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Anonymous

Islam, religion of peace?
    #1419491 - 03/31/03 09:47 AM (14 years, 1 day ago)

This is not a thread about Christianity.  Nor is it a thread about the Jewish religion.  It is a thread about Islam.  I hear a lot of people tout how 'peaceful' Islam is.  And how we just don't understand it.  These scriptures, taken from its Holy Writ, The Koran are probably a better indicator of what the religion is about than the misguided ramblings of well-meaning people who have never picked up the Koran.  I own several copies.

From these scriptures, taken from the Koran, I think it is very clear that Islam is a violent religion bend on the destruction of those who don't follow it.


"Kill the disbelievers wherever we find them" (Koran 2:191)

"Ye are the best of peoples evolved for mankind." (Koran 3:110)

"The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and his messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be to be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet and genitals cut off, or to be expelled out of the land. Such will be their humiliation in the world, and in the next world they will face an awful horror." (Koran, 5:33-34)

"Not to make friendship with Jews and Christians" (Koran 5:51)

"Remember Allah inspired the angels: I am with you. Give firmness to the believers. I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: you smite them above their necks and smite all their fingertips off of them." (Koran, 8:12)

"In order that Allah may separate the pure from the impure, put all the impure ones [all non-Muslims] one on top of another in a heap and cast them into hell. They will have been the ones to have lost." (Koran, 8:37)

"If there are twenty amongst you, you will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, you will vanquish a thousand of them [infidels]" (Koran 8:65).

Allah and his messenger announce that it is acceptable to go back on our promises (treaties) and obligations with Pagans and make war on them whenever we find ourselves strong enough to do so (Koran 9:3)

"Fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem" (Koran 9:5)

Our God tells us to "fight the unbelievers" and "He will punish them by our hands, cover them with shame and help us (to victory) over them" (Koran 9:14).

"Until they pay the Jizya [a penalty tax for the non-Muslims living under Islamic rules] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued" (Koran 9:29)

"Unless we go forth, (for Jihad) He will punish us with a grievous penalty, and put others in our place" (9:39).

"O Prophet! Make war against the unbelievers [all non-Muslims] and the hypocrites and be merciless against them. Their home is hell, an evil refuge indeed." (Koran, 9:73)

"Murder them and treat them harshly" (Koran 9:123)

"When you meet the unbelievers in jihad [holy war], chop off their heads. And when you have brought them low, bind your prisoners rigorously. Then set them free or take ransom from them until the war is ended." (Koran, 47:40)

"When we decide to destroy a population, we send a definite order to them who have the good things in life and yet sin. So that Allah's word is proven true against them, then we destroy them utterly." (Koran, 17:16-17)

"How many were the populations we utterly destroyed because of their sins, setting up in their place other peoples." (Koran, 21:11)

"strike off the heads of the disbelievers" (Koran 47:4)

"Seize ye him, and bind ye him, And burn ye him in the Blazing Fire. Further, make him march in a chain, whereof the length is seventy cubits! This was he that would not believe in Allah Most High. And would not encourage the feeding of the indigent! So no friend hath he here this Day. Nor hath he any food except the corruption from the washing of wounds, Which none do eat but those in sin." (Koran 69:30-37)

Praise be to Allah  :smirk:
 


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Invisiblewhiterasta
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Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: ]
    #1419498 - 03/31/03 10:00 AM (14 years, 1 day ago)

Damn they sound a lot like most "christians" also.Why do the religions surounding peaceful prophets seem to turn destructive,even Bhuddists have had their squabbles.I stand by what I tell the jojobas witnesses"organized religion is the tool of evil" WR


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Offlinecherokee
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Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: ]
    #1419623 - 03/31/03 12:28 PM (14 years, 1 day ago)

Thank you very much for pointing out those passages, now I have something to spring up on people. I think left alone man is rather peaceful but when an organized government/religion steps in all things go to hell. These institutions cause people to forgote the ultimate truth(we're all humans) and take sides. Take countries: What are countries? They're nothing more than a piece of cloth, yet government makes us take sides and wage war on each other.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: ]
    #1419700 - 03/31/03 01:21 PM (14 years, 1 day ago)

A violent religion indeed, as is Christianity and even Judaism.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: ]
    #1419727 - 03/31/03 01:32 PM (14 years, 1 day ago)

The Koran, like the Bible, has been edited by the pens of MEN over the years, and thus, it's message has been altered. Read with your heart, and see through the things that have been put there to cause confusion, separation, fear, and other elements of the darkness.


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Anonymous

Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: Shroomism]
    #1419782 - 03/31/03 01:59 PM (14 years, 1 day ago)

As I said before this thread is about Islam, not the other two religions.

