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Offlineshaggy101
Male

Registered: 08/17/00
Posts: 1,816
Loc: ..still waiting for godot
Last seen: 8 years, 10 months
Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: Turbulence]
    #1426745 - 04/03/03 06:10 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

the more we learn about each other, the less we kill each other.






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OfflineZahid
Stranger
Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 4,779
Last seen: 17 years, 3 months
Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: MAIA]
    #1426952 - 04/03/03 08:16 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Oh really ?! I Don't need to go checking IPs, the human fault is enough.
Three people supporting each other. The two puppets have a similar writting skill, they build the message in the same way and the three of you make a similar footer with exactly 20 dashes "--------------------". Now, that is too much of a coincidence or ..... go ahead think it !!!!


No, you don't 'need' to go checking IPs because you know you'll be proven wrong. I'm not a retard, if I were to use puppets I wouldn't be as obvious as SlapnutRob and Turbulance (I would have simply voiced an opinion of Islam being peaceful, as opposed to posting as another Muslim) which leads me to believe someone is fucking with me. If they're not just messing around, wa alaykom salaam to them. Puppets? Give me some credit, alot of people here don't like me but I'm not some loser. Again, your practical error was jumping the gun; and clinging violently to the ego.


--------------------


Edited by Zahid (04/03/03 08:21 PM)


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OfflineZahid
Stranger
Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 4,779
Last seen: 17 years, 3 months
Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: DrubuShrume]
    #1426978 - 04/03/03 08:27 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

What makes you think that the wars prophecised by Muhommad(sp8) aren't occuring between the west and the Muslims. It could be metaphoric, as the west will drain whoever it can of its resources and try to control everything. If the Koran has anything to say about a Chirstian war (Bush is obviously spiritual) or some type of Christian control movement, then maybe we are blinded by civilization.

An interesting and unrelated note, the Beloved Prophet Muhammad (saw) once made the prediction that abundant riches will be found under the Euphrates river and powerful nations will fight over it.


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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
Son of Uncle Meat
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/06/02
Posts: 19,058
Loc: Toronto Canada
Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: Zahid]
    #1426997 - 04/03/03 08:33 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

The really sad thing here(imo) is that we even need religion or the promise of a better afterlife in order to treat our fellow beings with respect and kindness.......


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"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"



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OfflineZahid
Stranger
Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 4,779
Last seen: 17 years, 3 months
Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #1427013 - 04/03/03 08:37 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Are you saying order is lost without religion? :-)


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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
Son of Uncle Meat
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Registered: 06/06/02
Posts: 19,058
Loc: Toronto Canada
Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: Zahid]
    #1427040 - 04/03/03 08:54 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

i don't know Zahid, i really don't. i'd LIKE to think that we as a species wouldn't turn into a pack of looting, raping, violent animals* if the hope or belief in any kind of afterlife were proven to be a man made concept in order to validate his/her existence beyond the grave.........i CAN honestly say that i wouldn't conduct my life any differently than i am now if such were the case(i think i posted a week ago or so asking the people here at the Shroomery how their behaviour would change if it could be proved beyond a doubt that all thoughts/ideas/beliefs about an afterlife were fallacious), and i'd LIKE to believe i'm not the exception to the rule........BUT......* wait a sec! The bulk of humanity DOES believe in some form of afterlife and divine retribution(under whatever name and guise) and yet as a collectivist unit we ARE behaving like a pack of animals...... :crazy: 


--------------------
"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"



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Offlinefriartuck
Man of God

Registered: 03/29/03
Posts: 2,007
Loc: England
Last seen: 18 years, 2 months
Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: Turbulence]
    #1427089 - 04/03/03 09:38 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

>the more we learn about each other, the less we kill each other.


I find it interesting that Muslims believe that it is Jesus who will return to judge the living and the dead.


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This post has been brought to you by:

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Never give up, never surrender.

If you're seeing bitterness, perhaps the time has come to clean the shit from your eyes.


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 7 years, 14 days
Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: ]
    #1428243 - 04/04/03 09:47 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

One can rationalize, claim "out of context", "mistranslation", "misinterpretation" or whatever till the cows come home, the truth of the matter is that the Qu'ran has some pretty harsh recommendations on how best to deal with infidels. Mr Mushrooms included a handful of quotations, there are many, many more he could have added.

