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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked...
    #1200171 - 01/08/03 08:13 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Then the world would have actually changed and progressed in regards to human love and compassion, but it hasn't.

If Jesus or Buddha or Mohammed (substitute your favorite God-Messenger) each taught thousands and of that group, two people truly got "it", and those people taught many more and of those, two people got "it", it would only take about 31 generations (2^31) or 775 years (31*25) to enlighten the world.

You may also substitute mushrooms (or other plant/chemical of choice) and the same net effect is zero.

End of story.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Swami]
    #1200193 - 01/08/03 08:21 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

and those people taught many more and of those, two people got "it", it would only take about 31 generations (2^31) or 775 years (31*25) to enlighten the world.

You forget that most people are really dumb.

The enlightened - degenerate ratio will pretty much stay at the current 1:100 and that's by design and just the way things should be...


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InvisibleMountainMist
Stranger

Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 53
Loc: Seattle, Washington
Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Swami]
    #1200257 - 01/08/03 08:51 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Excellent point, Swami. I have often thought the same thing myself.

In order to be absolutely fair, though, we need to apply the same condemnation to every other system of thought designed to enlighten the human race, including philosophy itself. Has the Enlightenment really saved the world, or saved the human race from itself? Nope. Has Communism? Nope. Has ANY political philosophy enlightened the whole world? One cursory glance at the world today will suggest the answer is no. Neither has any non-political philosophical system.

The only ideology/belief-system that has shown itself to work consistently regardless of whether people "believe" in it or not is scientific materialism. But when I say "work" I only mean that in the utilitarian sense of usefulness as a tool, as a means of getting things done or predicting things. But in terms of enlightening the entire human race, saving humanity from human stupidity, it hasn't done that either--in fact, it has given human stupidity ever more powerful tools with which to do itself in.

So I think the conclusion to be drawn is that the human race up until now has been missing something. And if there ARE people who have truly gotten it, they have remained in a very distinct minority.

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Offlineundecided
newbie
Registered: 01/04/03
Posts: 31
Last seen: 21 years, 3 months
Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: MountainMist]
    #1200287 - 01/08/03 09:05 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

You can lead a horse to water, but you cant make him drink. Is that familar?

Anyways, the two people who actually "get it", will probably end up murdered by the majority who have some other interpretation of the religion.

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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: undecided]
    #1200302 - 01/08/03 09:12 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

So true, the failure of religion points to human shortcomings if anything.

Religion can make us better human beings but it can't make human beings better.

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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 3 months, 9 days
Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Swami]
    #1200453 - 01/08/03 10:15 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Going by this logic shouldnt the whole world have syphillis by now as well? :grin:  surely that would spread in the same manner, plus its much more contagious than enlightenment!! 


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Always Smi2le

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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: GazzBut]
    #1200487 - 01/08/03 10:23 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Going by this logic shouldnt the whole world have syphillis by now as well? surely that would spread in the same manner, plus its much more contagious than enlightenment!!

I don't think [fucking = talking] is very valid.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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OfflineAdamist
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Registered: 11/23/01
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Swami]
    #1200525 - 01/08/03 10:30 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Evolution works slow to human eyes.


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: GazzBut]
    #1200558 - 01/08/03 10:39 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Going by this logic shouldnt the whole world have syphillis by now as well?

*Self-administers penicilin shot* Um, what were you saying?


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The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibleSmack31
Stranger

Registered: 06/17/02
Posts: 10,681
Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Swami]
    #1200626 - 01/08/03 11:00 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

the problem is... and the 'lead a horse to water, can't make him drink' comment pretty much says it, you can only take a person so far. it's up to that person from that point... they have to look within. they have to get it on their own.

Edited by Smack31 (01/08/03 11:01 AM)

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InvisibleRevelation

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Registered: 08/04/01
Posts: 6,135
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Smack31]
    #1200642 - 01/08/03 11:04 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Exactly. This type of information can't be passed on from one being to another (as far as I know).


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Revelation]
    #1201010 - 01/08/03 12:38 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Let me trim that down a bit...

It can be learned, but not taught. Right?


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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OfflineAdamist
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Sclorch]
    #1201437 - 01/08/03 02:54 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Yes, because ultimately it comes from within you.


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:

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OfflineAdamist
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Swami]
    #1201494 - 01/08/03 03:10 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... Then the world would have actually changed and progressed in regards to human love and compassion, but it hasn't.



Maybe that's because of the taboo against the concept of love in human society. I will give a few examples:

"Look at those two guys hugging, they must be homosexual."

"Look at that old man showing physical affection to his grand-daughter... I bet he's a pedophile."

"That guy goes around talking about this 'love your fellow man' stuff... I bet he's in some kind of cult."

If Jesus was alive today, he would be put in a mental institution... the modern, civilized way to shut the people who are different up.

I hope you can get the general idea of these very typical judgements that have been made within society for thousands of years. Most of the time I don't even think these judgements occur at a very conscious level, because we are not very conscious beings. I think the main problem is that our human nature still equates the word "love" with the physical expression of love, most likely due to the widespread desentization of modern times... But it is most likely a combination of things...

The taboo against loving your fellow human is very great in a world where a compassionate person is looked upon with suspicion and disgust.


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Swami]
    #1201559 - 01/08/03 03:25 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

A Biblical metaphor for enlightnment is "a pearl of great price," a rare and beautiful thing to be sought after. A Buddhist metaphor is the rarity of enlightenment that is compared to a bird that drags a silk ribbon over a mountain once every 100 (1000, whatever) years, and a truly enlightened one does not appear until the mountain has been worn down. Ridiculous of course, but they like to stress the need for zillions of purifying rebirths before liberation. Vajrayana Buddhists concede the possibility in a single lifetime, as do Christians, but rarity of enlightenment is still the point. It is not taught, it is the result of God's grace or the annihilation of karma, respectively. In both cases, it is not a matter of human desire as it is of cosmic agency howsoever conceived as personal or lawful.

The individuals that you mention are not mere teachers in their respective traditions. They are exponents of Ultimate Reality, in human form.

Do not forget the negative side of reality: evil, entropy, 'devolution' from the spiritual to the material. Generally speaking, it is easier to lose energy than to gain energy, to fall asleep than to awaken. In one sense, to seek enlightenment is contrary to nature, in another sense it is supernatural in the meaning of transcending the natural inclination. And where else would the energy required in such a closed system come from, if not from a 'higher' dimension, so-to-speak? Perhaps like photons spontaneously appearing within every cubic foot of space-time, the 'blessed' receive 'grace,' 'uncreated energy,' 'serpent power,' etc. from the Matter-Mater-Matrix of all - namely God.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Anonymous

Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Adamist]
    #1201571 - 01/08/03 03:27 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Jesus was supposedly nailed to the cross..doesn't that show the human race can't handle complete 'enlightenment' yet? This goes with millions of different hateful situations on this earth.
And going by the basis of your theory Swami, you'd have to believe in an EGOgod for such power not to be true.
The TRUTH has been kept secret and hushed for a very long time. We are just now starting to accept things and letting go of our side that wants to achieve then destroy it all.

Edited by dustin (01/08/03 03:28 PM)

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Adamist]
    #1201595 - 01/08/03 03:31 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Sorry People,

I ain't buying your arguments. After ALL the teachers and ALL the scriptures and ALL the mind-manifesting drug trips and ALL the meditation and the 100 billion man-hours spent in church, synagogue, and temple; we are no further along now than any time in the past.

So are you guys telling me that all of this is so that 0.0000000001% of the population might get it? Not very convincing. Sounds like the proverbial blind leading the blind. Am I the only one who thinks it just might be a waste of time?

The number of spontaneous awakenings (if they exist) would probably happen anyway without any forced methodology.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Invisiblemr crisper
.

