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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked...
    #1200171 - 01/08/03 10:13 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Then the world would have actually changed and progressed in regards to human love and compassion, but it hasn't.

If Jesus or Buddha or Mohammed (substitute your favorite God-Messenger) each taught thousands and of that group, two people truly got "it", and those people taught many more and of those, two people got "it", it would only take about 31 generations (2^31) or 775 years (31*25) to enlighten the world.

You may also substitute mushrooms (or other plant/chemical of choice) and the same net effect is zero.

End of story.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Swami]
    #1200193 - 01/08/03 10:21 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

and those people taught many more and of those, two people got "it", it would only take about 31 generations (2^31) or 775 years (31*25) to enlighten the world.

You forget that most people are really dumb.

The enlightened - degenerate ratio will pretty much stay at the current 1:100 and that's by design and just the way things should be...



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InvisibleMountainMist
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Registered: 01/01/03
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Swami]
    #1200257 - 01/08/03 10:51 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Excellent point, Swami. I have often thought the same thing myself.

In order to be absolutely fair, though, we need to apply the same condemnation to every other system of thought designed to enlighten the human race, including philosophy itself. Has the Enlightenment really saved the world, or saved the human race from itself? Nope. Has Communism? Nope. Has ANY political philosophy enlightened the whole world? One cursory glance at the world today will suggest the answer is no. Neither has any non-political philosophical system.

The only ideology/belief-system that has shown itself to work consistently regardless of whether people "believe" in it or not is scientific materialism. But when I say "work" I only mean that in the utilitarian sense of usefulness as a tool, as a means of getting things done or predicting things. But in terms of enlightening the entire human race, saving humanity from human stupidity, it hasn't done that either--in fact, it has given human stupidity ever more powerful tools with which to do itself in.

So I think the conclusion to be drawn is that the human race up until now has been missing something. And if there ARE people who have truly gotten it, they have remained in a very distinct minority.


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Offlineundecided
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Registered: 01/04/03
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: MountainMist]
    #1200287 - 01/08/03 11:05 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

You can lead a horse to water, but you cant make him drink. Is that familar?

Anyways, the two people who actually "get it", will probably end up murdered by the majority who have some other interpretation of the religion.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: undecided]
    #1200302 - 01/08/03 11:12 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

So true, the failure of religion points to human shortcomings if anything.

Religion can make us better human beings but it can't make human beings better.


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Swami]
    #1200453 - 01/08/03 12:15 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Going by this logic shouldnt the whole world have syphillis by now as well? :grin:  surely that would spread in the same manner, plus its much more contagious than enlightenment!! 


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Always Smi2le


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Registered: 07/13/99
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: GazzBut]
    #1200487 - 01/08/03 12:23 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Going by this logic shouldnt the whole world have syphillis by now as well? surely that would spread in the same manner, plus its much more contagious than enlightenment!!

I don't think [fucking = talking] is very valid.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Swami]
    #1200525 - 01/08/03 12:30 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Evolution works slow to human eyes.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: GazzBut]
    #1200558 - 01/08/03 12:39 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Going by this logic shouldnt the whole world have syphillis by now as well?

*Self-administers penicilin shot* Um, what were you saying?


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSmack31
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Registered: 06/17/02
Posts: 10,680
Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Swami]
    #1200626 - 01/08/03 01:00 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

the problem is... and the 'lead a horse to water, can't make him drink' comment pretty much says it, you can only take a person so far. it's up to that person from that point... they have to look within. they have to get it on their own.


Edited by Smack31 (01/08/03 01:01 PM)


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InvisibleRevelation

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Registered: 08/04/01
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Smack31]
    #1200642 - 01/08/03 01:04 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Exactly. This type of information can't be passed on from one being to another (as far as I know).


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Revelation]
    #1201010 - 01/08/03 02:38 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Let me trim that down a bit...

It can be learned, but not taught. Right?


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Sclorch]
    #1201437 - 01/08/03 04:54 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Yes, because ultimately it comes from within you.


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Swami]
    #1201494 - 01/08/03 05:10 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... Then the world would have actually changed and progressed in regards to human love and compassion, but it hasn't.



Maybe that's because of the taboo against the concept of love in human society. I will give a few examples:

"Look at those two guys hugging, they must be homosexual."

