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Anonymous

Islam, religion of peace?
    #1419491 - 03/31/03 09:47 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

This is not a thread about Christianity.  Nor is it a thread about the Jewish religion.  It is a thread about Islam.  I hear a lot of people tout how 'peaceful' Islam is.  And how we just don't understand it.  These scriptures, taken from its Holy Writ, The Koran are probably a better indicator of what the religion is about than the misguided ramblings of well-meaning people who have never picked up the Koran.  I own several copies.

From these scriptures, taken from the Koran, I think it is very clear that Islam is a violent religion bend on the destruction of those who don't follow it.


"Kill the disbelievers wherever we find them" (Koran 2:191)

"Ye are the best of peoples evolved for mankind." (Koran 3:110)

"The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and his messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be to be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet and genitals cut off, or to be expelled out of the land. Such will be their humiliation in the world, and in the next world they will face an awful horror." (Koran, 5:33-34)

"Not to make friendship with Jews and Christians" (Koran 5:51)

"Remember Allah inspired the angels: I am with you. Give firmness to the believers. I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: you smite them above their necks and smite all their fingertips off of them." (Koran, 8:12)

"In order that Allah may separate the pure from the impure, put all the impure ones [all non-Muslims] one on top of another in a heap and cast them into hell. They will have been the ones to have lost." (Koran, 8:37)

"If there are twenty amongst you, you will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, you will vanquish a thousand of them [infidels]" (Koran 8:65).

Allah and his messenger announce that it is acceptable to go back on our promises (treaties) and obligations with Pagans and make war on them whenever we find ourselves strong enough to do so (Koran 9:3)

"Fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem" (Koran 9:5)

Our God tells us to "fight the unbelievers" and "He will punish them by our hands, cover them with shame and help us (to victory) over them" (Koran 9:14).

"Until they pay the Jizya [a penalty tax for the non-Muslims living under Islamic rules] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued" (Koran 9:29)

"Unless we go forth, (for Jihad) He will punish us with a grievous penalty, and put others in our place" (9:39).

"O Prophet! Make war against the unbelievers [all non-Muslims] and the hypocrites and be merciless against them. Their home is hell, an evil refuge indeed." (Koran, 9:73)

"Murder them and treat them harshly" (Koran 9:123)

"When you meet the unbelievers in jihad [holy war], chop off their heads. And when you have brought them low, bind your prisoners rigorously. Then set them free or take ransom from them until the war is ended." (Koran, 47:40)

"When we decide to destroy a population, we send a definite order to them who have the good things in life and yet sin. So that Allah's word is proven true against them, then we destroy them utterly." (Koran, 17:16-17)

"How many were the populations we utterly destroyed because of their sins, setting up in their place other peoples." (Koran, 21:11)

"strike off the heads of the disbelievers" (Koran 47:4)

"Seize ye him, and bind ye him, And burn ye him in the Blazing Fire. Further, make him march in a chain, whereof the length is seventy cubits! This was he that would not believe in Allah Most High. And would not encourage the feeding of the indigent! So no friend hath he here this Day. Nor hath he any food except the corruption from the washing of wounds, Which none do eat but those in sin." (Koran 69:30-37)

Praise be to Allah  :smirk:
 


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Invisiblewhiterasta
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Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: ]
    #1419498 - 03/31/03 10:00 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Damn they sound a lot like most "christians" also.Why do the religions surounding peaceful prophets seem to turn destructive,even Bhuddists have had their squabbles.I stand by what I tell the jojobas witnesses"organized religion is the tool of evil" WR


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OfflineCherk
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Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: ]
    #1419623 - 03/31/03 12:28 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Thank you very much for pointing out those passages, now I have something to spring up on people. I think left alone man is rather peaceful but when an organized government/religion steps in all things go to hell. These institutions cause people to forgote the ultimate truth(we're all humans) and take sides. Take countries: What are countries? They're nothing more than a piece of cloth, yet government makes us take sides and wage war on each other.


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I have considered such matters.

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: ]
    #1419700 - 03/31/03 01:21 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

A violent religion indeed, as is Christianity and even Judaism.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: ]
    #1419727 - 03/31/03 01:32 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

The Koran, like the Bible, has been edited by the pens of MEN over the years, and thus, it's message has been altered. Read with your heart, and see through the things that have been put there to cause confusion, separation, fear, and other elements of the darkness.


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Anonymous

Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: Shroomism]
    #1419782 - 03/31/03 01:59 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

As I said before this thread is about Islam, not the other two religions.

One correction on Biblical text though. It has not had the revision that many think it has. While the autographs are not extant we do have papyri that date back to within 30 years of the autographs creation. The scribes who copied them weren't error free but they are nearly perfect in their tranlation.

I don't know enough about Islamic textual criticism to offer an informed opinion. But if the texts above are accurate they paint Islam in a very bad light.

Cheers,


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OfflineMurex
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Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: ]
    #1419914 - 03/31/03 03:26 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I wonder what that Zahid guy has to say about this.  :blush:


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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OfflineDogomush
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Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: Murex]
    #1420183 - 03/31/03 07:01 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

One correction on Biblical text though. It has not had the revision that many think it has. While the autographs are not extant we do have papyri that date back to within 30 years of the autographs creation. The scribes who copied them weren't error free but they are nearly perfect in their tranlation.

So the bible started fucked up? hehehe


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Offlinefriartuck
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Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: Dogomush]
    #1420307 - 03/31/03 08:24 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

The Muslims = the angry hand of God that will strike down on the unbelievers. Allah's got nuts. He isn't fucking around anymore, you all done pissed him off.


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: ]
    #1420404 - 03/31/03 09:24 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

This will probably be alot more interesting than debating with a fundamentalist Christian; who will often remain intentionally ignorant. Mr_Mushrooms, you desire elaboration on the listed surahs, and I will clarify each revelation to you, and what the proper context is. One must also understand that the Qur'an in english is not a translation of the Arabic Qur'an, it is only an interpretation. Also note, that for many verses in the Qur'aan; to understand it in its full context, previous or following verses must be included.

"Kill the disbelievers wherever we find them" (Koran 2:191)

Let's start with Surah 2:190. 'Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits, for God loveth not transgressors'. In this section of the Qur'an (and many others) you will find revelations that were revealed either during a time of war, or in the context of war. This verse (2:191) is directed to Muslims who are currently engaged in armed struggle. It is quite clear in the Qur'an that you have to be attacked first before you enter battle/wage an attack, et cet era.