As just one example, the penalty for apostasy is death. That's one you won't see Zahid try to refute, because it cannot be refuted. Ask any Imam, go to any Muslim discussion board, read the relevant passages in the Qu'ran -- all say the same thing. This is no misinterpretation or misquote -- it is Islamic policy, the penalty decreed by Allah through his prophet Muhammed, peace be upon him.

Islam is unquestionably a harsh and violent religion in its treatment of infidels and ex-members. I could comment on the other Abrahamic religions, but Mr Mushrooms' instructions were clear that this thread is about Islam, not about other religions, so I won't.

pinky


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OfflineTurbulence
Stranger
Registered: 02/01/03
Posts: 8
Loc: Ottawa, Canada
Last seen: 18 years, 9 months
Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: friartuck]
    #1429607 - 04/04/03 07:43 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

You've been misinformed. Jesus returns and slays the devil, he does not judge people or souls. Allah all Mighty ( God ) judges souls and hearts of men.




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Black Dog in a world of pigs, waiting for the wolves.....




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OfflineZahid
Stranger
Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 4,779
Last seen: 17 years, 3 months
Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: Phred]
    #1429634 - 04/04/03 07:56 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

The death penalty is given to apostates who betray the Muslim army in any way; not apostates in general.


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OfflineSlapnutRob
Toolhead

Registered: 03/31/03
Posts: 520
Loc: Michigan
Last seen: 12 years, 6 months
Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: ]
    #1429824 - 04/04/03 08:57 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Maia thinks I'm a puppet :mad:  Everything I said in that post was true, and I'm not even a Muslim, as I stated.  I'm kind of in that state Zahid used to be where I totally dismissed Christianity a while ago, and I am currently studying Islam, particularly when there's a huge Muslim population at my college and I think I should have an understanding. That's not to say I'm going to convert soon, especially over a trip. I was kind of spelling out my understanding of Islam and was wondering if Zahid could comment on it. . 


--------------------
Anything stated above is fictional roleplay dialog by the character that is Slapnut Rob, in no way representing the actions or beliefs of the man behind the keys.


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 7 years, 14 days
Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: Zahid]
    #1430248 - 04/05/03 12:09 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Zahid writes:

The death penalty is given to apostates who betray the Muslim army in any way; not apostates in general.

Ah. I see. So the learned discourses on the Muslim websites I visited immediately after the September 11 attacks (two of which included multiple quotes from both the Qu'ran and several respected Imams) in order to refresh my memory of Islamic principles were incorrect?

Or is it that all Muslims are metaphorically considered part of Islam's sacred army?

I would like to see some surahs showing that the average man in the street apostate is not to be killed. Thanks.

pinky


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Anonymous

Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: Zahid]
    #1430863 - 04/05/03 07:54 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Ok, I finally have time to get back to this.  Thanks for your patience.

In fact, for the longest time Muhammad commanded the Muslims not to fight back - eventually, after much pacifism, God commanded Muhammad to defend himself.

Could you please cite a reference for this?

Me:Questions like how do you know that the people at the top of the organization you belong to, if you belong to an organization, aren't linked to Al-Queda?

Z:I don't know. Do you suggest I no longer donate to causes that help my brothers and sisters in Islam? What if that ounce you just bought somehow supported the Bali bombings? :-)

I don't buy drugs. :smile:  I don't know what to suggest.  There is a drive-thru liquor store not far from where I live owned by Muslims.  My wife and I have vaccillated back and forth on buying anything from them since 9/11.  We had established a prety good rapport with them prior to 9/11, sharing places to buy tahini and recipes and stuff.

We have always wondered if some of that money went to Al-Queda.  I think more importantly to me is whether you would continue to give money to the group if you knew it went to Al-Queda.  Would you?

Me: And what in the world would possess you to join a group of people or a religion that bombed your country?!?!? >>>>To me, that is just nuts. That is why I think it is hard for someone to have any credibility for "joining up" when you did.>>>>I mean, what did your neighbors think? Your parent? I think you said you live in a small town in Montana. Now to me that sounds like gun-toting, tobacco chewing, "America love it or leave it" country. Haven't you been persecuted for your belief???

Z:I'm Canadian. :-) And yes, alot of people out here are ignorant and think I have sympathy for terrorists (a couple of my co-workers do).

