypocrisy exactly, its just trying to improve yourself.


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Re: Religion [Re: Ishmael]
    #410440 -

". Religion is basically a method by which people exert control over others, and people, especially kids sense this intuitively. What it offers up in exchange for obidience is an informal 'community' of mutual support. "

Couldn't the same thing be said of democracy? The majority rules... its human nature.

Although, I agree, it is kind of annoying that religious people sometimes try to force there beliefs upon you. But, you're saying you never tried to force your beliefs on anyone else? I suppose most religious people are religious because they were taught to be that way, but what about people who have found out for themselves they believe in a religion? I suppose what I'm trying to say... why judge people on there methods of spirituality when you're own methods are being questioned so strongly? There are people who abuse there religion, there are people who abuse mind expanding drugs, but don't let abusive people turn you off from an entire group of people.


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Re: Religion [Re: Ishmael]
    #410556 -

what you are saying is not true of buddhism, although many so-called "buddhists" probably think in this way.


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Re: Religion [Re: MrKurtz]
    #410715 -

Yes, you could say that Democracy is the same thing, and some people /do/ say this. It is the self-percieved strong sheparding the percieved weak through the valley of temptation and judgement. As for trying to force my beliefs...I can't say that such isn't how I've come across. My beliefs are my beliefs, but the very forum that is inclusive for most of my discussions isn't so much about /swaying/ public opinion into your arena insomuch as it is a method for all people to express their opinions. Much like this forum here. I don't try to convert anyone, I don't believe that there is any single right way for all people to live, worship or exist. I simply express my beliefs and let the weight of what I say influence people...or not influence them. But religion doesn't think that way, especially organized religion. The preaching mentality is what puts most people off to religion (and that is the question I'm trying to answer, not spark more debate about the nature of the question), the mentality of there being that single method of human existance that is the absolute /best/ way a human can exist. And perhaps what is /more/ off-putting is when the assertions of the ideals are in direct opposition with evidence. I'm not condoning or advocating hate towards religion, I'm simply saying why it is that people /do hate/ religion. I honestly don't feel any of the hate myself, coming from a background in buddhism, but I know /why/ it is there and the source of it. I think that's the question here and that's whats important.

Now the periphial debate on if we can (or more importantly, should) consider 'Buddhism' to be inclusive into the category of 'religion'. Alan Watts mused that either Buddhism is the most psychological religion or the most religious psychology. I agree with his non-biased approach. I know a great many 'True Buddhist' who utilize buddhism the same way that most Christians utilize Christianity - and that is trying to secure and assure some tangible foothold in the after-life.
In fact, in India, it is not uncommon for practicing 'buddhists' (I include the quotes to further emphasize that even when you're in a religion, you have your own idea of what a true religious person in the context of your religion must behave like. That there can be true and un-true buddhists for example) to disregard a person in need, dismissing their plight as an act of their own 'bad karma' and thusly none of their responsibility. They focus upon themselves only and upon /their/ plight and thus foster ego rather than attempt to quell it (I am sure that they would probably view most western versions of 'Buddhists' with as much contempt as we do them. We are likely not 'true' in their eyes which simply shows that there is no 'true' version except perhaps the original).

When I talk to buddhists about the similarities of their religion with those of other religions, what I'm struck most by is the absolute refusal of these normally rational individuals to focus on similarities rather than differences - especially when the similarities are so central and the differences so periphial. The similarity that most strikes me as a recurring theme through all of these religions is the theme of 'Salvation'. We all probably understand salvation in the traditional judeo-christian sense, but Salvation also plays a large role in buddhism. Only here it is called 'Liberation'. Now I am fully aware that the actual goal of buddhism isn't merely the liberation of consciousness at death, but also the refuting of ego within this lifetime and the understanding of the nature of suffering that comes with it. But what I see in many buddhists isn't that same understanding, but rather, taking it on as just another method of salvation.

In all methods of these methods and teachings, mankind is born into sin (In buddhism, born into a hellish world of suffering) and because of this tragic mishap, must postrate himself to dieties (many buddhist worship Hindu dieties and many others worship representations of long deceased enlightened masters) through ritual so that he can be freed (Liberated) from this tarnished existance to rise to some ultimate after-life point of bliss and eternal happiness (Nirvana). Again, I realize that to everyone who has ever put any effort into studying buddhism and its practices, this is a rather glib interpretation, but I know that you understand exactly what I mean. People take only what they want from religion. They're not wrong in doing so. As I have said and continue to say, there isn't any right way to worship. They're just doing what they believe they must as humans.