"Ye are the best of peoples evolved for mankind." (Koran 3:110)

Hardly a violent verse, and yes; the Qur'an does say those who love God are the best of humanity - I don't argue with that.

"The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and his messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be to be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet and genitals cut off, or to be expelled out of the land. Such will be their humiliation in the world, and in the next world they will face an awful horror." (Koran, 5:33-34)

See my response to Surah 2:191.

Correction; 'The punishment of those who wage war against God and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: Execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: That is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter.' (5.33) 'Except for those who repent before they fall into your power: In that case, forgive them, because God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.'(5.34)

"Not to make friendship with Jews and Christians" (Koran 5:51)

The Qur'an does distance itself from the Judeo-Christian tradition for certain reasons. One must consider what Christianity is, and what the revelation of Islam is essentially. Much of this boils down to the fact Christians worship Jesus Christ as the Son of God, while Muslims worship God directly, and deny Jesus was divine (he has prophet status in Islam). A Muslim friend of mine once commented in a discussion about extremist Christians (he's moderate, by the way) "If I were a Christian, I'd be insulted by Islam too". What does the verse really mean though? Something like...Muslims, be aware of the Christians and Jews. They will not take kindly to you, as they believe you do not worship the same, one true God. But they are ignorant, so be compassionate to those who treat you well. (In fact, there is a verse in the Qur'an that commands us to be compassionate with Jews and Christians). It's a heads-up, because Islam totally contradicts Judaism and Christianity. Ever notice how people like Jerry Falwell practically wince at the utterance of anything Islamic?

"In order that Allah may separate the pure from the impure, put all the impure ones [all non-Muslims] one on top of another in a heap and cast them into hell. They will have been the ones to have lost." (Koran, 8:37)

Lets take out that 'all non-Muslims' in brackets, because it's not in the Qur'an. This is a well defined Hell-verse, common in any abrahamic faith. The pure are those who love God, and impure are those who rejected God, and above all of that, hell doesn't even exist.

Allah and his messenger announce that it is acceptable to go back on our promises (treaties) and obligations with Pagans and make war on them whenever we find ourselves strong enough to do so (Koran 9:3)

Correction; 'And an announcement from God and His Messenger, to the people (Assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage- That God and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the pagans. If, then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate God. And proclaim a grievous penalty for those who reject faith. (9.3)

Our God tells us to "fight the unbelievers" and "He will punish them by our hands, cover them with shame and help us (to victory) over them" (Koran 9:14).

See my response to verse 2:191.

Correction; 'Fight them, and God will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you to victory over them, heal the breasts of Believers, (9.14) and still the indignation of their hearts. For God will turn in mercy to whom He will; and God is All-knowing, All-wise.' (9.15)

"Until they pay the Jizya [a penalty tax for the non-Muslims living under Islamic rules] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued" (Koran 9:29)

The jizya is often misinterpreted - the payment of Jizya is for the non-Muslims living under the rule of a caliphate to recieve the protection of the Muslim army, and to exclude themselves from joining and serving in the Muslim army.

"Seize ye him, and bind ye him, And burn ye him in the Blazing Fire. Further, make him march in a chain, whereof the length is seventy cubits! This was he that would not believe in Allah Most High. And would not encourage the feeding of the indigent! So no friend hath he here this Day. Nor hath he any food except the corruption from the washing of wounds, Which none do eat but those in sin." (Koran 69:30-37)

This verse has absolutely nothing to do with earthly life. This verse is describing an unfaithful human in the next life.

I did not directly address all the Surahs you posted as many of them are very similiar in nature, and fall under the same context (of interpretation) as described in my reponse to the rather infamous Surah 2:191.


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Anonymous

Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: Zahid]
    #1420450 - 03/31/03 10:01 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Thanks Zahid.

Since I am unfamiliar with Islam in comparison to you I can only factor in your interpretation to the rest of the knowledge that I have. Islam, just like Christianity, has many factions and many interpretations of their Holy Writ.

Obviously there are Muslims who interpret it differently than you do or they wouldn't be flying planes into buildings in the United States.

Satisfy my curiosity one more time if you will. When did you convert? Under what circumstances did you convert? And are you of Middle Eastern extraction?

If you would have anyone else become Muslim here's your chance. There is no more powerful incentive to convert to a religion than the testimony of convert. I am very interested in your story.


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OfflineSlapnutRob
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Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: ]
    #1420591 - 03/31/03 11:46 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I myself have become somewhat more educated than your average American on Islam, mostly because I go to the University of Michigan-Dearborn. Dearborn, Michigan has I believe the highest Arab population in all of US. I have met and associated with many Arab Muslims and I have found them to be very friendly, well-informed, and peaceful people. This especially goes for the women, who are unfairly thought to be oppressed by many Americans (Ever notice some of them don't cover their hair? It's their choice). After reading some text on understanding Islam, and being an atheist at this point, I have found more reason to believe in Islam than in Christianity. I mean this in no way to bash Christianity or Christian believers, however. For those who are reading this who don't know, the Qu'ran is said to be the literal word of God, spoken to Mohammed from the Angel Gabriel. Mohammed was an illiterate uneducated man who supposedly spoke with literate men and had them write the Qu'ran, and supposedly he went over it and over it with the Angel Gabriel until it was just right. What I find the most interesting about The Qu'ran is that it reasonable describes and/or alludes to the real scientific explanation of fetal development, clouds, mountains, seas and rivers, and even the origin of the universe. Many prominent scientific figures have even expressed astonishment at how these things were written down thousands of years before the technology to learn them was created. Also, one thing that I found very interesting in some text was the reference to a verse of Deuteronomy in which God tells Moses what his final prophet will be like, and after doing research, one can find his description fits Mohammed unbelievably well. Elaborating would take forever, so do some research and/or ask Zahid and I'm sure much of this can be verified.


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Anything stated above is fictional roleplay dialog by the character that is Slapnut Rob, in no way representing the actions or beliefs of the man behind the keys.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: ]
    #1421542 - 04/01/03 02:22 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Obviously there are Muslims who interpret it differently than you do or they wouldn't be flying planes into buildings in the United States.



Or it could just be that they're pissed off at the U.S. for what we've done to them.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineTurbulence
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Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1421599 - 04/01/03 05:01 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

The Holy Qur'an is one message to every person on this earth. It has only one version, because it has only one author, Allah. It remains unchanged to this day. Unlike most other theological texts, the Holy Qur'an exists in one form unchanged throughout the world.

