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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1205191 - 01/09/03 06:55 PM (19 years, 20 days ago)

I am not talking about a small dip in the trendline. Overall rates have increased every generation.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineGoBlue!
Tool Rules - DBK

Registered: 10/27/02
Posts: 576
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Last seen: 18 years, 4 months
Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Swami]
    #1205211 - 01/09/03 07:02 PM (19 years, 20 days ago)

Swami, I think the data in the charts supports your point. As religious rates go down (from 1970ish to present), so does crime. Isn't that the point you were trying to make???


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


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Anonymous

Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Swami]
    #1205218 - 01/09/03 07:08 PM (19 years, 20 days ago)

So what do you attribute the fact that your figures coincede with an increase in skepticism?

Huh? First off, how does one measure an increase in skepticism? Even if so (which I hardly concede) coincidence is NOT causation. (My alarm clock went off at the exact same time as the sunrise. Wow! I must have a v-e-r-y powerful alarm clock!)

This is why I used the phrase, "non-causal correlations". Coincidence is pretty hard to prove isn't it? Your allegation of post hoc ergo prompter hoc or fallacy of the false cause must be accompanied by some sort of evidence. It is notable that you didn't provide any. It is a historical fact that most people that lived before the belief in evolutionism attended church and led moral lives (we are speaking of America I assume). What is your evidence to the contrary?


In other words is skepticism caused by the lack of evidence regarding better human behavior? Or is worse human behavior caused by skepticism.

I am highly skeptical, yet if I gave my word, you could bet your life on it. So in this sample size of one, your argument falls flat.

The fallacy of secundum quid also known as hasty generalization.

Tweetie (an Ostrich) is a bird that does not fly. Therefore all birds do not fly. Do not be too quick to use yourself as an example. Al Capone thought of himself as a philanthropist.

I LOVE how everyone ducks my point that believers exhibit the exact same foibles as skeptics which is highly indicative that they are NOT in contact with any higher power or inner wisdom whatsoever.

I have never ducked this question to my knowledge but that is beside the point. The answer to that is easy. The "believers" do not believe.

[the plot thickens]
[The excuses multiply]
[obtuseness abounds]
[avoidance continues]
[ignorance remains]





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InvisibleZero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland

Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
Loc: Passing Cloud
Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Swami]
    #1205231 - 01/09/03 07:18 PM (19 years, 20 days ago)

aohsdhoaishd... its not the gun that will hurt you its the man holding the gun you have to worry about. its not RELIGION, yes its in the majority that the people who conform. conformity brings simillar actions-simmilar actions would mean a majority of like actions. say you alter the conforming class to a certain action those in majority in the confomed will repeat those actions. most humans are idiots! its not religion which has killed people, its not religion which pushed me to the edge of psychosis, in fact it was the mis representation of logical thinking which brought me to it. you can blame religion all you want for the worlds problems, you can blame all the inanimate objects that sit around and do nothing or you can start looking at people and which gives objects their motion. Religion is like school is like the economy is like society. but it doesnt mean that everything that is in religion is bad, that doesnt mean spirituality is false, it doesnt mean that everything that revolves within economics is a detrement to human progress, not everything involved in the scope of society is immoral or twisted. you are making the others things equal assumption. i was once an athiest and from my understanding of who i was at the time and what it meant to be an athiest was that athiests dont think that there is some guy at the end of a rope pulling all of us and that is in fact true( you have the choice to end your life right now), but what i believe now and understand as god is something that which is everything and you cant deny. theres a clear distinction between repressed doctrinal nazism and clear cut understanding of truth and universal understanding. spirituality is just another term a lot of use to refer to that which we call our selves in this grand master dance. you can keep being a skeptic but eventually you might ask yourself if your skeptical of your skepticism, then you may start questioning your skepticism and start believing in things :wink: , cause you will know there is nothing left to doubt and then maybe youll see yourself as just another piece like the rest of us and just because 2+2=4 doesnt mean ideas will fit the same way. there infinite paradigms and the ways they fit together are endless, you cant possibly assume since two are simillilar all are the same.


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What?


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OfflineGoBlue!
Tool Rules - DBK

Registered: 10/27/02
Posts: 576
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Last seen: 18 years, 4 months
Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: ]
    #1205232 - 01/09/03 07:19 PM (19 years, 20 days ago)

I agree with you Mr Mushrooms. Although crime rates appear to be correlated to religious rates, this may just be coincidence (and then again it might not be). We can't know.
Also, I don't think people kept accurate enough records to know with confidence if overall human behavior has gotten better or worse in the past few thousand years. We only know of significant events.

But I do still think it's interesting that crime rates appear that they could be correlated to religious rates (more religion, more crime).


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


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Anonymous

Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1205276 - 01/09/03 07:52 PM (19 years, 20 days ago)

Thanks for the affirmation Blue.

No one responded to my earlier statement (shades of Swami opining people ignore his point(s)).

"Your premise contains a subtle yet deadly and incorrect presupposition. I'll leave it to the members to figure out what it was.

In other words, your postulate was framed wrong."

Now what is the subtle presupposition?  Ah, that would be telling wouldn't it? :wink:

Of course there is another way of looking at this that no one has mentioned yet.

If Swami is right, Karl Marx is wrong.

Personally I think people are not as quick to act immoral when the sword of Damocles, i.e. hell, is hanging over their head.  Science has posited reasons for us to believe man is a mere germ.  Not that that would alter a person's actions. :smirk:

Swami say: Religion isn't the crackpipe of the people!