Again, to refocus on the question, the reason that most people 'hate' religion is because all religions advocate themselves as the 'true' path. That there is one 'righteous' path and all others are just delusion, temptation, illusion or deception. I guess to distill /that/, people resent religions and their followers because they do not seem to have any sense of objectivity concerning their beliefs (they can't take a step back and acknowledge the similarities between what they're saying and what others say, rather, continually point back to the differences).

There's no one right way to do anything. Find what works best for you, just don't expect it to work for anyone else. In the strange attractor of life, people can come close to repeating the same pattern, but never completely replicate it.

Ish


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Re: Religion [Re: MrKurtz]
    #410728 -

The major religions of mankind, now and throughout the history of mankind, have almost invariably fostered an impression of selectivity - a theme that those holding to the beliefs taught, or those strictly adhering to the practices required, will be selected for special treatment both before and after death. Of course this is entirely false, and purported only to secure and hold adherents. Christians are told that a few words spoken by a member of the religious elite, along with a sprinkling of water blessed by these same religious elite, is the ticket to heaven. I am speaking here of baptism. Absence of these steps damns non-Christians to hell. What nonsense. Does the entity not earn their future path by the steps taken? Whom does such a belief benefit? Look to this to understand why this falsehood is promulgated. Those most insistent on holding out false hopes of an easy road in the future are those who benefit most directly from widespread belief - the religious elite, who in most cases are charging for their services.

Just so, throughout history, religious elites have required that their enemies be persecuted and eliminated, their bed be feathered, their followers submit to sexual advances, and their coffers be filled - all in the name of a glorious future for the faithful followers.


There is no right or wrong religion, only ignorant or enlightened practices.


Edited by Shroomism on 10/02/01 12:15 AM.


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Re: Religion [Re: MrKurtz]
    #410754 -

synthetic happiness = suburban life(stereotype)

Every seen the movie "American Beauty" that is synthetic happiness. The beginning of the movie anyway, not the end.

Organized religion promotes conformity. Those that are different are shunned. How do I know this? Well I was shunned from a good number of churches because my beleifs were not the same as everyone elses and they strayed from the artistic vision of the bible. I have met many many christians throughout my life time, and I have only met a very few that are actually good people, most are polite to your face, but when you turn away are the most ravenous of people. I don't knock on someones spirituality, thats something sacred, but religion is something different entirely. Now I'm not atheist, I'm a very spiritual person, but religion in and of itself is too restrictive to be worth anyone's time. The only religions I can stand are the self-made religions, that only have one member (the creator)

Don't beleive everything you know.
For supplies: Dr Bluethumb
For spores: FSR


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Vote Jonnyshaggs in the next election for GOD...Its the responsible choice

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Re: Religion [Re: jonnyshaggs420]
    #410774 -

Amen!


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Re: Religion [Re: Ishmael]
    #410873 -

what are you a writer or something?

i wish i could write down what i think as clearly as you do. anyway i absolutely agree with everything you have said. hear hear!


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Re: Religion [Re: Traveller]
    #410917 -

I personaly dispise all religions because its all mental pollution no-one can ever be truly free, same old story everyone pays because some lying bastard had a repressed up bringing


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Re: Religion [Re: Ishmael]
    #410980 -

Lots of paranoia here bud, in your post and in the responses. Fear breeds hatred. Blanket statements about Christians - or any other group is simple bigotry. It is irrational. No one knows a ALL the people of any group. Just because people tag themselves as something doesn't necessarily mean they ARE that tag. I am a Christain and I have long recognized the validity of tenets of other faiths. Christianity's doctrines are specific, but they open up into universal Truth. When Jesus says "I am the Way..." He is referring to the Logos - the aspect of God's Uncreated Nature which impinges upon human existence. The Logos operates in many faiths (if you believe that It spoke through Balaam's jackass, for example, you can believe that God speaks through many mouths). If you still picture a long-haired, beared 1st century Jew when you read the Words of Jesus the Christ (to be "in Christ" is to be caught up in a whole new level of Being - to be aware of the Eternal while yet in the body), then you are not understanding the phenomenon of the Incarnation doctrine. Remember this: "Many are called, but few are chosen." The imperialistic doctrines of man that condemn are not the Teachings of Christ. Spiritual scriptures are recognized to be in levels by Jewish scholars: the literal (historical), the allegorical ("I am the vine, you are the branches"), the symbolic and the mystical. Only simpletons take scripture as literal across the board. It's a matter of discernment, which comes through spiritual maturity. I think you are disgusted with a world of literalists. Join the club.