The opression muslims have to face all over the world everyday is something very hard for the average western mind to understand. Muslims are easily labelled as terrorists. Unfortunately , what is failed to realise is that the muslims are doing exactly what the westerners have led them to do. Palestine is a perfect example of the opression muslims have to deal with. Jewish well armed soldiers are wiping off palestinian neighbourhoods daily, but only when an israeli dies does the news crews report anything. Suicide bombers are called terrorists, but what are the israelis to the palestinians? or the americans to iraq? The bigger terrorists to the muslims are the western forces. It has been so for a very long time, only it is much clearer now. Sept 11th rocked our whole continent of North AMerica, but we fail to realise that thanks to american/allied support, israel has been succesful to accomplish several 9/11 scale incidents everyday upon poorly armed soldiers and their families in palestine. As the americans prepare to shell off 2/3 of their Tomahawk cruise missiles into baghdad, muslims are still looked upon as the terrorist. The excuse for the crusade againts the muslims is this, Terrorism and sept 11th. THe upcoming events in the near future will reshape the world we live in. One thing is for certain, unfortunate and unarmed muslims will die in great numbers all over the world, all for one large misunderstanding shaped by the western minds.


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Black Dog in a world of pigs, waiting for the wolves.....




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OfflineZahid
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Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: ]
    #1421631 - 04/01/03 05:21 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Never thought you would ask. :-)

I converted to Islam very shortly after the September 11th attacks on America; because prior to 9/11, I didn't know the first thing about Islam - in fact, I didn't even know the name of the religion's founder. To me, Islam was just another religion of the eastern world. I always compared Islam with religions like Hinduism, as opposed to Christianity.

At this exact time (I was 17) LSD became available in Neepawa, the small rural town I live in which was quite a surprise to all of us. At first, I was kind of toying with Islam. I was hyper interested in it, I was reading everything I could on it, but at first I distanced myself because of how conservative it was. Then again, Islam made perfect sense to me. I had long ago left Christianity and until then I was an atheist; that is, until I humbled myself before Allah. You could say the first thing that made me buy a book about Islam was curiousity, as I was very intrigued by the religion of the terrorists...very quickly, I learned Islam was not a faith of terror.

I didn't really believe in Islam until I had my very first insanity trip when I underestimated the potency of some acid that was in town - I took like six hits of this stuff when I would have been fine with three or four. I don't really remember much from this trip, it was well over a year ago. I only recall having having a religious experience for the first time. Almost every other trip down the road would confirm this experience. It's...an experience, a hyper awareness of ultimate reality. Markos calls it gnosis, I call it al-Ghayb.

Alot of people say finding God is over dramatic... it isn't, it's a time and place in the world that that person will never forget - it's when that person finds the roots of eternal love, and when all there's left to do on earth is to live, and wait.


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Offlineshaggy101
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Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: Zahid]
    #1421839 - 04/01/03 07:29 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Hello, excuse my ignorance as I have only read portions of the Koran, but could you tell me are there any books of prophecy? What do muslims believe about the end time?
Why do you think Mohammed(sp?) is the final prophet?
Am I wrong that Islam also considers Jesus a prophet?
Islam is the religion I have studied least..It would be cool if you could inform me alittle.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: Zahid]
    #1421899 - 04/01/03 08:12 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

it's when that person finds the roots of eternal love, and when all there's left to do on earth is to live, and wait. 




:smile:


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Just another spore in the wind.


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Anonymous

Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: Zahid]
    #1421917 - 04/01/03 08:24 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

You make me laugh Zahid.

It is Muslims Translating the Quran from Arabic to English. So the Interpretation is a translation.

You say to take out the non-muslim statements, but only MUSLIMs are following GODS LAWS, so you might as well leave them in correct.

Islam does not totally contradict Judaism, it modifies it. You can't completely disassociate the text your text is based on. No matter how hard your prophet tried.

























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Offlinefriartuck
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Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: Seuss]
    #1421928 - 04/01/03 08:32 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I agree. That is exactly what I'm looking for.

>it's when that person finds the roots of eternal love, and when all there's left to do on earth is to live, and wait.



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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: shaggy101]
    #1421938 - 04/01/03 08:41 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Just two things,
First. Mr_Mushrooms you wrote,
"This is not a thread about Christianity. Nor is it a thread about the Jewish religion...
...
"Not to make friendship with Jews and Christians" (Koran 5:51)"

Then you wrote,

"As I said before this thread is about Islam, not the other two religions."

As you see, you're inviting the discusion about the issue when you argue with it, so you're the only one to blame if somebody picks it up, otherwise you're dictating the context of the discusion. Btw, hello my friend :smile:

Second, Zahid, puppets (SlapnutRob,Turbulence) are not alowed. Your practical error was the use of a similar footer, post counting and reg date. You have a good argument and i believe that, just as the bible was, the koran interpretation can be manipulated by man, just don't spoil it.

My thoughts, we need more humanity than religion.

MAIA


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Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


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Anonymous

Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: ]
    #1421945 - 04/01/03 08:44 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Islam is Islam the world over. There is no interpretation. It is what it is.

The guys who flew into the trade center, are the same as the guy talking to you on the internet. Islam or else.

Everything Islam hates about non muslims, Islam practices. They are hypocrites if they state otherwise.


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OfflineOnly1AK
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Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: friartuck]
    #1421953 - 04/01/03 08:49 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Im a muslim too. Im only 16 years old and my family has been muslim for generations... Im happy there are other well informerd muslims on this site that can explain what those passages mean, because honestly ive always heard u have to interpret them but really didnt know exactly what they meant either.

Bottom line, Maaad props to Zahid for speding the time explaining the religion to others instead of argueing.


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Offlinefriartuck
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Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: friartuck]
    #1421959 - 04/01/03 08:52 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Teonan, things get lost in translations. Languages are very different, and trying to express the same thought in one language can be difficult in another language, even if the person doing the translating is fluent in both. Plus, the system of translating is human and therefore flawed. Bias, personal opinion, and interperetation WILL get in the way. As can be seen through two different translations.

I am curious Zahid, do you speak any Arabic?


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Offlinefriartuck
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Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: friartuck]
    #1421964 - 04/01/03 08:55 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

>This will probably be alot more interesting than debating with a fundamentalist Christian; who will often remain intentionally ignorant

Remaining intentionally ignorant, I understand that phrase very well.


