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Anonymous

Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: Zahid]
    #1424369 - 04/02/03 10:36 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

So far this has been an almost personal remark free thread. Let's keep it that way. I want to see clear honest inquiry and ZERO mudslinging. We all have a chance to learn something here if we want to.

Throwing the term "bigot" around is not exactly staying impersonal.

Let's all stay focused here.


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Anonymous

Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: Zahid]
    #1424409 - 04/02/03 10:56 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Never thought you would ask. :-)  ETC....




I am fascinated! :laugh:

These types of stories are extremely interesting to me.

I too have my own personal story of my induction into the "Jesus Movement" in the early 1970's and how I found my way out of it.  (reason and critical thinking :wink: )

Now as far as Islam is concerned all I know is what I have read and from the Muslims I have known.  I have never met a Middle Eastern Muslim that I didn't like.  They are the kindest, gentlest souls a person would ever want to meet.  My former brother-in-law was a Jordanian Palestinian Muslims (and a great cook). :smile:

But there are all sorts of problems with this issue.  First of all it was Muslims that have tried to attack our country over and over again.  The USS Cole, The World Trade Center (2x), the Pentagon, and the list goes on and on.  As peaceful as these people seem to me while they are in my country how do I really know they aren't just pulling some kind of scam?

So, I have all kinds of questions.

Questions like how do you know that the people at the top of the organization you belong to, if you belong to an organization, aren't linked to Al-Queda?

And what in the world would possess you to join a group of people or a religion that bombed your country?!?!?  :confused:

To me, that is just nuts.  That is why I think it is hard for someone to have any credibility for "joining up" when you did.

I mean, what did your neighbors think?  Your parent?  I think you said you live in a small town in Montana.  Now to me that sounds like gun-toting, tobacco chewing, "America love it or leave it" country.  Haven't you been persecuted for your belief???

One last question and I'll wait for the other answers.

You seem to rely on experience for what you believe.  There are many experiences that one can have especially if one is on drugs.

How do you know your interpretation of spiritual reality is the correct one?  Or is there a correct one?

Please try to keep personal insults out of this with the others and the others should do the same.  I am going to watch this thread closely and ANY insults will be immediately edited out.  I really would like to understand more about your religion.

Thanks! :smile:



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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: ]
    #1424480 - 04/02/03 11:23 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

But there are all sorts of problems with this issue. First of all it was Muslims that have tried to attack our country over and over again. The USS Cole, The World Trade Center (2x), the Pentagon, and the list goes on and on. As peaceful as these people seem to me while they are in my country how do I really know they aren't just pulling some kind of scam?

Those who committed these acts might have all been Muslims, but another, more obvious link to me is that they were Arab. Maybe they were hitting us in retaliation for our foreign policy in their countries and mosques just happen to be good places to recruit young men willing to die.

As for Islam being a religion of peace, I say no, it's not different from the other religions.


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Anonymous

Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1424517 - 04/02/03 11:34 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

The point to me is that their scriptures are FILLED with violent texts AND they have been extremely violent to the United States.

The obvious correlation is that the texts are meant to be taken literally and that the religion is more violent than any other today.

But, Zahid says no, and I am willing to listen to his side of the story.

Cheers,


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: ]
    #1424569 - 04/02/03 11:52 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

The obvious correlation is that the texts are meant to be taken literally and that the religion is more violent than any other today.

The key word is "today", there was a time when Christians saw it as their divine duty to reclaim the holy land, killing thousands of innocents in the process.
people have long memories...

Interestingly, at the time of the crusades, Christianity was about as old as Islam is today. Perhaps, Islam will mellow in the future, and then we'll all be happy infidels.


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Anonymous

Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1424675 - 04/03/03 12:25 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Hopefully IG hopefully.

Since we live in "today" it really makes the past quite irrelevant as far as other religions are concerned. And unless I misunderstood my history lessons this bloody religion has been just that for hundreds of years with no sign of abatement.


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OfflineZahid
Stranger
Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 4,779
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Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: ]
    #1424919 - 04/03/03 01:35 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

But there are all sorts of problems with this issue. First of all it was Muslims that have tried to attack our country over and over again. The USS Cole, The World Trade Center (2x), the Pentagon, and the list goes on and on. As peaceful as these people seem to me while they are in my country how do I really know they aren't just pulling some kind of scam?

Yes, there are Muslims who are willing to kill themselves to kill you - but you have to understand that the motive cannot be as simple as an interpretation of Scripture. The Muslim world is in a huge sink hole right now and a small minority of Muslims believe that there is an actual state of war between all Muslims and the West and unfortunately, Islam is being abused by these fanatics. There are verses in the Qur'an pertaining to war, and that is because the Muslims were constantly under attack by the Meccans. In fact, for the longest time Muhammad commanded the Muslims not to fight back - eventually, after much pacifism, God commanded Muhammad to defend himself. You can say alot of Muslims in today's modern world use the U.S. as a scapegoat - But then again, look how much the West has already interrupted the Muslim world. Sadly, terrorists are misguided and the majority of Muslims tend to agree.