Registered: 07/24/00
Posts: 928
Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: GazzBut]
    #1201609 - 01/08/03 03:33 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

i think the syph comparison was excellent. i noticed swami crossed his legs, stings does it?
diseases have their life cycles, germinate - growth - decay, as do ideas, philosophies, political ideologies, empires, civilisations, plagues, religions.


i'm was sitting in a ripping earthquake as i wrote the above, it kinda broke my concentration.  :confused: 

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OfflineAdamist
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Swami]
    #1201612 - 01/08/03 03:34 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Sorry People, I ain't buying your arguments. 


Sorry Swami, I wasn't selling... must you always assume that I am?  :smirk:

Quote:

So are you guys telling me that all of this is so that 0.0000000001% of the population might get it?


No.   


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1201615 - 01/08/03 03:34 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

You forget that most people are really dumb.
You can say this and you have read how many of my posts?

The enlightened - degenerate ratio will pretty much stay at the current 1:100 and that's by design and just the way things should be...
Is this like the Coca-Cola carbonated water to syrup ratio?



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The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineMurex
Reality Hacker

Registered: 07/28/02
Posts: 3,599
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Swami]
    #1201660 - 01/08/03 03:45 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

If Jesus or Buddha or Mohammed (substitute your favorite God-Messenger) each taught thousands and of that group, two people truly got "it", and those people taught many more and of those, two people got "it", it would only take about 31 generations (2^31) or 775 years (31*25) to enlighten the world.

This is illogical thinking.

You forgot to factor in many things to this equation- one of the biggest would be war.

This parable by some guy I think has relevance to your way of thinking, Swami.-

"It is as if a man was posioned by an arrow and his friends called in a surgeon, but the man would say: I will not have this arrow pulled out until I know who the man is, whether he is a noble, a prince, a citizen, or a servant: or whether he is tall, short, or of medium height. Verily, such a man would die, here the surgeon could addequately learn all this after he has helped the man."


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What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


Edited by Murex (01/08/03 03:54 PM)

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Invisiblemr crisper
.

Registered: 07/24/00
Posts: 928
Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Swami]
    #1201678 - 01/08/03 03:50 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

we are no further along now than any time in the past.




thats because we are not going anywhere, we are perfect now.
religions and beliefs are basically mental theme parks.

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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: mr crisper]
    #1201792 - 01/08/03 04:22 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

mr crisper writes:

thats because we are not going anywhere, we are perfect now.

That's the best answer in the entire thread. As a matter of fact, it's downright brilliant. Maybe rather than use the word "perfect", it would be more accurate to substitute "as good as we are going to get", but the basic principle mr crisper expressed is the one that best fits the available evidence, and contradicts nothing we can observe.

In actual fact, when it comes to religion and philosophy, there really is "nothing new under the sun". All the basic options have been around long enough that in the parts of the world where free flow of ideas is the norm, people have made their choices. Chances are that when the rest of the world's populace is eventually exposed to these "new" ideas, roughly the same proportion of them will opt for "Plan A", "Plan B", "Plan D3", as the rest of us already have.

Kudos to mr crisper for cutting through the crap!

pinky


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Offlineundecided
newbie
Registered: 01/04/03
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: mr crisper]
    #1201810 - 01/08/03 04:32 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Simply, Jesus and Buddha were way-showers. They shown humanity the door. But it is OUR choice to walk through or not.

So if we choose not to walk through, then all of the Jesus's and Buddhas in the world cant change that.

Also, like I said, the "two" people who get it would probably end up murdered if they are too social in expressing and demonstrating the "secret truths". An example is the Cathars. The Inquisition went into full swing because they got big enough for the Roman Church to notice them.

Now if the Cathars consisted of "two" practitioners who basically meditated and understood "the secret truths" and maybe expressed them only to their students, then maybe the Inquisition wouldnt have happened.

So therefore, the world is probably a better place because "the secret truths" are kept safely in monastaries.

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InvisibleShroomismM
Space Travellin
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Swami]
    #1201901 - 01/08/03 05:12 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked...

Then we would have no need for arguing semantics


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OfflineFatNug
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: mr crisper]
    #1201932 - 01/08/03 05:25 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

we are perfect now. 




You're kidding right?    :crazy: 


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================================================So what's your peace of mind huh? A swiss watch? leasin' a Lex on credit? all the pussy and liquor a nigga can get..put together this puzzle, but my pieces won't fit.. {Ras kass}

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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Swami]
    #1201944 - 01/08/03 05:29 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Christianity and Islam teach how to be saved from Hell. Buddhism teaches how to find inner peace. It's about changing yourself, not necessarily changing the world.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: silversoul7]
    #1201954 - 01/08/03 05:31 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Yep.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Swami]
    #1202372 - 01/08/03 09:47 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked...

What do you mean by "worked"? I don't think religion can guarantee success. I think if religion can manage to show you the way, then it has "worked".... the rest is up to you.

The reason the whole world isn't enlightened isn't because religion didn't work. It worked just fine. The bible says that Christians are to be the "salt of the Earth". Doesn't this imply that the "enlightened" will always be in the minority? Religion never promised enlightenment to the masses. The masses cling to religion because they don't believe in themselves and they desperately need something to believe in.



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Anonymous

Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Swami]
    #1202586 - 01/09/03 12:21 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Your premise contains a subtle yet deadly and incorrect presupposition. I'll leave it to the members to figure out what it was.

In other words, your postulate was framed wrong.

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Anonymous

Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Adamist]
    #1202601 - 01/09/03 12:25 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

The taboo against loving your fellow human is very great in a world where a compassionate person is looked upon with suspicion and disgust.




Very impressive Adamist. Your statement was entered in the Quotable Quotes from Shroomerites thread found here.

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OfflineAdamist
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: undecided]
    #1203475 - 01/09/03 06:50 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Evolving's signature applies here, I think:
"You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think."


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Adamist]
    #1203676 - 01/09/03 08:06 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

The World

before prayer, scripture and Master's teachings: war, murder, selfishness

after prayer, scripture and Master's teachings: war, murder, selfishness

BIG difference!


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The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineNSKiller
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: ]
    #1203722 - 01/09/03 08:25 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Poster: Mr_Mushrooms
Subject: Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... 


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The taboo against loving your fellow human is very great in a world where a compassionate person is looked upon with suspicion and disgust.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Very impressive Adamist. Your statement was entered in the Quotable Quotes from Shroomerites thread found here. 





I was going to write something on his statement before I read this post, now I'll just say I totally agree.... I was gonna quote that, because how so very true it is.....  :frown:  and on the note of religion, I myself don't consider myself a very religious person, yet i sit around all the time and think about "religion" 


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"I think its time to hit the sack, then i'll probably just go to bed" ~ NSKiller

Edited by NSKiller (01/09/03 09:47 AM)

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InvisiblethePatient
Criminal Bodhisattva
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Swami]
    #1203961 - 01/09/03 10:28 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

I ain't buying your arguments. After ALL the teachers and ALL the scriptures and ALL the mind-manifesting drug trips and ALL the meditation and the 100 billion man-hours spent in church, synagogue, and temple; we are no further along now than any time in the past.




No further along? It might be my foolishness, or my naievity, or my compassion for my fellow man...but for you to say that we are no further along than at any time in the past is just nonsense. The step we've taken might be a small one, but its one step closer than before.

Quote:

Am I the only one who thinks it just might be a waste of time? 



Is time that is spent for a good cause really wasted? I suppose the answer to your question is the answer to most question: It's all on your perspective, baby :wink: 


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T h e r e  a r e  n o  o r d i n a r y  m o m e n t s.

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Invisiblemr crisper
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Posts: 928
Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: FatNug]
    #1204122 - 01/09/03 11:32 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Quote:

we are perfect now. 




You're kidding right?    :crazy: 




no.
everything is exactly as it should be, everything happens when the time is right.
 