One correction on Biblical text though. It has not had the revision that many think it has. While the autographs are not extant we do have papyri that date back to within 30 years of the autographs creation. The scribes who copied them weren't error free but they are nearly perfect in their tranlation.

I don't know enough about Islamic textual criticism to offer an informed opinion. But if the texts above are accurate they paint Islam in a very bad light.

Cheers,


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OfflineMurex
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Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: ]
    #1419914 - 03/31/03 03:26 PM (14 years, 1 day ago)

I wonder what that Zahid guy has to say about this.  :blush:


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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OfflineDogomush
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Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: Murex]
    #1420183 - 03/31/03 07:01 PM (14 years, 1 day ago)

One correction on Biblical text though. It has not had the revision that many think it has. While the autographs are not extant we do have papyri that date back to within 30 years of the autographs creation. The scribes who copied them weren't error free but they are nearly perfect in their tranlation.

So the bible started fucked up? hehehe


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Offlinefriartuck
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Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: Dogomush]
    #1420307 - 03/31/03 08:24 PM (14 years, 1 day ago)

The Muslims = the angry hand of God that will strike down on the unbelievers. Allah's got nuts. He isn't fucking around anymore, you all done pissed him off.


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: ]
    #1420404 - 03/31/03 09:24 PM (14 years, 1 day ago)

This will probably be alot more interesting than debating with a fundamentalist Christian; who will often remain intentionally ignorant. Mr_Mushrooms, you desire elaboration on the listed surahs, and I will clarify each revelation to you, and what the proper context is. One must also understand that the Qur'an in english is not a translation of the Arabic Qur'an, it is only an interpretation. Also note, that for many verses in the Qur'aan; to understand it in its full context, previous or following verses must be included.

"Kill the disbelievers wherever we find them" (Koran 2:191)

Let's start with Surah 2:190. 'Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits, for God loveth not transgressors'. In this section of the Qur'an (and many others) you will find revelations that were revealed either during a time of war, or in the context of war. This verse (2:191) is directed to Muslims who are currently engaged in armed struggle. It is quite clear in the Qur'an that you have to be attacked first before you enter battle/wage an attack, et cet era.

"Ye are the best of peoples evolved for mankind." (Koran 3:110)

Hardly a violent verse, and yes; the Qur'an does say those who love God are the best of humanity - I don't argue with that.

"The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and his messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be to be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet and genitals cut off, or to be expelled out of the land. Such will be their humiliation in the world, and in the next world they will face an awful horror." (Koran, 5:33-34)

See my response to Surah 2:191.

Correction; 'The punishment of those who wage war against God and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: Execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: That is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter.' (5.33) 'Except for those who repent before they fall into your power: In that case, forgive them, because God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.'(5.34)

"Not to make friendship with Jews and Christians" (Koran 5:51)

The Qur'an does distance itself from the Judeo-Christian tradition for certain reasons. One must consider what Christianity is, and what the revelation of Islam is essentially. Much of this boils down to the fact Christians worship Jesus Christ as the Son of God, while Muslims worship God directly, and deny Jesus was divine (he has prophet status in Islam). A Muslim friend of mine once commented in a discussion about extremist Christians (he's moderate, by the way) "If I were a Christian, I'd be insulted by Islam too". What does the verse really mean though? Something like...Muslims, be aware of the Christians and Jews. They will not take kindly to you, as they believe you do not worship the same, one true God. But they are ignorant, so be compassionate to those who treat you well. (In fact, there is a verse in the Qur'an that commands us to be compassionate with Jews and Christians). It's a heads-up, because Islam totally contradicts Judaism and Christianity. Ever notice how people like Jerry Falwell practically wince at the utterance of anything Islamic?

"In order that Allah may separate the pure from the impure, put all the impure ones [all non-Muslims] one on top of another in a heap and cast them into hell. They will have been the ones to have lost." (Koran, 8:37)

Lets take out that 'all non-Muslims' in brackets, because it's not in the Qur'an. This is a well defined Hell-verse, common in any abrahamic faith. The pure are those who love God, and impure are those who rejected God, and above all of that, hell doesn't even exist.

Allah and his messenger announce that it is acceptable to go back on our promises (treaties) and obligations with Pagans and make war on them whenever we find ourselves strong enough to do so (Koran 9:3)

Correction; 'And an announcement from God and His Messenger, to the people (Assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage- That God and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the pagans. If, then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate God. And proclaim a grievous penalty for those who reject faith. (9.3)

Our God tells us to "fight the unbelievers" and "He will punish them by our hands, cover them with shame and help us (to victory) over them" (Koran 9:14).

See my response to verse 2:191.