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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Religion [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #411134 -

You're quite right, I don't think any mystical experience or mode of divine relation can be expressed in a literal sense. Any attempt to do so is an attempt to sterilize, cogitate and otherwise impose the method and rigor of ego /onto/ the experience. That is not to say that one cannot derive realization and understanding from a spiritual experience simply because these are mental activities, it means that the depth is something that can only be self-relative.

When Christ speaks (or is quoted as speaking), allegorically, literally or otherwise about the nature of his connection to 'his father' he is trying to verbalize an experience and condition which is neccesarily beyond the scope of words (language isn't setup to convey meanings of these sorts). Certainly what he says is provacative, but its only through actual personal experience with that level of being that true understanding of any of the implied meaning can be derived. And what I believe many people percieve is that the frame-work of religion isn't setup to propogate that sort of /experience/, which is perhaps exactly what they want and need.

You see priests advocating that people be 'more like Jesus' and handing out little bracelets with keen slogons on them, but if you ask a priest the method by which you could experience what Jesus was trying to convey through words, you would probably get a blank stare and an answer like 'Read your scripture' or perhaps 'Join a monastary/nunnery'. This is because the edifice of /religion/ isn't setup for the mystic who is actually trying to increase his or her depth of experience or level of spiritual maturity. It is setup for exactly the sorts of people who have been deemed literalist here. Let me put that another way just so I am clear. Standard religion (the kind you get at your local church, mosk or temple) is not about dissemination of religious /experience/, its about the dissemination of religious /doctrine/. It's about spreading beliefs and not about spreading experience. I am not arguing that it is impossible to derive any sort of personal meaning, reflection over even a full-blown spiritual experience from the bible, I am certain that you can! Many monks, nuns and mystics (William Blake would fall into this latter category) do and continue to do so to this day. But the 99.9% of the world that are not monks, nuns or mystics are still practicing /religion/ and getting only doctrine and a vauge sense of fellowship from it.

The point that is being argued is the reason behind why people revile religion, and that seems to me to be because when people go to church they're yearning for some sort of personal connection to the divine (that 'religious experience' where it all makes sense and everything becomes clear), one that isn't manifested because the priests arn't taught to /try/ to produce such a state of ecstasy. Their goal isn't religious imancipation through divine connection (such a thing would automatically put them out of a job), it is conversion and always has been. They are not evil for trying to convert people and place them safely under the sway of doctrine, they believe they are serving the utmost good! But it is exactly that method and gravitation towards assimilation that makes people so damned wary of the whole scope of 'religion'. Again, just so I am clear, I am not striking at the validity of any singular religious entity or doctrine of beliefs. I am trying to point out that when we talk about religion, this is what most people seem to percieve - someone (or a group of someones) who feels it is their moral obligation to do everything in their power to 'save' every 'soul'. I'm not trying to say this is 'good' or 'bad', I'm just saying that this is what /is/.

Ish


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Re: Religion [Re: ]
    #411773 -

"The major religions of mankind, now and throughout the history of mankind, have almost invariably fostered an impression of selectivity - a theme that those holding to the beliefs taught, or those strictly adhering to the practices required, will be selected for special treatment both before and after death. Of course this is entirely false"

Did anyone else find this as funny as I did?

As for religious people believing there faith is the only right one... doesn't it make sense that if you believe in something you tend to believe its right?

Ishmael, you're pretty much right. But, I guess it just bothers me when people are intolerant towards people who they believe to be intolerant. The Bible is a beautiful piece of work, just like every other religious work I've read.


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Re: Religion [Re: MrKurtz]
    #412052 -

I am a deeply religious person, open to the spirituality of life, yet i reject any institutionalised religion. I am an atheist who happens to believe in god.

Thought is born blind but Mind knows what is Seeing


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Thought is born blind but Mind knows what is Seeing

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Re: Religion [Re: BBin]
    #412074 -

I don't think you mean what you just said. Atheism is by definition: belief that no God exists(Oxford Dictionary). Therefore an atheist would be a person that believes no God exists. Not sure what someone who believes in God but rejects any institutional religion, but I'm sure it's not atheist. Anyone know if there's a specific name for this?



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Men can only be happy when they do not assume that the object of life is happiness.
-- George Owell

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Re: Religion [Re: MokshaMan]
    #412237 -

deist...

old enough to know better
not old enough to care


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old enough to know better
not old enough to care

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Re: Religion [Re: MokshaMan]
    #412334 -

..ever heard of 'paradox'? perhaps possibly maybe
anyway, i bow down to your great knowledge of Words, which however great, was insufficient to grasp the meaning hiding behind mine. ;p

Thought is born blind but Mind knows what is Seeing


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Thought is born blind but Mind knows what is Seeing

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