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Anonymous

Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: MAIA]
    #1421966 - 04/01/03 08:56 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Like I said Hypocrites.

Using puppets. shakes head.


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OfflineDavid_Scape
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Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: ]
    #1421976 - 04/01/03 09:06 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Okay, teonan.... spit out why you're ego is so involved from the very first appearance on this thread. I wanna hear bad experiences, a sad story or any type of emotional bias for that matter...


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Offlinefriartuck
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Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: David_Scape]
    #1422026 - 04/02/03 01:42 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Looks like "intentional ignorance" to me.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: ]
    #1422193 - 04/02/03 03:40 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

The guys who flew into the trade center, are the same as the guy talking to you on the internet. Islam or else.



So are the Christians on this board the same as the people who bomb abortion clinics or klansmen who lynch black people? It just seems stupid to judge a religion based solely on the worst of its adherents.


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1422713 - 04/02/03 11:14 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

It just seems stupid to judge a religion based solely on the worst of its adherents.



Is it stupid to judge a religion on quotes from it's founder, from the words of it's 'sacred' text?


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: Evolving]
    #1422843 - 04/02/03 12:12 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

When they are taking out of context and partially misinterperated, yes.



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Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: Evolving]
    #1422925 - 04/02/03 12:55 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Quote:

It just seems stupid to judge a religion based solely on the worst of its adherents.



Is it stupid to judge a religion on quotes from it's founder, from the words of it's 'sacred' text?



No, but as far as I know, there's nothing in the Koran telling people to fly planes into the World Trade Center.


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Anonymous

Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: friartuck]
    #1423081 - 04/02/03 02:23 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

it's when that person finds the roots of eternal love, and when all there's left to do on earth is to live, and wait.

it seems thats what organized religion is very content doing. waiting to leave this hellish world so they can live in the afterlife. what about the world we live in now? why don't we make this world as great as we can imagine it? to me that would be the ultimate word of god.


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Offlinefriartuck
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Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: ]
    #1423107 - 04/02/03 02:34 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

>it seems thats what organized religion is very content doing. waiting to leave this hellish world so they can live in the afterlife. what about the world we live in now? why don't we make this world as great as we can imagine it? to me that would be the ultimate word of god.

First, we need to learn a lesson. There is too much evil in the heart of man. It must be wiped away clean.


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Anonymous

Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: friartuck]
    #1423163 - 04/02/03 02:53 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

There is too much evil in the heart of man.

the only evil is on the foundations in which we choose to live not in our hearts.


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Offlinefriartuck
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Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: ]
    #1423190 - 04/02/03 03:01 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

>the only evil is on the foundations in which we choose to live not in our hearts.

I stand corrected.


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Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: MAIA]
    #1423830 - 04/02/03 07:04 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Second, Zahid, puppets (SlapnutRob,Turbulence) are not alowed. Your practical error was the use of a similar footer, post counting and reg date. You have a good argument and i believe that, just as the bible was, the koran interpretation can be manipulated by man, just don't spoil it.

Puppets? lol... you're a moderator, go check the IPs next time before you emberass the both of us again. Your practical error was jumping the gun. *Tsk*

Only1AK:
As-salaamu Alaykum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu. :-)

Evolving:
I just explained the proper interpretation of the listed verses; if you still see it otherwise, that makes you a bigot.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: Zahid]
    #1423838 - 04/02/03 07:07 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

I just explained the proper interpretation of the listed verses; if you still see it otherwise, that makes you a bigot.



Ah--exclusion of the middle. I haven't seen that argument fallacy in quite a while.


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: Zahid]
    #1424194 - 04/02/03 09:28 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Evolving:
I just explained the proper interpretation of the listed verses; if you still see it otherwise, that makes you a bigot.



Your interpretations (or are they rationalizations?) still do not make it out to be a religion of peace. How does this make me a bigot?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: Evolving]
    #1424214 - 04/02/03 09:33 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)



Do you seriously believe that the actions carried out by terrorists are the true teachings of Islam?


--------------------


Edited by Zahid (04/02/03 09:33 PM)


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: Zahid]
    #1424358 - 04/02/03 10:32 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Do you seriously believe that the actions carried out by terrorists are the true teachings of Islam?



The question is, "Islam, religion of peace?" It is apparent even from your interpretations that it is not, it would be a rather big stretch to say that Islam teaches pacificism. But then, true believers in any faith are notoriously prone to the suspension of the faculty of reason.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Anonymous

Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: Zahid]
    #1424369 - 04/02/03 10:36 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

So far this has been an almost personal remark free thread. Let's keep it that way. I want to see clear honest inquiry and ZERO mudslinging. We all have a chance to learn something here if we want to.

Throwing the term "bigot" around is not exactly staying impersonal.

Let's all stay focused here.


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Anonymous

Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: Zahid]
    #1424409 - 04/02/03 10:56 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Never thought you would ask. :-)  ETC....




I am fascinated! :laugh:

These types of stories are extremely interesting to me.

I too have my own personal story of my induction into the "Jesus Movement" in the early 1970's and how I found my way out of it.  (reason and critical thinking :wink: )

Now as far as Islam is concerned all I know is what I have read and from the Muslims I have known.  I have never met a Middle Eastern Muslim that I didn't like.  They are the kindest, gentlest souls a person would ever want to meet.  My former brother-in-law was a Jordanian Palestinian Muslims (and a great cook). :smile:

But there are all sorts of problems with this issue.  First of all it was Muslims that have tried to attack our country over and over again.  The USS Cole, The World Trade Center (2x), the Pentagon, and the list goes on and on.  As peaceful as these people seem to me while they are in my country how do I really know they aren't just pulling some kind of scam?

So, I have all kinds of questions.

Questions like how do you know that the people at the top of the organization you belong to, if you belong to an organization, aren't linked to Al-Queda?

And what in the world would possess you to join a group of people or a religion that bombed your country?!?!?  :confused:

To me, that is just nuts.  That is why I think it is hard for someone to have any credibility for "joining up" when you did.

I mean, what did your neighbors think?  Your parent?  I think you said you live in a small town in Montana.  Now to me that sounds like gun-toting, tobacco chewing, "America love it or leave it" country.  Haven't you been persecuted for your belief???

One last question and I'll wait for the other answers.

You seem to rely on experience for what you believe.  There are many experiences that one can have especially if one is on drugs.

How do you know your interpretation of spiritual reality is the correct one?  Or is there a correct one?

Please try to keep personal insults out of this with the others and the others should do the same.  I am going to watch this thread closely and ANY insults will be immediately edited out.  I really would like to understand more about your religion.