Questions like how do you know that the people at the top of the organization you belong to, if you belong to an organization, aren't linked to Al-Queda?

I don't know. Do you suggest I no longer donate to causes that help my brothers and sisters in Islam? What if that ounce you just bought somehow supported the Bali bombings? :-)

And what in the world would possess you to join a group of people or a religion that bombed your country?!?!? >>>>To me, that is just nuts. That is why I think it is hard for someone to have any credibility for "joining up" when you did.>>>>I mean, what did your neighbors think? Your parent? I think you said you live in a small town in Montana. Now to me that sounds like gun-toting, tobacco chewing, "America love it or leave it" country. Haven't you been persecuted for your belief???

I'm Canadian. :-) And yes, alot of people out here are ignorant and think I have sympathy for terrorists (a couple of my co-workers do).

You seem to rely on experience for what you believe. There are many experiences that one can have especially if one is on drugs.>>>>How do you know your interpretation of spiritual reality is the correct one? Or is there a correct one?

My mystical experiences are very real to me, and I am always left bewildered; whatever it is that unveils itself, is the source of all reality. I'm afraid I cannot elaborate much further than that - al-Ghayb cannot be described in terms other than 'knowing'.


--------------------


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Anonymous

Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: Zahid]
    #1424928 - 04/03/03 01:38 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Thanks for the great answers! I really appreciate this.

It is late now so I'll save any further questions and comments for tomorrow.

Cheers,


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OfflineMAIA
World-BridgerKartikeya (DftS)
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 7,351
Loc: Erra - 20 Tauri - M45 Sta...
Last seen: 21 days, 4 hours
Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: Zahid]
    #1425463 - 04/03/03 07:11 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Puppets? lol... you're a moderator, go check the IPs next time before you emberass the both of us again. Your practical error was jumping the gun. *Tsk*




Oh really ?! I Don't need to go checking IPs, the human fault is enough.
Three people supporting each other. The two puppets have a similar writting skill, they build the message in the same way and the three of you make a similar footer with exactly 20 dashes "--------------------". Now, that is too much of a coincidence or ..... go ahead think it !!!!

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


Edited by MAIA (04/03/03 09:41 AM)


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: MAIA]
    #1425481 - 04/03/03 07:33 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

exactly 20 dashes "--------------------".

you have those same 20 dashes... so does Mr. Mushrooms and Evolving and Seuss and Murex and pretty much anyone with a sig  :smirk:

You're all puppets!

 


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: MAIA]
    #1425484 - 04/03/03 07:38 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

On the other hand I'll grant SlapnutRob and Turbulence are suspicious and are probably puppets. or not.



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OfflineMAIA
World-BridgerKartikeya (DftS)
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 7,351
Loc: Erra - 20 Tauri - M45 Sta...
Last seen: 21 days, 4 hours
Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1425573 - 04/03/03 09:39 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

you have those same 20 dashes... so does Mr. Mushrooms and Evolving and Seuss and Murex and pretty much anyone with a sig

You're all puppets!




Oops! I know i fucked about that :grin: but i still think something is wrong about all this stuff, if not i apologize of course.

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


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Offlinefriartuck
Man of God

Registered: 03/29/03
Posts: 2,007
Loc: England
Last seen: 18 years, 2 months
Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: MAIA]
    #1425878 - 04/03/03 12:51 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

This thread has political implications that are hard to ignore. The West is at war with Islam. It's hard to argue against that, considering we are bombing the hell out of our second Muslim country in two years. We also support Israel who has a nasty habit of murdering Muslims. We are threatening to invade democratic Iran and Syria.

These kinds of things have been going on for 25 years. It is not like the Cole, US embassies, and the two WTC bombings were acts of aggression. They have been retaliations.



--------------------
This post has been brought to you by:

www.thedarkunderbelly.com/phpbb

Never give up, never surrender.

If you're seeing bitterness, perhaps the time has come to clean the shit from your eyes.


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Anonymous

Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: friartuck]
    #1426077 - 04/03/03 01:59 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

While the political implications have been hard to ignore for you the rest of us have kept that part of it out of this discussion.  I will delete any post that is overtly political.

Thanks :smile:


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Offlinefriartuck
Man of God

Registered: 03/29/03
Posts: 2,007
Loc: England
Last seen: 18 years, 2 months
Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: ]
    #1426140 - 04/03/03 02:19 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I think it's an important element to the discussion.