Correction; 'Fight them, and God will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you to victory over them, heal the breasts of Believers, (9.14) and still the indignation of their hearts. For God will turn in mercy to whom He will; and God is All-knowing, All-wise.' (9.15)

"Until they pay the Jizya [a penalty tax for the non-Muslims living under Islamic rules] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued" (Koran 9:29)

The jizya is often misinterpreted - the payment of Jizya is for the non-Muslims living under the rule of a caliphate to recieve the protection of the Muslim army, and to exclude themselves from joining and serving in the Muslim army.

"Seize ye him, and bind ye him, And burn ye him in the Blazing Fire. Further, make him march in a chain, whereof the length is seventy cubits! This was he that would not believe in Allah Most High. And would not encourage the feeding of the indigent! So no friend hath he here this Day. Nor hath he any food except the corruption from the washing of wounds, Which none do eat but those in sin." (Koran 69:30-37)

This verse has absolutely nothing to do with earthly life. This verse is describing an unfaithful human in the next life.

I did not directly address all the Surahs you posted as many of them are very similiar in nature, and fall under the same context (of interpretation) as described in my reponse to the rather infamous Surah 2:191.


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Anonymous

Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: Zahid]
    #1420450 - 03/31/03 10:01 PM (14 years, 1 day ago)

Thanks Zahid.

Since I am unfamiliar with Islam in comparison to you I can only factor in your interpretation to the rest of the knowledge that I have. Islam, just like Christianity, has many factions and many interpretations of their Holy Writ.

Obviously there are Muslims who interpret it differently than you do or they wouldn't be flying planes into buildings in the United States.

Satisfy my curiosity one more time if you will. When did you convert? Under what circumstances did you convert? And are you of Middle Eastern extraction?

If you would have anyone else become Muslim here's your chance. There is no more powerful incentive to convert to a religion than the testimony of convert. I am very interested in your story.


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OfflineSlapnutRob
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Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: ]
    #1420591 - 03/31/03 11:46 PM (14 years, 1 day ago)

I myself have become somewhat more educated than your average American on Islam, mostly because I go to the University of Michigan-Dearborn. Dearborn, Michigan has I believe the highest Arab population in all of US. I have met and associated with many Arab Muslims and I have found them to be very friendly, well-informed, and peaceful people. This especially goes for the women, who are unfairly thought to be oppressed by many Americans (Ever notice some of them don't cover their hair? It's their choice). After reading some text on understanding Islam, and being an atheist at this point, I have found more reason to believe in Islam than in Christianity. I mean this in no way to bash Christianity or Christian believers, however. For those who are reading this who don't know, the Qu'ran is said to be the literal word of God, spoken to Mohammed from the Angel Gabriel. Mohammed was an illiterate uneducated man who supposedly spoke with literate men and had them write the Qu'ran, and supposedly he went over it and over it with the Angel Gabriel until it was just right. What I find the most interesting about The Qu'ran is that it reasonable describes and/or alludes to the real scientific explanation of fetal development, clouds, mountains, seas and rivers, and even the origin of the universe. Many prominent scientific figures have even expressed astonishment at how these things were written down thousands of years before the technology to learn them was created. Also, one thing that I found very interesting in some text was the reference to a verse of Deuteronomy in which God tells Moses what his final prophet will be like, and after doing research, one can find his description fits Mohammed unbelievably well. Elaborating would take forever, so do some research and/or ask Zahid and I'm sure much of this can be verified.


--------------------
Anything stated above is fictional roleplay dialog by the character that is Slapnut Rob, in no way representing the actions or beliefs of the man behind the keys.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: ]
    #1421542 - 04/01/03 02:22 PM (14 years, 10 hours ago)

Quote:

Obviously there are Muslims who interpret it differently than you do or they wouldn't be flying planes into buildings in the United States.



Or it could just be that they're pissed off at the U.S. for what we've done to them.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineTurbulence
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Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1421599 - 04/01/03 05:01 PM (14 years, 8 hours ago)

The Holy Qur'an is one message to every person on this earth. It has only one version, because it has only one author, Allah. It remains unchanged to this day. Unlike most other theological texts, the Holy Qur'an exists in one form unchanged throughout the world.