Thanks! :smile:



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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: ]
    #1424480 - 04/02/03 11:23 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

But there are all sorts of problems with this issue. First of all it was Muslims that have tried to attack our country over and over again. The USS Cole, The World Trade Center (2x), the Pentagon, and the list goes on and on. As peaceful as these people seem to me while they are in my country how do I really know they aren't just pulling some kind of scam?

Those who committed these acts might have all been Muslims, but another, more obvious link to me is that they were Arab. Maybe they were hitting us in retaliation for our foreign policy in their countries and mosques just happen to be good places to recruit young men willing to die.

As for Islam being a religion of peace, I say no, it's not different from the other religions.


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Anonymous

Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1424517 - 04/02/03 11:34 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

The point to me is that their scriptures are FILLED with violent texts AND they have been extremely violent to the United States.

The obvious correlation is that the texts are meant to be taken literally and that the religion is more violent than any other today.

But, Zahid says no, and I am willing to listen to his side of the story.

Cheers,


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: ]
    #1424569 - 04/02/03 11:52 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

The obvious correlation is that the texts are meant to be taken literally and that the religion is more violent than any other today.

The key word is "today", there was a time when Christians saw it as their divine duty to reclaim the holy land, killing thousands of innocents in the process.
people have long memories...

Interestingly, at the time of the crusades, Christianity was about as old as Islam is today. Perhaps, Islam will mellow in the future, and then we'll all be happy infidels.


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Anonymous

Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1424675 - 04/03/03 12:25 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Hopefully IG hopefully.

Since we live in "today" it really makes the past quite irrelevant as far as other religions are concerned. And unless I misunderstood my history lessons this bloody religion has been just that for hundreds of years with no sign of abatement.


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: ]
    #1424919 - 04/03/03 01:35 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

But there are all sorts of problems with this issue. First of all it was Muslims that have tried to attack our country over and over again. The USS Cole, The World Trade Center (2x), the Pentagon, and the list goes on and on. As peaceful as these people seem to me while they are in my country how do I really know they aren't just pulling some kind of scam?

Yes, there are Muslims who are willing to kill themselves to kill you - but you have to understand that the motive cannot be as simple as an interpretation of Scripture. The Muslim world is in a huge sink hole right now and a small minority of Muslims believe that there is an actual state of war between all Muslims and the West and unfortunately, Islam is being abused by these fanatics. There are verses in the Qur'an pertaining to war, and that is because the Muslims were constantly under attack by the Meccans. In fact, for the longest time Muhammad commanded the Muslims not to fight back - eventually, after much pacifism, God commanded Muhammad to defend himself. You can say alot of Muslims in today's modern world use the U.S. as a scapegoat - But then again, look how much the West has already interrupted the Muslim world. Sadly, terrorists are misguided and the majority of Muslims tend to agree.

Questions like how do you know that the people at the top of the organization you belong to, if you belong to an organization, aren't linked to Al-Queda?

I don't know. Do you suggest I no longer donate to causes that help my brothers and sisters in Islam? What if that ounce you just bought somehow supported the Bali bombings? :-)

And what in the world would possess you to join a group of people or a religion that bombed your country?!?!? >>>>To me, that is just nuts. That is why I think it is hard for someone to have any credibility for "joining up" when you did.>>>>I mean, what did your neighbors think? Your parent? I think you said you live in a small town in Montana. Now to me that sounds like gun-toting, tobacco chewing, "America love it or leave it" country. Haven't you been persecuted for your belief???

I'm Canadian. :-) And yes, alot of people out here are ignorant and think I have sympathy for terrorists (a couple of my co-workers do).

You seem to rely on experience for what you believe. There are many experiences that one can have especially if one is on drugs.>>>>How do you know your interpretation of spiritual reality is the correct one? Or is there a correct one?

My mystical experiences are very real to me, and I am always left bewildered; whatever it is that unveils itself, is the source of all reality. I'm afraid I cannot elaborate much further than that - al-Ghayb cannot be described in terms other than 'knowing'.


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Anonymous

Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: Zahid]
    #1424928 - 04/03/03 01:38 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Thanks for the great answers! I really appreciate this.

It is late now so I'll save any further questions and comments for tomorrow.

Cheers,


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: Zahid]
    #1425463 - 04/03/03 07:11 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Puppets? lol... you're a moderator, go check the IPs next time before you emberass the both of us again. Your practical error was jumping the gun. *Tsk*




Oh really ?! I Don't need to go checking IPs, the human fault is enough.
Three people supporting each other. The two puppets have a similar writting skill, they build the message in the same way and the three of you make a similar footer with exactly 20 dashes "--------------------". Now, that is too much of a coincidence or ..... go ahead think it !!!!

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


Edited by MAIA (04/03/03 09:41 AM)


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: MAIA]
    #1425481 - 04/03/03 07:33 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

exactly 20 dashes "--------------------".

you have those same 20 dashes... so does Mr. Mushrooms and Evolving and Seuss and Murex and pretty much anyone with a sig  :smirk:

You're all puppets!

 


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: MAIA]
    #1425484 - 04/03/03 07:38 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

On the other hand I'll grant SlapnutRob and Turbulence are suspicious and are probably puppets. or not.



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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1425573 - 04/03/03 09:39 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

you have those same 20 dashes... so does Mr. Mushrooms and Evolving and Seuss and Murex and pretty much anyone with a sig

You're all puppets!




Oops! I know i fucked about that :grin: but i still think something is wrong about all this stuff, if not i apologize of course.

MAIA


--------------------
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Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
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Offlinefriartuck
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Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: MAIA]
    #1425878 - 04/03/03 12:51 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

This thread has political implications that are hard to ignore. The West is at war with Islam. It's hard to argue against that, considering we are bombing the hell out of our second Muslim country in two years. We also support Israel who has a nasty habit of murdering Muslims. We are threatening to invade democratic Iran and Syria.

These kinds of things have been going on for 25 years. It is not like the Cole, US embassies, and the two WTC bombings were acts of aggression. They have been retaliations.



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Anonymous

Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: friartuck]
    #1426077 - 04/03/03 01:59 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

While the political implications have been hard to ignore for you the rest of us have kept that part of it out of this discussion.  I will delete any post that is overtly political.

Thanks :smile:


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Offlinefriartuck
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Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: ]
    #1426140 - 04/03/03 02:19 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I think it's an important element to the discussion.