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OfflineAdamist
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: thePatient]
    #1204137 - 01/09/03 11:38 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Compassion for your fellow man? WTF? Are you in some kind of cult or something?  :shocked: 


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Anonymous

Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Adamist]
    #1204233 - 01/09/03 12:29 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Swami also forgot to factor in himself..lmao.
Goes along with every other skeptic who builds their life around disbelief.

Edited by dustin (01/09/03 12:30 PM)

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: thePatient]
    #1204306 - 01/09/03 01:05 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

...but for you to say that we are no further along than at any time in the past is just nonsense.
Thank you for declaring my viewpoint as nonsense.

The step we've taken might be a small one, but its one step closer than before.
3000 years ago: nonstop war in the Middle East.

Today: nonstop war in the Middle East.

Please point out my nonsense and what small step that we have taken and what we are closer to. Clarify man!



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InvisibleSwami
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: thePatient]
    #1204309 - 01/09/03 01:07 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Is time that is spent for a good cause really wasted?

Your question is a trick one. The raw answer is "No." Yet, there is no evidence that praying and worship is a good cause.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: ]
    #1204326 - 01/09/03 01:12 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Goes along with every other skeptic who builds their life around disbelief.

Do you believe or disbelieve that the murder rate in the US is at or near a historical high?

Do you believe or disbelieve that percentage of people in prison in the US is at or near a historical high?

Do you believe or disbelieve that alcohol abuse in the US is at or near a historical high?

Do you believe or disbelieve that child abuse in the US is at or near a historical high?

Do you believe or disbelieve that divorce in the US is at or near a historical high?

Do you believe or disbelieve that the abortion rate in the US is at or near a historical high?

Do you believe or disbelieve that teenage pregnancy in the US is at or near a historical high?

I guess my skepticism caused all of that and that all of the religious / spiritual techniques are working quite well.


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Swami]
    #1204670 - 01/09/03 02:43 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

there is no evidence that praying and worship is a good cause.



I don't think he was referring to prayer and worship, Swami. The first line of your post says itself that the goal is "human love and compassion", not prayer and worship. Prayer and worship are just a tool, and I'm sure you'll agree that not everyone uses a tool with the same degree of efficiency. :smirk: 


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Anonymous

Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Swami]
    #1204810 - 01/09/03 03:16 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Do you believe or disbelieve that there is a non-causal correlation between those facts and the fact that fewer people in the US acknowledge the existence and supremacy of God, i.e. skepticism is at a near historical high?

[the plot thickens]

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OfflineAdamist
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: ]
    #1204822 - 01/09/03 03:19 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

You bring up an interesting point.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Adamist]
    #1204844 - 01/09/03 03:22 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

and I'm sure you'll agree that not everyone uses a tool with the same degree of efficiency

In the early '70s there were a couple of books on the benefits of running and aerobics from Fixx and Cooper and others. The jogging boom was born and now there are hundreds of thousands participating in these and similar activities because they promote health and ACTUALLY work.

Now does everyone get the same benefit from these tools? Of course not! However, there is zero evidence that any spiritual "tools" actually work, which is why there is no change in morality; in fact most indicators are going in the negative direction.

No one has to make ANY excuse for physical exercise, but most every response here was an apology for why spiritual exercise is not efficacious.




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OfflineAdamist
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Swami]
    #1204854 - 01/09/03 03:25 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

You expect too much from a mere tool.


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Edited by Adamist (01/09/03 03:26 PM)

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: ]
    #1204859 - 01/09/03 03:26 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Do you believe or disbelieve that there is a non-causal correlation between those facts and the fact that fewer people in the US acknowledge the existence and supremacy of God, i.e. skepticism is at a near historical high?
Sorry bro, there is no causal relationship. I have only hammered this point a hundred times here. If that were true, the believers would exhibit behavior reflective of a higher moral code than skeptics. Alas there is NO DIFFERENCE.

[the plot thickens]
[The excuses multiply]



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The proof is in the pudding.

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Anonymous

Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Swami]
    #1204898 - 01/09/03 03:39 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

So what do you attribute the fact that your figures coincede with an increase in skepticism?

More skepticism, less humanity. Or so it seems.

In other words is skepticism caused by the lack of evidence regarding better human behavior? Or is worse human behavior caused by skepticism.

[the plot thickens]
[The excuses multiply]
[obtuseness abounds]

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InvisiblethePatient
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Swami]
    #1204960 - 01/09/03 03:59 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

3000 years ago: nonstop war in the Middle East.

Today: nonstop war in the Middle East.
 




I think war is a necessary evil that must take place on the path to an enlightened existence of Man. Its a transition from our primal ape instincts to a more evolved utopian system where we love our fellow man.

Or maybe im wrong.

Quote:

Please point out my nonsense and what small step that we have taken and what we are closer to. Clarify man!




Small steps...small steps... Well...  Id say we've taken small steps in regards to race and the freedom of each human being. Slavery is pretty much abolished and though racism still thrives and survives...it will be rooted out one day.

Small steps... i could point out that Women and Men have become equal, in a sense. Yes, im sure there are still sexist people in the work force, and all around this planetary sphere. But the idea is that the majority treats every man and every woman with equal hatred and equal love. :wink:  Im sure Equality is one of the beginning steps to world peace.

It'll all die out one day. Die with us.   


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Anonymous

Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: thePatient]
    #1205072 - 01/09/03 04:22 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

I'm sure way back in the now (lol), near our intelligence's beginning all humans got along at some point then something went wrong. Some of us probably started doubting others or things the other brought up and this caused a confliction. Then comes the liar to take place of the other side to the confliction.
Swami thinks most believers who experience things are lying for attention.
This causes confliction.
Whos really causing the problems of this race?

Edited by dustin (01/09/03 04:25 PM)

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OfflineAdamist
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: ]
    #1205082 - 01/09/03 04:23 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Whos really causing the problems of this race?



The one who invented the concept of lieing.  :wink: 


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: thePatient]
    #1205093 - 01/09/03 04:27 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Small steps... i could point out that Women and Men have become equal, in a sense.

The social reforms you mentioned cannot be linked to any spiritual practices.

I noticed that everyone steered clear of my post where I clearly listed the negatives. Now why is that?


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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Swami]
    #1205096 - 01/09/03 04:27 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

I don't know how well these will show up, but I cut and paste them from the web.  First, a chart showing that atheism in America has grown from about 5% in 1972 to about 13% today:


Next is a chart showing violent crime has shrunk from about 3.5 million offenses in 1973 to 2.0 million today:


So as the country has becomes less religious, crime goes down.  Also note that Europe is much less religious than the US, and the violent crime rate there is even lower.

I guess athiests don't believe in penance, so they would feel guilty for life after a crime, rather than just a week like Christians.  :tongue: 


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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OfflineAdamist
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1205104 - 01/09/03 04:30 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

On your first chart, "None" could mean a number of things, not just atheism. One could choose "None" to show that they have an inner spirituality, that they don't rely on religious organizations.

Also, what's the source of this information?


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: ]
    #1205118 - 01/09/03 04:34 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

So what do you attribute the fact that your figures coincede with an increase in skepticism?
Huh? First off, how does one measure an increase in skepticism? Even if so (which I hardly concede) coincidence is NOT causation. (My alarm clock went off at the exact same time as the sunrise. Wow! I must have a v-e-r-y powerful alarm clock!)

In other words is skepticism caused by the lack of evidence regarding better human behavior? Or is worse human behavior caused by skepticism.
I am highly skeptical, yet if I gave my word, you could bet your life on it. So in this sample size of one, your argument falls flat.

I LOVE how everyone ducks my point that believers exhibit the exact same foibles as skeptics which is highly indicative that they are NOT in contact with any higher power or inner wisdom whatsoever.

[the plot thickens]
[The excuses multiply]
[obtuseness abounds]
[avoidance continues]


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineMurex
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Swami]
    #1205119 - 01/09/03 04:34 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Do you believe or disbelieve that the murder rate in the US is at or near a historical high?