Others dissent. 


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: ]
    #1205300 - 01/09/03 08:09 PM (19 years, 20 days ago)

OK, I concede. The introduction of spiritual techniques has worked quite well, not many people died in wars last century, world hunger and poverty are almost extinct and everyday the world gets closer to utopia thanks to meditation, worship and prayer.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Anonymous

Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Swami]
    #1205306 - 01/09/03 08:18 PM (19 years, 20 days ago)

I knew you would agree with me in the end. You are indeed very wise.

Ok, who's next?


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: ]
    #1205435 - 01/09/03 09:12 PM (19 years, 20 days ago)

This thread amuses the hell out of me...

I think I have a good William James quote that summarizes this thread quite well.
I'd post it, but it wouldn't matter... the ones who need to understand it, won't.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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OfflineGoBlue!
Tool Rules - DBK

Registered: 10/27/02
Posts: 576
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Last seen: 18 years, 4 months
Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: ]
    #1205500 - 01/09/03 09:43 PM (19 years, 20 days ago)

Now what is the subtle presupposition?

1) It was assumed that the world is not a more loving or compassionate place today than it was a few thousand years ago, which I don't think we can know for sure without better historical records.

2) It was assumed the message of God has been passed along correctly over 31 generations.

True, religion was supposed to make the world a better place, and true, the world doesn't appear to be that great.  But can we be certain this is all religion's fault given that not everyone in the world is religious???  I totally agree with Swami's conclusion, but I think a stronger argument can be made to prove the point, such as running a regression on the charts I posted to test the degree of correlation between crime and religion.  I don't think we can conclude that religion has done nothing to make the world a better place.  But it certainly hasn't made the world perfect, that's for certain.

If Swami is right, Karl Marx is wrong.

Hmmmm.  Since Swami's conclusion is that religion doesn't work.  That would indeed go against Karl Marx's teachings.  However, I don't see how that is relevant to the argument one way or another, unless you are trying to use the Argumentum ad verecundiam against Swami, which you know is a logical fallacy.  Shame on you Mr Mushrooms!  :wink:     


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


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InvisibleMountainMist
Stranger

Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 53
Loc: Seattle, Washington
Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Swami]
    #1205622 - 01/09/03 10:28 PM (19 years, 20 days ago)

Existence Is God Playing Hide And Seek With Himself :tongue: 


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Anonymous

Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1205782 - 01/10/03 02:03 AM (19 years, 20 days ago)

Oh Blue that is very clever of you.  I have this big silly grin right now. :laugh:

Later, I'll cut your heart out with a dull spoon and have it for lunch.

I am happy to see you do so well with the logic thingy.

The presupposition I am referring to is a subtle one and not the ones you stated, those are very obvious to me.  This one is subtle and deadly


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OfflineGoBlue!
Tool Rules - DBK

Registered: 10/27/02
Posts: 576
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Last seen: 18 years, 4 months
Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: ]
    #1205893 - 01/10/03 04:17 AM (19 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

The presupposition I am referring to is a subtle one and not the ones you stated, those are very obvious to me. This one is subtle and deadly.




I'm stumped.


--------------------
:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1205918 - 01/10/03 04:41 AM (19 years, 20 days ago)

I'm stumped.

Have you looked into a prosthesis?



--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Anonymous

Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Swami]
    #1206000 - 01/10/03 05:41 AM (19 years, 20 days ago)

I absolutely love it when I am reading all serious and everything and then one of the those one liners pops out of nowhere and I choke with laughter.

*sigh* That was very funny.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: ]
    #1206017 - 01/10/03 05:48 AM (19 years, 20 days ago)

*Performs Heimlich Manouever on poor Plato*


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Anonymous

Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Swami]
    #1207103 - 01/10/03 02:11 PM (19 years, 20 days ago)

Have you noticed most of us here don't believe in any of those religions? So what does this have to do with any of us? We are all basically on the same page about not believing these everyday religions.
Do you think the 'crazy schitzo alien believing spirtualistic freak liars', as swami probably thinks of us, is considered into those statistics?
And if you're going to dog meditation, who have the monks been warring with? What happened to meditation on a RISE in our culture and doctor offices?


Edited by dustin (01/10/03 02:14 PM)


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: ]
    #1207183 - 01/10/03 02:59 PM (19 years, 20 days ago)

Read my opening post. There is no moral societal improvement from ANY spiritual technique or from use of ANY entheogen.

Clear enuff?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineMurex
Reality Hacker

Registered: 07/28/02
Posts: 3,599
Loc: Traped in a shell.
Last seen: 14 years, 4 months
Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: MountainMist]
    #1207203 - 01/10/03 03:14 PM (19 years, 20 days ago)

Existence Is God Playing Hide And Seek With Himself

That's a good one.  :wink:

As for the topic- I don't believe that religion and the crime rate have any corralation whatsoever. It would also be impossabe to prove this theroy because there are so many immeasureable factors that can sway the results. 


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Murex]
    #1207242 - 01/10/03 03:34 PM (19 years, 19 days ago)

As for the topic- I don't believe that religion and the crime rate have any corralation whatsoever.

Exactly. Jesus taught peace and love. America is a predominantly Christian nation; therefore should reflect some more measureable degree of Christlikeness than other nations (it doesn't).

India is the nation most associated with meditation (or perhaps Tibet) so one would expect if meditation was the answer, India's condition would be superior, it isn't.

And so forth...


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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