You are questioning the peaceful nature of Islam. I am conceding that there is a violent element to the religion, but am saying that even the terrorsts have a legitimate claim when they say that they are following the Qu'ran. For the Qu'ran says that Islams may strike back at aggressors.



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Offlinefriartuck
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Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: ]
    #1426163 - 04/03/03 02:31 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Remember also that the God of Islam is the same God of Christianity, who revealed to John that there would be a final battle between His forces and the forces of Evil.

Christianity also claims that Christ would come again. Mohummad claimed to have been Christ's equal.

The Jews were unable to see their Messiah. Perhaps the Christians were unable to see theirs as well.



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Offlinefriartuck
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Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: friartuck]
    #1426199 - 04/03/03 02:42 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

>You are questioning the peaceful nature of Islam. I am conceding that there is a violent element to the religion, but am saying that even the terrorsts have a legitimate claim when they say that they are following the Qu'ran. For the Qu'ran says that Islams may strike back at aggressors.

And because a religion is able to protect itself from Western corruption in this way does not mean that it is not inherantly peaceful, just anti-corruption/anhilation.


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Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: friartuck]
    #1426423 - 04/03/03 03:51 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

[qoute]The Jews were unable to see their Messiah. Perhaps the Christians were unable to see theirs as well.




Well thats interesting..I have never heard it put like that before.
I think that Jesus states clearly that all would know when he returns, and the old testament predicts his coming, while he predicts his own second coming and warns about all others coming in his, which would also be gods, name.
Although I am not a christian, I feel a deep love for Jesus and do study the bible.. I hope Zahid answers my questions because I wonder why I feel no conection to Islam?
I agree with Mr. Mushrooms for I have also met very kind Muslims and I find wisdom and love in the Koran, yet it has a strange violent feel to it much like the Old Testament of the Jewish/Christian faith.





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OfflineDrubuShrume
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Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: shaggy101]
    #1426506 - 04/03/03 04:25 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

What makes you think that the wars prophecised by Muhommad(sp8) aren't occuring between the west and the Muslims. It could be metaphoric, as the west will drain whoever it can of its resources and try to control everything. If the Koran has anything to say about a Chirstian war (Bush is obviously spiritual) or some type of Christian control movement, then maybe we are blinded by civilization.


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AH HA....


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Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: MAIA]
    #1426734 - 04/03/03 06:03 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

First of all, i aint to puppet, I am a muslim, Islam is my religion, my devotion and my faith. Allah is who i beleive in, and he doesnt tell me to terrorise the lives of others, he asks of me to bring peace to one another. If there is a misunderstanding of my religion to those who dont know much about it, im obviously going to share my knowledge and opinion. I respect every other religion with the same ammount of respect i give to my own, but i dont follow the others. I live everyday with ideals from different religions and spiritual practices, i truly love buddha's teachings and sayings, because of my nationality i am very familiar with Hinduism as well. Off course you will find a similarity between Islam, Christianity and Judaism. And Yes Jesus was one of our prophets, he is known to us as Prohet Isa(peace be upon him), son of Virgin Mariam, but we dont beleive him to be the son of God. Muhammad (peace be upon him) is known to be our last prophet because the last written words of Allah were bestowed onto him , that is the Holy Qur'an. After Muhammad (peace be upon him) there will be none other. We also beleive that Jesus returns to this earth on the final days and slays Lucifer.


In no way am i trying to endorse my religion, or try and use it as some sort of verbal defense. I am merely trying to clear up general misunderstandings. Thank you for reading and attempting to understand, the more we learn about each other, the less we kill each other.


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Black Dog in a world of pigs, waiting for the wolves.....




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Offlineshaggy101
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Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: Turbulence]
    #1426745 - 04/03/03 06:10 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

the more we learn about each other, the less we kill each other.






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OfflineZahid
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Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: MAIA]
    #1426952 - 04/03/03 08:16 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Oh really ?! I Don't need to go checking IPs, the human fault is enough.
Three people supporting each other. The two puppets have a similar writting skill, they build the message in the same way and the three of you make a similar footer with exactly 20 dashes "--------------------". Now, that is too much of a coincidence or ..... go ahead think it !!!!


No, you don't 'need' to go checking IPs because you know you'll be proven wrong. I'm not a retard, if I were to use puppets I wouldn't be as obvious as SlapnutRob and Turbulance (I would have simply voiced an opinion of Islam being peaceful, as opposed to posting as another Muslim) which leads me to believe someone is fucking with me. If they're not just messing around, wa alaykom salaam to them. Puppets? Give me some credit, alot of people here don't like me but I'm not some loser. Again, your practical error was jumping the gun; and clinging violently to the ego.


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Edited by Zahid (04/03/03 08:21 PM)


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: DrubuShrume]
    #1426978 - 04/03/03 08:27 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

What makes you think that the wars prophecised by Muhommad(sp8) aren't occuring between the west and the Muslims. It could be metaphoric, as the west will drain whoever it can of its resources and try to control everything. If the Koran has anything to say about a Chirstian war (Bush is obviously spiritual) or some type of Christian control movement, then maybe we are blinded by civilization.

An interesting and unrelated note, the Beloved Prophet Muhammad (saw) once made the prediction that abundant riches will be found under the Euphrates river and powerful nations will fight over it.


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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
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Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: Zahid]
    #1426997 - 04/03/03 08:33 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

The really sad thing here(imo) is that we even need religion or the promise of a better afterlife in order to treat our fellow beings with respect and kindness.......


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"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"



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OfflineZahid
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Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #1427013 - 04/03/03 08:37 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Are you saying order is lost without religion? :-)


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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
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Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: Zahid]
    #1427040 - 04/03/03 08:54 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

i don't know Zahid, i really don't. i'd LIKE to think that we as a species wouldn't turn into a pack of looting, raping, violent animals* if the hope or belief in any kind of afterlife were proven to be a man made concept in order to validate his/her existence beyond the grave.........i CAN honestly say that i wouldn't conduct my life any differently than i am now if such were the case(i think i posted a week ago or so asking the people here at the Shroomery how their behaviour would change if it could be proved beyond a doubt that all thoughts/ideas/beliefs about an afterlife were fallacious), and i'd LIKE to believe i'm not the exception to the rule........BUT......* wait a sec! The bulk of humanity DOES believe in some form of afterlife and divine retribution(under whatever name and guise) and yet as a collectivist unit we ARE behaving like a pack of animals...... :crazy: 


--------------------
"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"



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Offlinefriartuck
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Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: Turbulence]
    #1427089 - 04/03/03 09:38 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

>the more we learn about each other, the less we kill each other.