Do you believe blah blah blah........


Did you factor in populatin growth?


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Adamist]
    #1205141 - 01/09/03 04:39 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

On your first chart, "None" could mean a number of things, not just atheism. One could choose "None" to show that they have an inner spirituality, that they don't rely on religious organizations. Also, what's the source of this information?

Here is what the website said about the source of the data, and what "None" means:

"The following chart is an amalgam of various respectable polling data (including ARIS, Gallup, NORC and ABC/Beliefnet). The key to note is the trend in the category "None." This category represents all those without religion. They are not a member of any religion. This includes agnostics, as well as atheists, but essentially represents those who do not believe in a deity that has anything to do with their life. The count of non-religionists currently add up to at least 14.1% of the US Population. Some argue it's higher than that. I prefer to be conservative in statistical analysis. The numbers do not take into account the many non-theists who do not readily admit their lack of religion. It is our opinion that the "None" count should be realistically higher than currently shown. Whatever the case the trend is in the non-theist, as well as "Other" religion, direction. The chart represents US-based data only."

The crime chart comes directly from the US Department of Justice homepage.

So it appears that "other" religion (which is also on the rise), is for what you are talking about. This could also be a factor as to why violent crime is going down.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Murex]
    #1205156 - 01/09/03 04:45 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Did you factor in populatin growth?

Rate is defined as a percentage, not a total number.


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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Swami]
    #1205175 - 01/09/03 04:50 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Homicide Rates (also from the US department of justice homepage):



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InvisiblethePatient
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Swami]
    #1205186 - 01/09/03 04:53 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

believers exhibit the exact same foibles as skeptics




The price of being Human. Our foibles, or our failings of character, are due to our being human and imperfection, and not our religious beliefs.

A person in "contact with any higher power" is a still a person, none-the-less.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1205191 - 01/09/03 04:55 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

I am not talking about a small dip in the trendline. Overall rates have increased every generation.


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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Swami]
    #1205211 - 01/09/03 05:02 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Swami, I think the data in the charts supports your point. As religious rates go down (from 1970ish to present), so does crime. Isn't that the point you were trying to make???


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Anonymous

Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Swami]
    #1205218 - 01/09/03 05:08 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

So what do you attribute the fact that your figures coincede with an increase in skepticism?

Huh? First off, how does one measure an increase in skepticism? Even if so (which I hardly concede) coincidence is NOT causation. (My alarm clock went off at the exact same time as the sunrise. Wow! I must have a v-e-r-y powerful alarm clock!)

This is why I used the phrase, "non-causal correlations". Coincidence is pretty hard to prove isn't it? Your allegation of post hoc ergo prompter hoc or fallacy of the false cause must be accompanied by some sort of evidence. It is notable that you didn't provide any. It is a historical fact that most people that lived before the belief in evolutionism attended church and led moral lives (we are speaking of America I assume). What is your evidence to the contrary?


In other words is skepticism caused by the lack of evidence regarding better human behavior? Or is worse human behavior caused by skepticism.

I am highly skeptical, yet if I gave my word, you could bet your life on it. So in this sample size of one, your argument falls flat.

The fallacy of secundum quid also known as hasty generalization.

Tweetie (an Ostrich) is a bird that does not fly. Therefore all birds do not fly. Do not be too quick to use yourself as an example. Al Capone thought of himself as a philanthropist.

I LOVE how everyone ducks my point that believers exhibit the exact same foibles as skeptics which is highly indicative that they are NOT in contact with any higher power or inner wisdom whatsoever.

I have never ducked this question to my knowledge but that is beside the point. The answer to that is easy. The "believers" do not believe.

[the plot thickens]
[The excuses multiply]
[obtuseness abounds]
[avoidance continues]
[ignorance remains]




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InvisibleZero7a1
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Swami]
    #1205231 - 01/09/03 05:18 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

aohsdhoaishd... its not the gun that will hurt you its the man holding the gun you have to worry about. its not RELIGION, yes its in the majority that the people who conform. conformity brings simillar actions-simmilar actions would mean a majority of like actions. say you alter the conforming class to a certain action those in majority in the confomed will repeat those actions. most humans are idiots! its not religion which has killed people, its not religion which pushed me to the edge of psychosis, in fact it was the mis representation of logical thinking which brought me to it. you can blame religion all you want for the worlds problems, you can blame all the inanimate objects that sit around and do nothing or you can start looking at people and which gives objects their motion. Religion is like school is like the economy is like society. but it doesnt mean that everything that is in religion is bad, that doesnt mean spirituality is false, it doesnt mean that everything that revolves within economics is a detrement to human progress, not everything involved in the scope of society is immoral or twisted. you are making the others things equal assumption. i was once an athiest and from my understanding of who i was at the time and what it meant to be an athiest was that athiests dont think that there is some guy at the end of a rope pulling all of us and that is in fact true( you have the choice to end your life right now), but what i believe now and understand as god is something that which is everything and you cant deny. theres a clear distinction between repressed doctrinal nazism and clear cut understanding of truth and universal understanding. spirituality is just another term a lot of use to refer to that which we call our selves in this grand master dance. you can keep being a skeptic but eventually you might ask yourself if your skeptical of your skepticism, then you may start questioning your skepticism and start believing in things :wink: , cause you will know there is nothing left to doubt and then maybe youll see yourself as just another piece like the rest of us and just because 2+2=4 doesnt mean ideas will fit the same way. there infinite paradigms and the ways they fit together are endless, you cant possibly assume since two are simillilar all are the same.


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What?

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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: ]
    #1205232 - 01/09/03 05:19 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

I agree with you Mr Mushrooms. Although crime rates appear to be correlated to religious rates, this may just be coincidence (and then again it might not be). We can't know.
Also, I don't think people kept accurate enough records to know with confidence if overall human behavior has gotten better or worse in the past few thousand years. We only know of significant events.

But I do still think it's interesting that crime rates appear that they could be correlated to religious rates (more religion, more crime).


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Anonymous

Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1205276 - 01/09/03 05:52 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Thanks for the affirmation Blue.

No one responded to my earlier statement (shades of Swami opining people ignore his point(s)).

"Your premise contains a subtle yet deadly and incorrect presupposition. I'll leave it to the members to figure out what it was.

In other words, your postulate was framed wrong."

Now what is the subtle presupposition?  Ah, that would be telling wouldn't it? :wink:

Of course there is another way of looking at this that no one has mentioned yet.

If Swami is right, Karl Marx is wrong.

Personally I think people are not as quick to act immoral when the sword of Damocles, i.e. hell, is hanging over their head.  Science has posited reasons for us to believe man is a mere germ.  Not that that would alter a person's actions. :smirk:

Swami say: Religion isn't the crackpipe of the people!

Others dissent. 

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: ]
    #1205300 - 01/09/03 06:09 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

OK, I concede. The introduction of spiritual techniques has worked quite well, not many people died in wars last century, world hunger and poverty are almost extinct and everyday the world gets closer to utopia thanks to meditation, worship and prayer.


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Anonymous

Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Swami]
    #1205306 - 01/09/03 06:18 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

I knew you would agree with me in the end. You are indeed very wise.

Ok, who's next?

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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: ]
    #1205435 - 01/09/03 07:12 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

This thread amuses the hell out of me...

I think I have a good William James quote that summarizes this thread quite well.
I'd post it, but it wouldn't matter... the ones who need to understand it, won't.


--------------------
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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: ]
    #1205500 - 01/09/03 07:43 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Now what is the subtle presupposition?

1) It was assumed that the world is not a more loving or compassionate place today than it was a few thousand years ago, which I don't think we can know for sure without better historical records.

2) It was assumed the message of God has been passed along correctly over 31 generations.