You are questioning the peaceful nature of Islam. I am conceding that there is a violent element to the religion, but am saying that even the terrorsts have a legitimate claim when they say that they are following the Qu'ran. For the Qu'ran says that Islams may strike back at aggressors.



--------------------
This post has been brought to you by:

www.thedarkunderbelly.com/phpbb

Never give up, never surrender.

If you're seeing bitterness, perhaps the time has come to clean the shit from your eyes.


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Offlinefriartuck
Man of God

Registered: 03/29/03
Posts: 2,007
Loc: England
Last seen: 18 years, 2 months
Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: ]
    #1426163 - 04/03/03 02:31 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Remember also that the God of Islam is the same God of Christianity, who revealed to John that there would be a final battle between His forces and the forces of Evil.

Christianity also claims that Christ would come again. Mohummad claimed to have been Christ's equal.

The Jews were unable to see their Messiah. Perhaps the Christians were unable to see theirs as well.



--------------------
This post has been brought to you by:

www.thedarkunderbelly.com/phpbb

Never give up, never surrender.

If you're seeing bitterness, perhaps the time has come to clean the shit from your eyes.


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Offlinefriartuck
Man of God

Registered: 03/29/03
Posts: 2,007
Loc: England
Last seen: 18 years, 2 months
Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: friartuck]
    #1426199 - 04/03/03 02:42 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

>You are questioning the peaceful nature of Islam. I am conceding that there is a violent element to the religion, but am saying that even the terrorsts have a legitimate claim when they say that they are following the Qu'ran. For the Qu'ran says that Islams may strike back at aggressors.

And because a religion is able to protect itself from Western corruption in this way does not mean that it is not inherantly peaceful, just anti-corruption/anhilation.


--------------------
This post has been brought to you by:

www.thedarkunderbelly.com/phpbb

Never give up, never surrender.

If you're seeing bitterness, perhaps the time has come to clean the shit from your eyes.


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Offlineshaggy101
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Registered: 08/17/00
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Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: friartuck]
    #1426423 - 04/03/03 03:51 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

[qoute]The Jews were unable to see their Messiah. Perhaps the Christians were unable to see theirs as well.




Well thats interesting..I have never heard it put like that before.
I think that Jesus states clearly that all would know when he returns, and the old testament predicts his coming, while he predicts his own second coming and warns about all others coming in his, which would also be gods, name.
Although I am not a christian, I feel a deep love for Jesus and do study the bible.. I hope Zahid answers my questions because I wonder why I feel no conection to Islam?
I agree with Mr. Mushrooms for I have also met very kind Muslims and I find wisdom and love in the Koran, yet it has a strange violent feel to it much like the Old Testament of the Jewish/Christian faith.





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OfflineDrubuShrume
EAT ME - I'm afungi

Registered: 05/14/02
Posts: 449
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Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: shaggy101]
    #1426506 - 04/03/03 04:25 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

What makes you think that the wars prophecised by Muhommad(sp8) aren't occuring between the west and the Muslims. It could be metaphoric, as the west will drain whoever it can of its resources and try to control everything. If the Koran has anything to say about a Chirstian war (Bush is obviously spiritual) or some type of Christian control movement, then maybe we are blinded by civilization.


--------------------
AH HA....


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OfflineTurbulence
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Registered: 02/01/03
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Loc: Ottawa, Canada
Last seen: 18 years, 9 months
Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: MAIA]
    #1426734 - 04/03/03 06:03 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

First of all, i aint to puppet, I am a muslim, Islam is my religion, my devotion and my faith. Allah is who i beleive in, and he doesnt tell me to terrorise the lives of others, he asks of me to bring peace to one another. If there is a misunderstanding of my religion to those who dont know much about it, im obviously going to share my knowledge and opinion. I respect every other religion with the same ammount of respect i give to my own, but i dont follow the others. I live everyday with ideals from different religions and spiritual practices, i truly love buddha's teachings and sayings, because of my nationality i am very familiar with Hinduism as well. Off course you will find a similarity between Islam, Christianity and Judaism. And Yes Jesus was one of our prophets, he is known to us as Prohet Isa(peace be upon him), son of Virgin Mariam, but we dont beleive him to be the son of God. Muhammad (peace be upon him) is known to be our last prophet because the last written words of Allah were bestowed onto him , that is the Holy Qur'an. After Muhammad (peace be upon him) there will be none other. We also beleive that Jesus returns to this earth on the final days and slays Lucifer.


In no way am i trying to endorse my religion, or try and use it as some sort of verbal defense. I am merely trying to clear up general misunderstandings. Thank you for reading and attempting to understand, the more we learn about each other, the less we kill each other.


--------------------
Black Dog in a world of pigs, waiting for the wolves.....




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