I find it interesting that Muslims believe that it is Jesus who will return to judge the living and the dead.


--------------------
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Never give up, never surrender.

If you're seeing bitterness, perhaps the time has come to clean the shit from your eyes.


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Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: ]
    #1428243 - 04/04/03 09:47 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

One can rationalize, claim "out of context", "mistranslation", "misinterpretation" or whatever till the cows come home, the truth of the matter is that the Qu'ran has some pretty harsh recommendations on how best to deal with infidels. Mr Mushrooms included a handful of quotations, there are many, many more he could have added.

As just one example, the penalty for apostasy is death. That's one you won't see Zahid try to refute, because it cannot be refuted. Ask any Imam, go to any Muslim discussion board, read the relevant passages in the Qu'ran -- all say the same thing. This is no misinterpretation or misquote -- it is Islamic policy, the penalty decreed by Allah through his prophet Muhammed, peace be upon him.

Islam is unquestionably a harsh and violent religion in its treatment of infidels and ex-members. I could comment on the other Abrahamic religions, but Mr Mushrooms' instructions were clear that this thread is about Islam, not about other religions, so I won't.

pinky


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OfflineTurbulence
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Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: friartuck]
    #1429607 - 04/04/03 07:43 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

You've been misinformed. Jesus returns and slays the devil, he does not judge people or souls. Allah all Mighty ( God ) judges souls and hearts of men.




--------------------
Black Dog in a world of pigs, waiting for the wolves.....




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OfflineZahid
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Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: Phred]
    #1429634 - 04/04/03 07:56 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

The death penalty is given to apostates who betray the Muslim army in any way; not apostates in general.


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OfflineSlapnutRob
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Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: ]
    #1429824 - 04/04/03 08:57 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Maia thinks I'm a puppet :mad:  Everything I said in that post was true, and I'm not even a Muslim, as I stated.  I'm kind of in that state Zahid used to be where I totally dismissed Christianity a while ago, and I am currently studying Islam, particularly when there's a huge Muslim population at my college and I think I should have an understanding. That's not to say I'm going to convert soon, especially over a trip. I was kind of spelling out my understanding of Islam and was wondering if Zahid could comment on it. . 


--------------------
Anything stated above is fictional roleplay dialog by the character that is Slapnut Rob, in no way representing the actions or beliefs of the man behind the keys.


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Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: Zahid]
    #1430248 - 04/05/03 12:09 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Zahid writes:

The death penalty is given to apostates who betray the Muslim army in any way; not apostates in general.

Ah. I see. So the learned discourses on the Muslim websites I visited immediately after the September 11 attacks (two of which included multiple quotes from both the Qu'ran and several respected Imams) in order to refresh my memory of Islamic principles were incorrect?

Or is it that all Muslims are metaphorically considered part of Islam's sacred army?

I would like to see some surahs showing that the average man in the street apostate is not to be killed. Thanks.

pinky


--------------------


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Anonymous

Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: Zahid]
    #1430863 - 04/05/03 07:54 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Ok, I finally have time to get back to this.  Thanks for your patience.

In fact, for the longest time Muhammad commanded the Muslims not to fight back - eventually, after much pacifism, God commanded Muhammad to defend himself.

Could you please cite a reference for this?

Me:Questions like how do you know that the people at the top of the organization you belong to, if you belong to an organization, aren't linked to Al-Queda?

Z:I don't know. Do you suggest I no longer donate to causes that help my brothers and sisters in Islam? What if that ounce you just bought somehow supported the Bali bombings? :-)

I don't buy drugs. :smile:  I don't know what to suggest.  There is a drive-thru liquor store not far from where I live owned by Muslims.  My wife and I have vaccillated back and forth on buying anything from them since 9/11.  We had established a prety good rapport with them prior to 9/11, sharing places to buy tahini and recipes and stuff.

We have always wondered if some of that money went to Al-Queda.  I think more importantly to me is whether you would continue to give money to the group if you knew it went to Al-Queda.  Would you?

Me: And what in the world would possess you to join a group of people or a religion that bombed your country?!?!? >>>>To me, that is just nuts. That is why I think it is hard for someone to have any credibility for "joining up" when you did.>>>>I mean, what did your neighbors think? Your parent? I think you said you live in a small town in Montana. Now to me that sounds like gun-toting, tobacco chewing, "America love it or leave it" country. Haven't you been persecuted for your belief???

Z:I'm Canadian. :-) And yes, alot of people out here are ignorant and think I have sympathy for terrorists (a couple of my co-workers do).

So after your neighbor country was attacked in the most vicious way possible in its history, then you decided to join a group somewhat alighed with the ones who attacked it? :confused:

That would be like me joining them after they bombed Montreal or Toronto.  I cannot understand that.

Me:You seem to rely on experience for what you believe. There are many experiences that one can have especially if one is on drugs.>>>>How do you know your interpretation of spiritual reality is the correct one? Or is there a correct one?

Z:My mystical experiences are very real to me, and I am always left bewildered; whatever it is that unveils itself, is the source of all reality. I'm afraid I cannot elaborate much further than that - al-Ghayb cannot be described in terms other than 'knowing'.

I share a similar history.  My 'conversion' to the Jesus movement was predicated on "experience".  But after I learned a few critical thinking skills I was able to extricate myself from delusion.

There are many "faiths", Zahid, that rely on some kind of "experience" for their authority.  Can you see that if that is what one is going on there is no way to differentiate the authority of one faith from another???

You and Markos both claim some kind of "gnosis" to be the foundation for what each of you claim to be Truth.  And yet one must be right and the other wrong.  The fundamental rule of logic is the Law of Non-contradiction.  It cannot be violated.

Does it concern you at all that you might be in error?  Or do you mindlessly follow a faith built upon experience without checking it out to see if it adheres to reason?  These issues are serious ones that require serious thought.

And lastly, I too, am interested in the surahs that declare apostates are not to be killed if they are not under the military section you referred to.  Could you post them?

Thanks for this most interesting conversation.

Cheers,
 


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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
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Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: ]
    #1430869 - 04/05/03 08:11 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

And yet one must be right and the other wrong."