True, religion was supposed to make the world a better place, and true, the world doesn't appear to be that great.  But can we be certain this is all religion's fault given that not everyone in the world is religious???  I totally agree with Swami's conclusion, but I think a stronger argument can be made to prove the point, such as running a regression on the charts I posted to test the degree of correlation between crime and religion.  I don't think we can conclude that religion has done nothing to make the world a better place.  But it certainly hasn't made the world perfect, that's for certain.

If Swami is right, Karl Marx is wrong.

Hmmmm.  Since Swami's conclusion is that religion doesn't work.  That would indeed go against Karl Marx's teachings.  However, I don't see how that is relevant to the argument one way or another, unless you are trying to use the Argumentum ad verecundiam against Swami, which you know is a logical fallacy.  Shame on you Mr Mushrooms!  :wink:     


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InvisibleMountainMist
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Swami]
    #1205622 - 01/09/03 08:28 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Existence Is God Playing Hide And Seek With Himself :tongue: 

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Anonymous

Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1205782 - 01/10/03 12:03 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Oh Blue that is very clever of you.  I have this big silly grin right now. :laugh:

Later, I'll cut your heart out with a dull spoon and have it for lunch.

I am happy to see you do so well with the logic thingy.

The presupposition I am referring to is a subtle one and not the ones you stated, those are very obvious to me.  This one is subtle and deadly

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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: ]
    #1205893 - 01/10/03 02:17 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

The presupposition I am referring to is a subtle one and not the ones you stated, those are very obvious to me. This one is subtle and deadly.




I'm stumped.


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1205918 - 01/10/03 02:41 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

I'm stumped.

Have you looked into a prosthesis?



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The proof is in the pudding.

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Anonymous

Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Swami]
    #1206000 - 01/10/03 03:41 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

I absolutely love it when I am reading all serious and everything and then one of the those one liners pops out of nowhere and I choke with laughter.

*sigh* That was very funny.

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: ]
    #1206017 - 01/10/03 03:48 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

*Performs Heimlich Manouever on poor Plato*


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Anonymous

Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Swami]
    #1207103 - 01/10/03 12:11 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Have you noticed most of us here don't believe in any of those religions? So what does this have to do with any of us? We are all basically on the same page about not believing these everyday religions.
Do you think the 'crazy schitzo alien believing spirtualistic freak liars', as swami probably thinks of us, is considered into those statistics?
And if you're going to dog meditation, who have the monks been warring with? What happened to meditation on a RISE in our culture and doctor offices?

Edited by dustin (01/10/03 12:14 PM)

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: ]
    #1207183 - 01/10/03 12:59 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Read my opening post. There is no moral societal improvement from ANY spiritual technique or from use of ANY entheogen.

Clear enuff?


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The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineMurex
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: MountainMist]
    #1207203 - 01/10/03 01:14 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Existence Is God Playing Hide And Seek With Himself

That's a good one.  :wink:

As for the topic- I don't believe that religion and the crime rate have any corralation whatsoever. It would also be impossabe to prove this theroy because there are so many immeasureable factors that can sway the results. 


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Murex]
    #1207242 - 01/10/03 01:34 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

As for the topic- I don't believe that religion and the crime rate have any corralation whatsoever.

Exactly. Jesus taught peace and love. America is a predominantly Christian nation; therefore should reflect some more measureable degree of Christlikeness than other nations (it doesn't).

India is the nation most associated with meditation (or perhaps Tibet) so one would expect if meditation was the answer, India's condition would be superior, it isn't.

And so forth...


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineMurex
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Swami]
    #1207279 - 01/10/03 01:50 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

I see.

God really doesn't have to be the ultimate good in my book. There really isn't such thing imo.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Swami]
    #1207396 - 01/10/03 02:50 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Hey Swami have you seen those Tibetan monks who can survive in freezing conditions without any clothes on? Or the ones who can control their heartbeat at will? Wouldn't that be considered a "spiritual technique" that really works?


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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Adamist]
    #1207446 - 01/10/03 03:13 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Have you seen those Tibetan monks who can survive in freezing conditions without any clothes on? Or the ones who can control their heartbeat at will? Wouldn't that be considered a "spiritual technique" that really works?




Personally, I would consider those to be mental and physical techniques, not spiritual ones.


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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OfflineAdamist
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1207503 - 01/10/03 03:33 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

I guess the lines kind of blur there, since spirit can't even be scientifically defined. 

But the question is, does that mean it does not exist?  :wink:

And the answer is:
No one knows for sure!

Therefore, argueing about it one way or the other is conjecture. 


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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Adamist]
    #1207593 - 01/10/03 04:04 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

I guess the lines kind of blur there, since spirit can't even be scientifically defined. 

But the question is, does that mean it does not exist?  :wink:

And the answer is:
No one knows for sure!

Therefore, argueing about it one way or the other is conjecture.   




I agree with you completely brother.  I guess what I and everyone else are trying to do is see if we CAN come up with a proof one way or another about the spirit/God.  Wouldn't it be cool if someone on these boards did come up with a proof?  The Shroomery would achieve instant international fame, and maybe people everywhere would support the legalization of mushrooms!!!  :cool: 


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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OfflineAdamist
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1207599 - 01/10/03 04:07 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Man, I am still stuck on whether or not objective proof is even possible...  :tongue: 


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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Adamist]
    #1207626 - 01/10/03 04:17 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Man, I am still stuck on whether or not objective proof is even possible...  :tongue: 




I don't think anyone knows, but it's certainly worth a shot!  :wink: 


--------------------
:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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OfflineAdamist
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1207636 - 01/10/03 04:20 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

I mean, I've finally figured out that there IS an objective truth... It exists regardless of whether or not we prove it...

But it's like asking the mouse in the maze to proove what the maze is made out of... See what I'm saying? Is it even possible to know an objective truth when you exist within it?


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OfflineRemy
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Swami]
    #1207815 - 01/10/03 05:47 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

As for the topic- I don't believe that religion and the crime rate have any corralation whatsoever.

Exactly. Jesus taught peace and love. America is a predominantly Christian nation; therefore should reflect some more measureable degree of Christlikeness than other nations (it doesn't).




Christ's teachings have been distorted by money, power and politics so much, that it is quite hard to understand the essence of them (or whats left of it). I know few christians who have sat down and read the bible. Christianity, Islam, and Judaism are so full of obfuscation, and excess thought, that is quite hard to understand, or capture the essence of them.

Quote:

India is the nation most associated with meditation (or perhaps Tibet) so one would expect if meditation was the answer, India's condition would be superior, it isn't.




Meditation is not a religion. Your stereotyping of the India/Indian's proves very litte, like any stereotyping, and most of your "points" in this thread.

Quote:

And so forth...




What about Japan? Primarily Buddhist (Zen) and Shintoist, almost everyone is either buddhist or both. Almost no murder rate, crime, or drug use. Overcrowding in major cities, but little poverty, general happiness and well-being of the population, long life expectancy, the list goes on. Buddhism focuses on balance, and its teachings are very essential, and without all the loads of bullshit piled on (most buddhist texts can be finished in one sitting). The most highly motivated, and evolved nation, is coincidentally, a Zen Buddhist country. A simple coincidence? I think not.

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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Remy]
    #1207838 - 01/10/03 06:01 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

What about Japan? Primarily Buddhist (Zen) and Shintoist, almost everyone is either buddhist or both. Almost no murder rate, crime, or drug use. Overcrowding in major cities, but little poverty, general happiness and well-being of the population, long life expectancy, the list goes on. Buddhism focuses on balance, and its teachings are very essential, and without all the loads of bullshit piled on (most buddhist texts can be finished in one sitting). The most highly motivated, and evolved nation, is coincidentally, a Zen Buddhist country. A simple coincidence? I think not.



A little over half a century ago, the same nation was brutallizing people of other nationalities. One example: they experimented with biological weapons by dropping contaminated chocolates among starving Chinese children and then after the disease was in full effect, they walked in wearing protective gear and dissected the victims while they were still alive.