The opression muslims have to face all over the world everyday is something very hard for the average western mind to understand. Muslims are easily labelled as terrorists. Unfortunately , what is failed to realise is that the muslims are doing exactly what the westerners have led them to do. Palestine is a perfect example of the opression muslims have to deal with. Jewish well armed soldiers are wiping off palestinian neighbourhoods daily, but only when an israeli dies does the news crews report anything. Suicide bombers are called terrorists, but what are the israelis to the palestinians? or the americans to iraq? The bigger terrorists to the muslims are the western forces. It has been so for a very long time, only it is much clearer now. Sept 11th rocked our whole continent of North AMerica, but we fail to realise that thanks to american/allied support, israel has been succesful to accomplish several 9/11 scale incidents everyday upon poorly armed soldiers and their families in palestine. As the americans prepare to shell off 2/3 of their Tomahawk cruise missiles into baghdad, muslims are still looked upon as the terrorist. The excuse for the crusade againts the muslims is this, Terrorism and sept 11th. THe upcoming events in the near future will reshape the world we live in. One thing is for certain, unfortunate and unarmed muslims will die in great numbers all over the world, all for one large misunderstanding shaped by the western minds.


--------------------
Black Dog in a world of pigs, waiting for the wolves.....




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OfflineZahid
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Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: ]
    #1421631 - 04/01/03 05:21 PM (14 years, 7 hours ago)

Never thought you would ask. :-)

I converted to Islam very shortly after the September 11th attacks on America; because prior to 9/11, I didn't know the first thing about Islam - in fact, I didn't even know the name of the religion's founder. To me, Islam was just another religion of the eastern world. I always compared Islam with religions like Hinduism, as opposed to Christianity.

At this exact time (I was 17) LSD became available in Neepawa, the small rural town I live in which was quite a surprise to all of us. At first, I was kind of toying with Islam. I was hyper interested in it, I was reading everything I could on it, but at first I distanced myself because of how conservative it was. Then again, Islam made perfect sense to me. I had long ago left Christianity and until then I was an atheist; that is, until I humbled myself before Allah. You could say the first thing that made me buy a book about Islam was curiousity, as I was very intrigued by the religion of the terrorists...very quickly, I learned Islam was not a faith of terror.

I didn't really believe in Islam until I had my very first insanity trip when I underestimated the potency of some acid that was in town - I took like six hits of this stuff when I would have been fine with three or four. I don't really remember much from this trip, it was well over a year ago. I only recall having having a religious experience for the first time. Almost every other trip down the road would confirm this experience. It's...an experience, a hyper awareness of ultimate reality. Markos calls it gnosis, I call it al-Ghayb.

Alot of people say finding God is over dramatic... it isn't, it's a time and place in the world that that person will never forget - it's when that person finds the roots of eternal love, and when all there's left to do on earth is to live, and wait.


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Offlineshaggy101
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Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: Zahid]
    #1421839 - 04/01/03 07:29 PM (14 years, 5 hours ago)

Hello, excuse my ignorance as I have only read portions of the Koran, but could you tell me are there any books of prophecy? What do muslims believe about the end time?
Why do you think Mohammed(sp?) is the final prophet?
Am I wrong that Islam also considers Jesus a prophet?
Islam is the religion I have studied least..It would be cool if you could inform me alittle.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: Zahid]
    #1421899 - 04/01/03 08:12 PM (14 years, 4 hours ago)

Quote:

it's when that person finds the roots of eternal love, and when all there's left to do on earth is to live, and wait. 




:smile:


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Anonymous

Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: Zahid]
    #1421917 - 04/01/03 08:24 PM (14 years, 4 hours ago)

You make me laugh Zahid.

It is Muslims Translating the Quran from Arabic to English. So the Interpretation is a translation.

You say to take out the non-muslim statements, but only MUSLIMs are following GODS LAWS, so you might as well leave them in correct.

Islam does not totally contradict Judaism, it modifies it. You can't completely disassociate the text your text is based on. No matter how hard your prophet tried.

























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Offlinefriartuck
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Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: Seuss]
    #1421928 - 04/01/03 08:32 PM (14 years, 4 hours ago)

I agree. That is exactly what I'm looking for.

>it's when that person finds the roots of eternal love, and when all there's left to do on earth is to live, and wait.



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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: shaggy101]
    #1421938 - 04/01/03 08:41 PM (14 years, 4 hours ago)

Just two things,
First. Mr_Mushrooms you wrote,
"This is not a thread about Christianity. Nor is it a thread about the Jewish religion...
...
"Not to make friendship with Jews and Christians" (Koran 5:51)"

Then you wrote,

"As I said before this thread is about Islam, not the other two religions."

As you see, you're inviting the discusion about the issue when you argue with it, so you're the only one to blame if somebody picks it up, otherwise you're dictating the context of the discusion. Btw, hello my friend :smile:

Second, Zahid, puppets (SlapnutRob,Turbulence) are not alowed. Your practical error was the use of a similar footer, post counting and reg date. You have a good argument and i believe that, just as the bible was, the koran interpretation can be manipulated by man, just don't spoil it.

My thoughts, we need more humanity than religion.

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


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