So after your neighbor country was attacked in the most vicious way possible in its history, then you decided to join a group somewhat alighed with the ones who attacked it? :confused:

That would be like me joining them after they bombed Montreal or Toronto.  I cannot understand that.

Me:You seem to rely on experience for what you believe. There are many experiences that one can have especially if one is on drugs.>>>>How do you know your interpretation of spiritual reality is the correct one? Or is there a correct one?

Z:My mystical experiences are very real to me, and I am always left bewildered; whatever it is that unveils itself, is the source of all reality. I'm afraid I cannot elaborate much further than that - al-Ghayb cannot be described in terms other than 'knowing'.

I share a similar history.  My 'conversion' to the Jesus movement was predicated on "experience".  But after I learned a few critical thinking skills I was able to extricate myself from delusion.

There are many "faiths", Zahid, that rely on some kind of "experience" for their authority.  Can you see that if that is what one is going on there is no way to differentiate the authority of one faith from another???

You and Markos both claim some kind of "gnosis" to be the foundation for what each of you claim to be Truth.  And yet one must be right and the other wrong.  The fundamental rule of logic is the Law of Non-contradiction.  It cannot be violated.

Does it concern you at all that you might be in error?  Or do you mindlessly follow a faith built upon experience without checking it out to see if it adheres to reason?  These issues are serious ones that require serious thought.

And lastly, I too, am interested in the surahs that declare apostates are not to be killed if they are not under the military section you referred to.  Could you post them?

Thanks for this most interesting conversation.

Cheers,
 


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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
Son of Uncle Meat
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/06/02
Posts: 19,058
Loc: Toronto Canada
Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: ]
    #1430869 - 04/05/03 08:11 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

And yet one must be right and the other wrong."

Greetings Mr. Shrooms :smile: isn't it possible that they could BOTH be wrong?(not even suggesting that either one of them is but just raising the question) 


--------------------
"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"



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Anonymous

Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #1430897 - 04/05/03 09:05 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Shhh, you're not supposed to mention the possibility of a contrary instead of a contradictory. :laugh:

Yes, you are correct.  It is possible for both to be wrong.  But it isn't possible for both to be correct and that was my main point.

Cheers,


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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
Son of Uncle Meat
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Registered: 06/06/02
Posts: 19,058
Loc: Toronto Canada
Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: ]
    #1430910 - 04/05/03 09:25 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

But it isn't possible for both to be correct and that was my main point."


Ahhhhh, okay, got cha! i thought that may have been your intent while i was reading your post but i spent a bit of time(my first) in the political forum yesterday and i guess i'm still feeling the FX :grin: btw man, is a "contrary" and an "excluded middle" even vaguely connected/synonomous? That's an honest question, i really don't know :smile:
 


--------------------
"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"



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Anonymous

Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #1430919 - 04/05/03 09:45 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I'll answer but I don't want to derail this thread.  We all could learn something from it.

A contrary is something that exists as an alternative but not necessarily contradicts something else.

Example:

All swans are white.
No swans are white.  This is contradictory.  If one of those statements is true, the other is has to be false.

But even though those statements exist as contradictories a third possibility exists, i.e. some swans are white.  That is a contrary.

Fallacy of the excluded middle is very similar.

If you argued that "all swans were white" as a result of someone saying "no swans were white" you would be guilty of ignoring the fact that some swans might be white.

In other words, if I said that "all terrorists that attack the United States from another country were Muslims" and thereby implied that all Muslims were terrorists, someone would be quick to point out that only some Muslims were terrorists.  My statement would contain the logical error of the excluded middle.

Hope that helps. :smile:


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Offlinearabmobster
#1

Registered: 04/01/03
Posts: 317
Loc: Palestine
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
Re: Islam, religion of peace? *DELETED* [Re: MAIA]
    #1430923 - 04/05/03 09:52 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Post deleted by Mr_Mushrooms


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Anonymous

Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: arabmobster]
    #1430927 - 04/05/03 09:59 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Please read the "Be Nice" policy, A-rab.

Thanks.

I really don't like to edit.


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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
Son of Uncle Meat
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/06/02
Posts: 19,058
Loc: Toronto Canada
Re: Islam, religion of peace? [Re: ]
    #1430929 - 04/05/03 10:00 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Hope that helps.  :smile:

It does Mr. Shrooms, thanks for taking the time to answer my question :wink: 


--------------------
"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"



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