They were fairly civilized with each other, it took a major ass-kicking before they exhibited civility towards other nations and peoples.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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OfflineRemy
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Evolving]
    #1207955 - 01/10/03 06:45 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

little over half a century ago, the same nation was brutallizing people of other nationalities. One example: they experimented with biological weapons by dropping contaminated chocolates among starving Chinese children and then after the disease was in full effect, they walked in wearing protective gear and dissected the victims while they were still alive.

They were fairly civilized with each other, it took a major ass-kicking before they exhibited civility towards other nations and peoples.




I took all this into consideration when I made my post. First of all, I am talking about the now. And second of all, I am talking in the now. Overall, I would say Japan as a nation has consistently existed at a more evolved level than the rest of the world. Sure, they've gone through some politcal phases, but as far as a people goes, they have always lived to a higher standard.

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InvisibleOkEyToKeY
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... *DELETED* [Re: Remy]
    #1208076 - 01/10/03 07:55 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Post deleted by OkEyToKeY

Reason for deletion: .


Edited by OkEyToKeY (01/10/03 07:56 PM)

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Remy]
    #1208102 - 01/10/03 08:12 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Meditation is not a religion.
And? Is not the title of this thread "... or Spiritual Techniques"? Does one of us have a reading comprehension problem?

Your stereotyping of the India/Indian's proves very litte, like any stereotyping, and most of your "points" in this thread.
Meditation is not associated with India? *raises eyebrows* Lets consider the meditation teachers or models in the US from the last century:

Yogananda - Indian
Babaji - Indian
Rajneesh - Indian
Chimnoy - Indian
Meher Baba - Indian
Swami Satchindananda - Indian
Swami Maharishi - Indian
BK Iyengar - Indian
Swami Muktananda - Indian
Krishnamurti - Indian
etc.

Geez what was I thinking? And your lucid point is?



--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Remy]
    #1208113 - 01/10/03 08:18 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

What about Japan?

What about them? They brutally tortured and killed many tens of thousands of American, Chinese, Philipino, Malayasian and other prisoners of war and were on a par with the Nazis in many respects. I guess that is a clear sign of moral maturity and spiritual awakening to you. Please don't tell me that that was 50 years ago and doesn't count as it was after thousands of years of meditation.

They got their ass kicked hard and settled down. Maybe that is what caused their awakening instead of sitting in za-zen.



--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Anonymous

Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Evolving]
    #1208119 - 01/10/03 08:21 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

And one of the highest suicide rates in the world. Hap-hap-happy.

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InvisibleAcidic_SlothM
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: ]
    #1208120 - 01/10/03 08:22 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Whee!! *BANG!*


--------------------
-- Accept my heart warming gift of TREE SCRATCHIES!!! I absolve thee!! --

JaP: 30,000 lines of gay, cock, and fag can't be wrong
Ped: only in #shroomery is "smuggle opium in her ass" followed by "i don't want shitty opium" which is followed by " *** Joins: PENISSQUAD"
--
JaP: What would this place be without random sluts?
JaP: Nothing, I tell you.


:heart: :todcasil: :heart:

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Anonymous

Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Swami]
    #1208293 - 01/10/03 11:26 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

As for the topic- I don't believe that religion and the crime rate have any corralation whatsoever.

Exactly. Jesus taught peace and love. America is a predominantly Christian nation; therefore should reflect some more measureable degree of Christlikeness than other nations (it doesn't).

India is the nation most associated with meditation (or perhaps Tibet) so one would expect if meditation was the answer, India's condition would be superior, it isn't.

And so forth...




You were given sound evidence and you dismissed it. Since that is the case I can only assume:

1.) You are arguing for argument's sake.
2.) You cannot understand the evidence.
3.) You have a vested interest that precludes you from seeing a different view.

Please continue as you are and you will get what you have got.

Cheerio

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OfflineAdamist
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: OkEyToKeY]
    #1208432 - 01/11/03 03:38 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Welcome OkEyToKeY, and great post! :smile: 


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: ]
    #1208439 - 01/11/03 03:46 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

You were given sound evidence and you dismissed it. Since that is the case I can only assume:

1.) You are arguing for argument's sake.
2.) You cannot understand the evidence.
3.) You have a vested interest that precludes you from seeing a different view.


or

4.) You gave evidence that wasn't sound. Funny how you overlook that major possibility.

Please continue as you are and you will get what you have got.
Ah, nothing like a catchy New Age quote.

How about, "Apply ineffectual techniques and you will remain where you are."

Most everyone here has short-term memory loss and forgets that I was once one of the "believers". I was a church-going alter boy with stars in his eyes, then did yoga, meditation, creative visualization and vegetarianism for 12 years as well as many psychedelic adventures. Yes, there were some physical health benefits, but no contact with a higher power nor prayers answered.

So in your mind 12 years of dedication and practice was not enough. Maybe another decade and I would have got it.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineRemy
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Swami]
    #1208466 - 01/11/03 04:24 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

What about them? They brutally tortured and killed many tens of thousands of American, Chinese, Philipino, Malayasian and other prisoners of war and were on a par with the Nazis in many respects. I guess that is a clear sign of moral maturity and spiritual awakening to you. Please don't tell me that that was 50 years ago and doesn't count as it was after thousands of years of meditation




A small page in their history, and one that was clearly not a cause of the people as a whole, just some sick bloodthirsty generals who worked their way into power. I highly doubt an average citizen of Japan would have done the same, or have even condoned those killings. Was Hitler's will that of all Germans?

And as for the suicide rate, which would you rather have in your country a high murder rate or a high suicide rate? Most of these flaws, and eras of error, are due to the influence of western culture. The suicide rate in Japan is almost exclusive to business men losing large sums of money. Suicide is also a generally accepted form of death in their country, and is not looked down upon like it is here(it dates back to pre-feudal Japan, as a part of Samurai tradition).

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OfflineRemy
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Swami]
    #1208508 - 01/11/03 04:56 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

And? Is not the title of this thread "... or Spiritual Techniques"? Does one of us have a reading comprehension problem?





Yes, that is my error, meditation can be used a spiritual technique. However, it is not the principle of any Indian religions I can think of, and it does work. Meditation serves its purpose exactly as it is supposed too.

Quote:

Meditation is not associated with India? *raises eyebrows* Lets consider the meditation teachers or models in the US from the last century:




So several frauds, cult leaders, and "gurus" have worked their way into American culture using meditation as one of their principle teachings. Do you really believe that all of the people of India like these so called 'spiritual leaders?' My personal opinion of India is that it, like most of the world, it is a spiritual mess.

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OfflineNomad
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Remy]
    #1208513 - 01/11/03 04:57 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

A small page in their history, and one that was clearly not a cause of the people as a whole, just some sick bloodthirsty generals who worked their way into power. I highly doubt an average citizen of Japan would have done the same, or have even condoned those killings.

You make some great posts, Remy, but this one doesn't hold. Believe it or not, but the japanese war was actively supported by prominent zen masters. There's a book called "Zen at War", written by a zen master of the soto sect. Here's a review:

http://www.darkzen.com/Articles/zenholy.html

I think Swami's argument is sound. But the fun thing is that it is not an argument against spiritual practice, it is an argument against everything:


"Hey, let's go drink a beer."

"Oh, come on, if drinking beer really worked, then the world would have actually changed and progressed in regards to human love and compassion, but it hasn't. Forget it."



Edited by Nomad (01/11/03 04:58 AM)

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OfflineAdamist
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Nomad]
    #1208521 - 01/11/03 05:00 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Lmao.

The fault is not in the tools themselves but in the people who use them.


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OfflineRemy
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Nomad]
    #1208556 - 01/11/03 05:16 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

When Hitler was in reign, many nations of good people experienced some form spiritual or physical holocaust. Any so called 'Zen Master' who condones mass killings, or war of these sorts, is no different than your average Osama. It is a very sad thing when religious and political leaders agree on wrong doing. For they hold the very delicate power to influence their peoples. However, I still believe the Japanese people, as a nation and a culture, live to a higher standard than many other nations. Corruption will always find its way into any human organization, for that is it's nature. I think the best is this thread is as follows:

Quote:

The fault is not in the tools themselves but in the people who use them.