Greetings Mr. Shrooms :smile: isn't it possible that they could BOTH be wrong?(not even suggesting that either one of them is but just raising the question) 


--------------------
"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"



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Anonymous

Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #1430897 - 04/05/03 09:05 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Shhh, you're not supposed to mention the possibility of a contrary instead of a contradictory. :laugh:

Yes, you are correct.  It is possible for both to be wrong.  But it isn't possible for both to be correct and that was my main point.

Cheers,


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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
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Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: ]
    #1430910 - 04/05/03 09:25 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

But it isn't possible for both to be correct and that was my main point."


Ahhhhh, okay, got cha! i thought that may have been your intent while i was reading your post but i spent a bit of time(my first) in the political forum yesterday and i guess i'm still feeling the FX :grin: btw man, is a "contrary" and an "excluded middle" even vaguely connected/synonomous? That's an honest question, i really don't know :smile:
 


--------------------
"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"



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Anonymous

Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #1430919 - 04/05/03 09:45 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I'll answer but I don't want to derail this thread.  We all could learn something from it.

A contrary is something that exists as an alternative but not necessarily contradicts something else.

Example:

All swans are white.
No swans are white.  This is contradictory.  If one of those statements is true, the other is has to be false.

But even though those statements exist as contradictories a third possibility exists, i.e. some swans are white.  That is a contrary.

Fallacy of the excluded middle is very similar.

If you argued that "all swans were white" as a result of someone saying "no swans were white" you would be guilty of ignoring the fact that some swans might be white.

In other words, if I said that "all terrorists that attack the United States from another country were Muslims" and thereby implied that all Muslims were terrorists, someone would be quick to point out that only some Muslims were terrorists.  My statement would contain the logical error of the excluded middle.

Hope that helps. :smile:


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Offlinearabmobster
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Re: Islam, religion of peace? *DELETED* [Re: MAIA]
    #1430923 - 04/05/03 09:52 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Post deleted by Mr_Mushrooms


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Anonymous

Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: arabmobster]
    #1430927 - 04/05/03 09:59 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Please read the "Be Nice" policy, A-rab.

Thanks.

I really don't like to edit.


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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
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Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: ]
    #1430929 - 04/05/03 10:00 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Hope that helps.  :smile:

It does Mr. Shrooms, thanks for taking the time to answer my question :wink: 


--------------------
"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"



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Offlinearabmobster
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Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #1430940 - 04/05/03 10:15 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

sorry about that


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: arabmobster]
    #1431317 - 04/05/03 02:39 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

The problem with you all is your attitude. By no means i was trying to insult or even to make a detour in this discussion. If you feel absolutely comfortable about you religious beliefs please continue just don't spank the blind guy ok ? Or is that your are told to do ?
If i thought you were puppets i had a reason, read the whole stuff again and give me one single reason to a come with such an attitude towards me, name calling ? Obscene ? WTF ?!?! Forgive me if I say what I think and explain it plain.
Besides, if your religious beliefs makes you all behave the same way, that's not my fault, you should reconsider your position as being religious robots, drones of your higher illusion. I even supported Zahid for gods "or whatever" sake.....

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


Edited by MAIA (04/05/03 02:41 PM)


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: ]
    #1433763 - 04/06/03 06:12 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Could you please cite a reference for this?

This is common knowledge among most Muslims. The Muslims endured the violence from the Meccans, and instead of fighting back, Muhammad had his early followers cross the Red Sea to seek refuge in the Christian Kingdom of Abyssinia. While Muhammad had to do this slowly and over a long period of time, it was the only way to be discreet. When the Meccans found out, they sent two ambassadors to the Abyssinian king to petition that the king should return the Muslims to Mecca as criminals. The king eventually allowed the Muslims to stay, ruling that Islam was more similiar to Christianity than Idol worship. The actual first armed struggle that took place was when the Meccan army made its first military strike against the Muslims. At this point, the Prophet had a revelation commanding the Muslims to defend themselves.

I don't buy drugs. I don't know what to suggest. There is a drive-thru liquor store not far from where I live owned by Muslims. My wife and I have vaccillated back and forth on buying anything from them since 9/11. We had established a prety good rapport with them prior to 9/11, sharing places to buy tahini and recipes and stuff.

We have always wondered if some of that money went to Al-Queda. I think more importantly to me is whether you would continue to give money to the group if you knew it went to Al-Queda. Would you?


Don't you think it's a little naive to generalize anything Islamic as a 'possible financer of terrorism'? Islam is nearly the size of Christianity. It's big, and the actual number of Muslims who are terrorists is very small - the problem is, is that they make alot of noise because of their style of self sacrifice which shocks the rest of the world. To me, those Muslims selling alcohol seemed very American and right at home in the land of the free. :-) They were harmless Muslim immigrants living the dream, not some al-Qaeda charity disguised as a Liquor store - but you, seem to be overly paranoid of Islam which is something I find hard to tolerate.

So after your neighbor country was attacked in the most vicious way possible in its history, then you decided to join a group somewhat alighed with the ones who attacked it?

That would be like me joining them after they bombed Montreal or Toronto. I cannot understand that.


24 Canadians died in the September 11th attacks. It was terrorists who carried out the hijackings, not the religion of Islam. The terror attacks intrigued me about the religion of Islam, and when I read further, I learned about its true roots and I found myself in humility before it.

I share a similar history. My 'conversion' to the Jesus movement was predicated on "experience". But after I learned a few critical thinking skills I was able to extricate myself from delusion.

You're free to do as you will. :-)

You and Markos both claim some kind of "gnosis" to be the foundation for what each of you claim to be Truth. And yet one must be right and the other wrong. The fundamental rule of logic is the Law of Non-contradiction. It cannot be violated.

Have you ever considered the possibility that we are both right?

Does it concern you at all that you might be in error? Or do you mindlessly follow a faith built upon experience without checking it out to see if it adheres to reason? These issues are serious ones that require serious thought.

It does not concern me because my intentions are not evil in any way. I have a relationship with God that is purely innocent and humble. God does not ordain a series of fundamental rules and semantics in order to have a relationship with Him. Whether you call your faith a relationship with Jesus Christ, or a relationship with Allah, it is all the same to the One God. Al-Ghayb/gnosis is an experience of the one and only God.

And lastly, I too, am interested in the surahs that declare apostates are not to be killed if they are not under the military section you referred to. Could you post them?

"Let there be no compulsion in religion; truth stands out clear from error.'' 2:256

Indeed, it's been an interesting dialogue. :-)


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Anonymous

Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: Zahid]
    #1433816 - 04/06/03 06:41 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Thanks for your time.

I have truly enjoyed this.

Cheers,


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