"Look at that old man showing physical affection to his grand-daughter... I bet he's a pedophile."

"That guy goes around talking about this 'love your fellow man' stuff... I bet he's in some kind of cult."

If Jesus was alive today, he would be put in a mental institution... the modern, civilized way to shut the people who are different up.

I hope you can get the general idea of these very typical judgements that have been made within society for thousands of years. Most of the time I don't even think these judgements occur at a very conscious level, because we are not very conscious beings. I think the main problem is that our human nature still equates the word "love" with the physical expression of love, most likely due to the widespread desentization of modern times... But it is most likely a combination of things...

The taboo against loving your fellow human is very great in a world where a compassionate person is looked upon with suspicion and disgust.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Swami]
    #1201559 - 01/08/03 05:25 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

A Biblical metaphor for enlightnment is "a pearl of great price," a rare and beautiful thing to be sought after. A Buddhist metaphor is the rarity of enlightenment that is compared to a bird that drags a silk ribbon over a mountain once every 100 (1000, whatever) years, and a truly enlightened one does not appear until the mountain has been worn down. Ridiculous of course, but they like to stress the need for zillions of purifying rebirths before liberation. Vajrayana Buddhists concede the possibility in a single lifetime, as do Christians, but rarity of enlightenment is still the point. It is not taught, it is the result of God's grace or the annihilation of karma, respectively. In both cases, it is not a matter of human desire as it is of cosmic agency howsoever conceived as personal or lawful.

The individuals that you mention are not mere teachers in their respective traditions. They are exponents of Ultimate Reality, in human form.

Do not forget the negative side of reality: evil, entropy, 'devolution' from the spiritual to the material. Generally speaking, it is easier to lose energy than to gain energy, to fall asleep than to awaken. In one sense, to seek enlightenment is contrary to nature, in another sense it is supernatural in the meaning of transcending the natural inclination. And where else would the energy required in such a closed system come from, if not from a 'higher' dimension, so-to-speak? Perhaps like photons spontaneously appearing within every cubic foot of space-time, the 'blessed' receive 'grace,' 'uncreated energy,' 'serpent power,' etc. from the Matter-Mater-Matrix of all - namely God.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Anonymous

Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Adamist]
    #1201571 - 01/08/03 05:27 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Jesus was supposedly nailed to the cross..doesn't that show the human race can't handle complete 'enlightenment' yet? This goes with millions of different hateful situations on this earth.
And going by the basis of your theory Swami, you'd have to believe in an EGOgod for such power not to be true.
The TRUTH has been kept secret and hushed for a very long time. We are just now starting to accept things and letting go of our side that wants to achieve then destroy it all.


Edited by Anonymous (01/08/03 05:28 PM)


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Adamist]
    #1201595 - 01/08/03 05:31 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Sorry People,

I ain't buying your arguments. After ALL the teachers and ALL the scriptures and ALL the mind-manifesting drug trips and ALL the meditation and the 100 billion man-hours spent in church, synagogue, and temple; we are no further along now than any time in the past.

So are you guys telling me that all of this is so that 0.0000000001% of the population might get it? Not very convincing. Sounds like the proverbial blind leading the blind. Am I the only one who thinks it just might be a waste of time?

The number of spontaneous awakenings (if they exist) would probably happen anyway without any forced methodology.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisiblemr crisper
.

Registered: 07/25/00
Posts: 928
Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: GazzBut]
    #1201609 - 01/08/03 05:33 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

i think the syph comparison was excellent. i noticed swami crossed his legs, stings does it?
diseases have their life cycles, germinate - growth - decay, as do ideas, philosophies, political ideologies, empires, civilisations, plagues, religions.


i'm was sitting in a ripping earthquake as i wrote the above, it kinda broke my concentration.  :confused: 


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Swami]
    #1201612 - 01/08/03 05:34 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Sorry People, I ain't buying your arguments. 


Sorry Swami, I wasn't selling... must you always assume that I am?  :smirk:

Quote:

So are you guys telling me that all of this is so that 0.0000000001% of the population might get it?


No.   


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1201615 - 01/08/03 05:34 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

You forget that most people are really dumb.
You can say this and you have read how many of my posts?

The enlightened - degenerate ratio will pretty much stay at the current 1:100 and that's by design and just the way things should be...
Is this like the Coca-Cola carbonated water to syrup ratio?



--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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