The blindness of men is our worst flaw of all.

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Nomad]
    #1208603 - 01/11/03 05:39 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

"Oh, come on, if drinking beer really worked, then the world would have actually changed and progressed in regards to human love and compassion, but it hasn't. Forget it."

Gee, I didn't know that Annheiser Busch CLAIMED beer drinking would lead to those things. However many people here claim that:

Religious /spiritual techniques can have a positive impact in one's life (Where is the large-scale (i.e. non-anecdotal) support for that claim?)

Mushrooms / LSD can have a positive impact in one's life (Where is the large-scale (i.e. non-anecdotal) support for that claim?)

Sorry you can't see the difference. (And yes I appreciate your humor, but not your logic.)





--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineNomad
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Swami]
    #1208700 - 01/11/03 06:19 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

However many people here claim that: Religious /spiritual techniques can have a positive impact in one's life (Where is the large-scale (i.e. non-anecdotal) support for that claim?)

If the claim is that spiritual techniques can have a positive impact in one's life, then anecdotal evidence is enough to support that point.

Gee, I didn't know that Annheiser Busch CLAIMED beer drinking would lead to those things.

Love and compassion are universal human values. I'd say that even beer drinkers would like to live in a world filled with love and compassion, and, in a way, focus their actions on that goal. But if you are not into examples based on beer, here's another one: In the past, much of the motivation of scientists has been to create a better world - that's compassion, in a nutshell. And probably love, too. So where is that love and compassion in this world? Obviously, science does not work (duh).




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Anonymous

Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Nomad]
    #1209128 - 01/11/03 09:29 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Now why'd you go and  expose the subtle yet deadly and incorrect presupposition?

You probably tell people the ending of a movie who haven't seen it too, don't you?

:grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:

Nice to see you posting. :smile:


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OfflineNomad
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: ]
    #1209155 - 01/11/03 09:40 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Thanks, sir. Would like to see some more posts from you, though. Sometime, you should bring up your point about LSD and treatment of alcoholism again, will ya? That's a good one.  :laugh: 

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Anonymous

Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Nomad]
    #1209169 - 01/11/03 09:44 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Unfortunately I have to limit my posts because of other responsibilities I have for the Shroomery.

The study done with LSD and alcoholism had a near zero recidivism rate.  Then, the government made further studies illegal.

Your brilliant mind is scary.

Please continue. :wink: :smile: :laugh:

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OfflineEchoVortex
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Swami]
    #1211244 - 01/12/03 05:50 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Gee, I didn't know that Annheiser Busch CLAIMED beer drinking would lead to those things. However many people here claim that:

Religious /spiritual techniques can have a positive impact in one's life (Where is the large-scale (i.e. non-anecdotal) support for that claim?)

Mushrooms / LSD can have a positive impact in one's life (Where is the large-scale (i.e. non-anecdotal) support for that claim?)






The claim is that meditation and/or psychadelics "can have a positive impact in one's life", not that these things can reform life in our fallen world. Since the claim is only made for the individual, there is no need to provide "large-scale" evidence to support the claim. Anecdotal evidence suffices for individual claims. If I say that meditation and psychadelics have had a "positive impact" on MY life, how on earth could you possibly refute me? Especially since the claim is a only for "positive impact" and not for something like "eternal bliss" or "omniscience."

What percentage of the people in the world do you think have done psychadelics? Even more importantly than that, what percentage of people in the world actually practice meditation daily, and do so in a committed and disciplined fashion? Confusing a meditative discipline with "religion" (which could amount to nothing more than mumbling "Yeah, I'm a Christian" (or whatever) doesn't make a lot of sense.

You also make the common mistake of assuming that religion is some kind of premodern version of social work, whose goal and purpose is to reform this fallen world. Most religions accept that THIS world is an irredeemable place of suffering and/or wickedness and will always remain so, and precisely for that reason set their sights on the transcendent.

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1211298 - 01/12/03 06:34 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Since the claim is only made for the individual, there is no need to provide "large-scale" evidence to support the claim.
If you want to provide a causal link then large-scale evidence is the ticket. Otherwise the external technique cound be confused with self hynosis or self-delusion. This is how the medical field operates to test efficacy of a treatment.

Using your narrow defintion, wife-beating could make an individual feel better - so what?

If I say that meditation and psychadelics have had a "positive impact" on MY life, how on earth could you possibly refute me?
I can't. But unless the tool is effective for large numbers, we cannot be sure the positive effect is from the tool or technique. This is basic and quite simple to grasp.

What percentage of the people in the world do you think have done psychadelics?
I am not omnisicent despite popular rumors.

Even more importantly than that, what percentage of people in the world actually practice meditation daily, and do so in a committed and disciplined fashion?
Still not onmisicient. Have gained no supernatural powers since the last paragraph.

Confusing a meditative discipline with "religion" (which could amount to nothing more than mumbling "Yeah, I'm a Christian" (or whatever) doesn't make a lot of sense.
Classic strawman. Refute me on what I have said. I have never confused the two.

You also make the common mistake of assuming that religion is some kind of premodern version of social work,
It is a logical fallacy to tell the other party what he thinks. You should know better than that by now. It IS correct form to ask for clarification.

Most religions accept that THIS world is an irredeemable place of suffering and/or wickedness and will always remain so, and precisely for that reason set their sights on the transcendent.
Not at all true. Christian missionaries goal is to bring the WORD to everyone and thus transform the world.



--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Swami]
    #1211828 - 01/12/03 11:31 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

As much as i dislike to admit it Swamster, that is one of the best arguments i have ever seen/read against the "reality" of there being a higher power.....and i HATE you for it! :wink:..... mind you i still do not agree but at the same time i can not argue with you.......as always..lol.....  a pleasure reading your posts though, even more so after a prolonged(relatively) absence............. 


--------------------
"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"


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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Swami]
    #1211879 - 01/12/03 11:57 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

The number of spontaneous awakenings (if they exist) would probably happen anyway without any forced methodology

They DO exist Swamster, although they do seem to manifest themselves somewhat rarely, obviously i have no explanation as to why this is so, however i will testify from peronal experinece(while simultaneously admitting i can provide no empiracally verifiable "proof" right NOW) as to their existence

..... i was able to provide proof(even though that was NOT my intent, to me intent to prove ANYthing wrieks of ego imho) those with whom i had personal "karmic" connections at the time(ie, predicting exatly what was going to occur within the space time continuum with the next minute etc.....

my reward was to scare the living crapola out of my "frends' and have them dissociate from me lol

All i can honestly say in closing Swami, is that these personal transformations/altered states of being/enlightened conciousness ARE available to the personal egoistic man, if HE would know, he must go within himself.....end of story! :smile:

 


--------------------
"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"


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OfflineRemy
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #1211895 - 01/12/03 12:02 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

But then again, it could just be the nature of the beast (God) that is misunderstood. Swami's points could certainly be used as an argument for that as well.

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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Swami]
    #1211969 - 01/12/03 12:37 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Religious /spiritual techniques can have a positive impact in one's life (Where is the large-scale (i.e. non-anecdotal) support for that claim?)

All i wish to suggest here Swami, is that perhaps those that have undergone a "radical" transformation of being/conciousness are not(or ever were) in the public eye as they have/had no egoistic NEED to pubically proclaim thier new found inner wisdom/enlightenment?...

i  know when it "happened" to me, i wasn't running through the streets like a religious zealot......when in that state of being one fully understands that the universal conciousness(or whatever) is fully in control, has always been so and will always be so, without the (even benign) attempts by the individual self to alter it's course....

  i don't remember who said it here but the ego is not so much transcended as it it is transformed...., this is MY own personal experience, i can't pretend to project/extrapolate upon it "universal truth", however i will not deny my experience either......

