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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Existentialism, Philosophy, and Religion Just Crutches for the Weak?
    #3395075 - 11/22/04 12:18 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Reading this board has really influenced my thought. Lately I have wondered if all this nonsense about religion and philosophy is just a crutch for the weak. I come from a working class, blue collar background. I never knew of my father or grandfather questioning the meaning of existance. They took it day by day and acted as if the meaning of their lives was self evident. I never saw them depressed. They were usually very happy. Both cared little for religion. My father is more concerned with the projects he is working on (he likes to build things and is VERY good) than the meaning of life...he could care less about that. I, on the other hand, am "well educated" (been to college...whoopee...so what), and here I am concerned with all of this philosophocal bullshit. I have encountered things in my life that pushed me towards spiritualism, but my father just accepts things as they are and go on happily possessing a strength I seem to lack. Is all this philosophy just a crutch to cover the fear? Would we be better served by engaging ourselves further into our lives and quit worring about the end of it?


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


Edited by Huehuecoyotl (11/22/04 12:28 AM)


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Offlineoceansize
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Re: Existentialism, Philosophy, and Religion Just Crutches for the Weak? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3395126 - 11/22/04 12:33 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

If there is a reason you were drawn to spirituality, as in, you needed it as a crutch, do you think it matters? If you pull your own crutch away, chances are, you will fall over.

That isn't my thoughts on the subject, however. Perhaps you should consider a genetic basis for belief?

Wait, no, when all is said and done, is a life in which you need the spiritual element any less noble than that of your father?

I don't know.


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"And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh." - Friedrich Nietzsche



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InvisibleFucknuckle
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Re: Existentialism, Philosophy, and Religion Just Crutches for the Weak? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3395144 - 11/22/04 12:39 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Life is a series of partnerships and no one get thru life solely on their own two feet. There are no crutches, only strong partnerships and weak ones.

Who or what a person partners to, is his choice.



--------------------
What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Existentialism, Philosophy, and Religion Just Crutches for the Weak? [Re: oceansize]
    #3395149 - 11/22/04 12:40 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I am starting to think that the most spiritual approach to life is to engage it on a basic level without thought given to it's meaning. My dog has never had an existential crisis and he is engaged so completely that the spiritual and physical are one. His true path is to concern himself with being a good dog. Would his example not be a fine one to follow?


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleFucknuckle
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Re: Existentialism, Philosophy, and Religion Just Crutches for the Weak? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3395155 - 11/22/04 12:42 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Yeah but you are not a Dog

Can I breath water just because I think fish have it made ?

Good Idea but it won't work

While a dog may have life by the balls. A dog does not spend his time pondering death. You are human and will think of your death and the after life until you find the truth thru death.

Fact of being human.


--------------------
What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Existentialism, Philosophy, and Religion Just Crutches for the Weak? [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3395167 - 11/22/04 12:45 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I disagree. Many people seem to function on this level as well...many healthy people. For example, if I told my father about some philosophical notion he would dismiss it as impractical to worry about and say "get on with your life."


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Existentialism, Philosophy, and Religion Just Crutches for the Weak? [Re: oceansize]
    #3395174 - 11/22/04 12:47 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Maybe if I quit worrying about the crutch it will cease to be needed. Maybe thinking about it creates the need.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Offlineteen
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Re: Existentialism, Philosophy, and Religion Just Crutches for the Weak? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3395175 - 11/22/04 01:35 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I think it is the point to figure this all out, most people are corrupted into having too much else to do.


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Don't give me that load of bunk~!


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Existentialism, Philosophy, and Religion Just Crutches for the Weak? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3395225 - 11/22/04 07:55 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

A dog's purpose is to be the best dog [s]he can be, and that might include having a Human Master/Mistress with whom to interact. A good Human being will benefit the dog through a loving relationship. A bad Human being who is cruel will not enhance the dog but cause it to regress to a level even less than it might be as a wild animal - demonic almost.

We are more than mammals, and I for one require a more-than-Human Master to bring me up from merely mammalian existence. Conversely, evil Humans have their evil master as well. They are guided by the 'demonic' - the exaggerated desire-based egos that take from others without conscience. Take the categories of good and evil as metaphor if you wish, but the former is expansive and life-enhancing the latter is contractive, entropic and destructive.

BTW, spirituality is not a coin-toss choice, it results from experiences of pure faith or gnosis that forever changes one's life. In liew of personal experience, pure faith assumes the Truth of spoken by certain individuals. One just stops asking if Jesus were mad, or a liar and accepts His word in childlike simplicity (to give One example). Life then, becomes a spiritual experiment in Truth.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleMOTH
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Re: Existentialism, Philosophy, and Religion Just Crutches for the Weak? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3395254 - 11/22/04 11:40 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
I am starting to think that the most spiritual approach to life is to engage it on a basic level without thought given to it's meaning.




Like just 'be here now," is that what you mean? I think I'm understanding what you are saying, because it seems that once you start to put a lot of thought into "your religious/spiritual path" it's easy for the ego to be involved.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Existentialism, Philosophy, and Religion Just Crutches for the Weak? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3395266 - 11/22/04 11:58 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Hue,

How come you got to ride on JC for metaphorical saying some people cling to the side of the shore instead of going with the flow, calling him egotistic to say that and then you move straight to a thread saying spiritual and religious types use it for a crutch.

Whats the difference? LOL LOL LOL


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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OfflineTag_Number
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Re: Existentialism, Philosophy, and Religion Just Crutches for the Weak? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3395306 - 11/22/04 12:46 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Its a crutch that you would say its weak itself.