Annheiser Busch CLAIMED beer drinking would lead to those things

well wtf not?? they claim it will lead you to wealth, unlimited female comanionship, a nice car and everything else! :grin: 


--------------------
"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Remy]
    #1212003 - 01/12/03 12:55 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Remy: But then again, it could just be the nature of the beast (God) that is misunderstood. Swami's points could certainly be used as an argument for that as well.

Finally... we're getting somewhere.

Now I can bring up the "Asshole God" argument...


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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OfflineRemy
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #1212102 - 01/12/03 01:41 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

i don't remember who said it here but the ego is not so much transcended as it it is transformed...., this is MY own personal experience, i can't pretend to project/extrapolate upon it "universal truth", however i will not deny my experience either......




This is quite an interesting point, and something I have been thinking about. What exactly is the ego? I recently read Anthem, by Ayn Rand, and I have been thinking about the ending. I have always considered the ego a bad thing, and something we should strive to conquer, but Rand's 'Ego' is different. It is not one that trys to control the self, or control others, but it is simply the self. It strives for whats best for itself in both the short and long run. It tells you to remember yourself, before worrying about others. It is an ego, however, that does not wish to harm others, or strive to be better than them. Is the ego that is referred to in a bad light, a 'false ego'? Is it the equivalent of the soul/spirit? or is it what's in between, seperate (yet connected) to the false ego, and the soul?

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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Remy]
    #1212158 - 01/12/03 02:07 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

I have always considered the ego a bad thing, and something we should strive to conquer,

  Hey there Remy.....without the existence of a personal "ego" imo, there would be no springboard into supra conciousness/enlightenment/nirvana etc...i believe there has to be a point(personal ego) at which the individual can in fact overcome his/her personal "identity" in order to experience the the universal love/wisdom/conciousness that (i believe) exists within us all....i believe the ego does serve a purpose, if only to build a substantial ground(relatively) upon which an individual can transcend/transform it.......just some random thoughts :smile: 


--------------------
"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"


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OfflineEchoVortex
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Swami]
    #1212250 - 01/12/03 02:47 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

If you want to provide a causal link then large-scale evidence is the ticket. Otherwise the external technique cound be confused with self hynosis or self-delusion. This is how the medical field operates to test efficacy of a treatment.

Physical illness is a false analogy. If I can "delude" or "hypnotize" myself into being a more compassionate person, I have succeeded in becoming a more compassionate person. That is something quite different from deluding myself into believing I have perfectly healthy arteries when in fact they are clogged. If I BELIEVE I am happier, I am in fact happier, by definition.

Using your narrow defintion, wife-beating could make an individual feel better - so what?

I can objectively verify that the act of my meditation does not involve any physical force or violence on another human being or living being of any sort. A wife beater cannot say the same.

I can't. But unless the tool is effective for large numbers, we cannot be sure the positive effect is from the tool or technique. This is basic and quite simple to grasp.

The tool doesn't have to be effective for "large numbers" of the human race so much as it has to be effective for "a high percentage of those using them." Simply because many people do not accept or bother to practice meditation does not mean that it is "ineffective." There are many people who cannot do calculus: that doesn't mean that calculus is "ineffective." There are many people who (still) believe that the Earth is flat, even though the roundness of the Earth is an absolute fact. Even with absolute facts there are individuals who refuse to believe and accept them--how much more so when it comes to more ambiguous cases.

Since neither you nor I know with complete certainty what percentage of the world population has meditated or experimented with psychadelics (and what percentage has done both) it is impossible to determine what percentage received a "positive effect." In fact, there is no methodology to determine even what a "positive effect" is. Therefore it is true that no person can prove conclusively that meditation and/or psychadelics work for everybody. They probably DON'T work for everybody, just as the vast majority of pharmaceuticals don't work for EVERYBODY (and some people will actually die from medicines that save other peoples' lives). However, there is an overwhelming amount of anecdotal evidence that meditation and/or psychadelics DO work at least some of the time for some people. That being the case, they cannot be dismissed out of court. Your argument isn't a trump card by any means, and any individual would be justified in experimenting for himself, just as he would experiment with any medicine.

Not at all true. Christian missionaries goal is to bring the WORD to everyone and thus transform the world.

Incorrect. Christian theology is preoccupied with saving human souls and securing a place in heaven in the afterlife. The emphasis is always on the AFTERLIFE, not on THIS LIFE. If it were, Christians would be willing to spend eternity in hell just to enjoy a utopian lifestyle while they are alive. This is clearly not the case. The saints of the Christian tradition often made their lives living hells in order to enjoy the fruits of eternal paradise. Western monotheism sees this world as a training ground for the soul, a place to ensure one's place in heaven, not as the final destination of their labors.

Same thing with Muslim fanatics. Why on earth would they kill themselves for their cause if they believed that THIS world is what really matters?

I would agree with you that organized religion has done little to make the world a better place. I would argue though that there is a distinction between the psycho-spiritual technique of meditation and the trappings and verbiage of organized religion. It was my impression that you believed that there was NO DIFFERENCE in terms of their effectiveness in improving indiviudal behavior. If I was mistaken in that assumption, I apologize.

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OfflineAdamist
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1212336 - 01/12/03 03:28 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Awesome reply. Took the words right outta my mind.  :smile: 


--------------------
:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:

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Anonymous

Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1212376 - 01/12/03 03:45 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Score:

Spiritual minded peeps 3
Swami 1

[goes back to lurking Mod style]

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OfflineMurex
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Swami]
    #1212513 - 01/12/03 04:29 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

I'm with Freak on this one Swami.

How can you possably get anywhere when you deny the very thought of experiencing oneness with God/universe/higher consiousness?

:tongue:


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Murex]
    #1212536 - 01/12/03 04:34 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

I really don't care how many peeps are with who or what the score is. Physical training techniques show demonstrable and repeatable results with no excuses, spiritual training techniques seem to have a limitless number of excuses why they fail to work.



--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineAdamist
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Swami]
    #1212548 - 01/12/03 04:37 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Physical does not = spiritual.


--------------------
:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:

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OfflineMurex
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Swami]
    #1212582 - 01/12/03 04:49 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Physical training techniques show demonstrable and repeatable results with no excuses, spiritual training techniques seem to have a limitless number of excuses why they fail to work.

Take 5 dries grams and sit in a pitch black room for 6 hours- then tell me there was nothing spiritual there.  :wink: 


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


Edited by Murex (01/12/03 04:50 PM)

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OfflineRemy
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Swami]
    #1212773 - 01/12/03 06:10 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

I really don't care how many peeps are with who or what the score is. Physical training techniques show demonstrable and repeatable results with no excuses, spiritual training techniques seem to have a limitless number of excuses why they fail to work




Sure there are working physical techniques, but there are also plenty of bullshit phsyical techniques that produce very little desirable effects. All of them produce some effect, but only a few are truely effective in the long run. The same goes for spiritual techniques. There are some that work, and many that do not. Meditation is consistently effective, while prayer is rarely effective. Its like the difference between Aikido and Tae-bo.

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OfflineRemy
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #1212787 - 01/12/03 06:13 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Hey there Remy.....without the existence of a personal "ego" imo, there would be no springboard into supra conciousness/enlightenment/nirvana etc...i believe there has to be a point(personal ego) at which the individual can in fact overcome his/her personal "identity" in order to experience the the universal love/wisdom/conciousness that (i believe) exists within us all....i believe the ego does serve a purpose, if only to build a substantial ground(relatively) upon which an individual can transcend/transform it.......just some random thoughts




This is how I have always viewed it, but as of late, i have been speculating on whether or not there is such thing as a good ego. Once we can control the ego, should we try to keep it under control, or should we use it in a way to make our spirit prosper?

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