Thus you are the crutched.


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: Existentialism, Philosophy, and Religion Just Crutches for the Weak? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3395339 - 11/22/04 09:40 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

indeed i feel you on this.

I've seen many people die out of cancer within the past couple of years, and I see many similarities.

most of these people lived very fulfilling happy lives, but as soon as they can see that a death sentence is near, they turn to philisophical modes of thought. some have come up and asked me about life and how to deal with something like this. msot of the time I don't have an answer for them, but it makes me wonder why many people only think about the awe in existence when death is upon them.

is there any crutch at all in consciously appreciating everything around you through asking and pondering about existence in general?

if you are asking these questions about life now without death being consciously in your mind (as in having cancer and you only have a year to live), then is that a crutch..or are you just thinking for yourself?


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: Existentialism, Philosophy, and Religion Just Crutches for the Weak? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3395345 - 11/22/04 09:42 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

For my reply to this subject matter, see my response to our other recent co-posting location.


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Offlinezahudulallah
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Re: Existentialism, Philosophy, and Religion Just Crutches for the Weak? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3395435 - 11/22/04 09:59 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I originally abandoned atheism during my conversion era to Sunni Islam by reasoning that purpose went beyond simple rational, however this was a more subconscious realization at the time.. I was then, rationalizing my faith in God, which had various road blocks in simple rationality that I ignored because my relationship with God was intense and real. Those road were called "the whispers of Shaitan" by those around me. Gnosis brought me to realize the transrational nature of faith.. individual salvation instead of a massive global effort that consisted of the saved and unsaved. Theology became molded into symbols. Laws and dot and tittles merged into a sole rule of love. Blind childlike faith became experiential knowledge. It was awesome. To this day I'm convinced I no longer have the free will to return to the materialism I once had. Gnostic experiences deeply burned into my soul as reminders.. and I get reminded each time I dose. The mystery only deepens.. no end in sight at all.. what will the fullness of God be like? Is there an unspoken communication between the lovers of God in the pleroma? All I know is that I am a spark of god stuff, wrapped in flesh, trapped in this lonely isolate hell hole that is life. The only way out is Love. The signature of creation is beautiful, but human life does have alot of strings attached.. last week I was mugged and when I didn't have any money, I got a left hook in the face instead. A few years back, I would have interpretted this as a test from God, but in reality it was just a random event. Sometimes I wish everything was planned out, but in the transpersonal, transrational reality of gnosis one realizes that every moment that stacks on the previous moment is itself a learning process for God himself. I talked about this once with a Shia friend and she accused me of downplaying the omniscience of God. At the tip of time God is still looking foward, learning about Himself through the mirror that is human consciousness. Would this at all be existential, in some way? Heh, sometimes I wonder if God even knows how I'm going to die.. :wink:

Peace


--------------------


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Existentialism, Philosophy, and Religion Just Crutches for the Weak? [Re: MOTH]
    #3395624 - 11/22/04 10:36 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

You are very correct. Our spiritual essence should be inherant so intellectualising it is possibly only an exercise in a stress inducing, useless activity.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Existentialism, Philosophy, and Religion Just Crutches for the Weak? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3395628 - 11/22/04 10:38 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

JC was implying that others, lacking his knowledge, were lost in futility. I am not attacking him...just a reminder that there is more than one "WAY". Not all humans are lost in the rat race of misery...many are quite happy.It is not only the chosen few who are. My moving to this thread was because this thought hit me forcefully while I was replying to his post. I am NOT saying that all spiritual thought is a useless crutch, and I am playing devil's advocate somewhat as well, BUT there seems to be something to my premise too. Why do some people funbction happily and efficiently...and even die happy with no concious spiritual cares at all?


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OfflineMcKennaFan200
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Re: Existentialism, Philosophy, and Religion Just Crutches for the Weak? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3395671 - 11/22/04 10:48 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

What makes philosophy "exciting" is thinking with other people. Bouncing ideas off of one another. The thought of understanding something (or trying to at least) that other people have tried to understand is what makes me so enthralled by it. Sometimes I think "Is this a pointless activity? Are there things that no man can ever know?". It's the unknowingness that keeps the fire burning for me.


--------------------


"It seemed to me culture is a shabby lie. Or at least this culture is a shabby lie. If you work like a dog, you get 260 channels of bad television and a German automobile. What kind of perfection is that?"-McKenna


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Existentialism, Philosophy, and Religion Just Crutches for the Weak? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3395692 - 11/22/04 10:51 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I was not using the dog allegory to imply that I wanted a domineering master...my dog...so tranquil and focused...often seems to be my master spiritually. Seriously, though, I could have used a deer or a squirrel more accurately, but I have observed my dog's behavior and I know him well so I used him as an example...if anything I strive to be my own master. You are right about having a choice...I feel as if I was given no choice in my spiritual belief. I came to it as a iron filing to a magnet. My experience molded me, but this also makes me sometimes question it's veracity.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Existentialism, Philosophy, and Religion Just Crutches for the Weak? [Re: McKennaFan200]
    #3395731 - 11/22/04 10:57 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I agree talking philosophy is a fun, but sometimes depressing and distressing, pasttime. I sometimes end up with things to worry about that I never knew existed before someone told me...then there goes another paradigm. I just get tired of cleaning house so much...I would sometimes prefer to live in amongst the clutter...then here comes a new idea......AHHHH!!!!


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