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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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science, religion, and philosophy
    #3684416 - 01/26/05 07:35 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I am a strong proponent of science and the scientific method. I am also a strong supporter of religion, and even though I have expressed these views in the past I perceive that I have been lumped into a group, here on the forum, called "the skeptics". There is a serious fallacy in creating such imaginary definitions. By defining one as a skeptic, to a community, one attempts unconsciously (or consciously) to set limits on the personality being defined as to how it behaves in said community. The same can be said of the definition that exists of the "believers". Laying out either definition in a community is illogical and unfair. I have, I admit, been guilty of this myself. Many people here on both sides of the science/religion debate tend to also apply these definitions to themselves therefore limiting their freedom to express themselves or change their minds. My thesis here is to demonstrate that such definitions can be transcended on a personal and community level. I also will propose that while religion and science should remain separate, for the mutual benefit of both, that they can be reconciled. Those who have read my posts may recall that I claim to have studied shamanism a great deal, and that I conceive of a thing called "the spirit"; a term that I use to describe a combination of God and the spiritual essence of man and nature. On the other hand I believe that when the scientific community has uncovered knowledge, that holds up under scrutiny, that it should not be rejected because it conflicts with our personal philosophies, which, by the way, should be dynamic...not static. This is the cause of many fallacious theories. A few examples would be (I am going to step on some toes here) creationism and aspects (not all) of the debate about alien life, as well as the "Mayan Calendar/2012" phenomenon. I include these examples because they currently ignore crucial bits of scientific knowledge while selectively using other bits of scientific knowledge as their basis, creating major inconsistencies in these concepts. Do I think that all religious and paranormal ideas should be cast out because science has not (and cannot) proved their existence? By my way of thinking this is a little like throwing out the baby with the bath water. The goals of science and religion are quite separate. Science seeks to understand how nature behaves. Religion and philosophy tend to want to address the question of the purpose of nature. To live devoid of any spiritual influence, by my thinking, makes one harsh and negatively inclined with a great rigidity of thought. A good example of this, often cited by Markosthegnostic, is that of the famous atheist Madeline Murray O'Hare. She was a bitter person who portrayed atheism with Nazi like fervor and was eventually murdered by her own family.
Albert Einstein once replied to a young girl's question about the usefulness of prayer with:

"Every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe -- a spirit vastly superior to that of man, and one in the face of which we with our modest powers must feel humble."

A quote from Stephen Hawking:

"You don't need to appeal to God to set the initial conditions for the universe, but that doesn't prove that there is no God - only that he acts through the laws of physics."

Adopting the opposite view of religion over science often leads one to become an unquestioning moron blind in the face of truth. One need only to do a quick search of the net to find these people who in their search for spiritual truth have fallen off the edge of reality and embraced lunacy. The promotion of mass ignorance in this way does not advance our society, and does indelible harm by confusing people?s notions about the relationship between science and religion. True science becomes buried, in the collective conscious of our society, under the infertile soil of pseudoscience.
My secondary purpose here is to dispel the notion that myself, or any of us, can be defined. Like the Universe that surrounds us we are a mystery...to ourselves and others. Creating categories and generalizations to group objects is human nature, but humans are not objects alike in every way. Our varieties are endless and defining our nature just succeeds in defining our capabilities so as to limit them. Many of us feel that standing astraddle the science/religion fence is so uncomfortable that we must reside on one side or the other. I tell you that there is no fence...but there is a middle way.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Offlineoceansize
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Registered: 08/31/04
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Re: science, religion, and philosophy [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3685436 - 01/26/05 10:28 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

"Rules and models destroy genius and art." - William Hazlit

Sometimes I get the feeling this is the mentality or ideal of those who plant themselves on oneside or the other of the science--religion line. I disagree entirely, and I think that genius or "spirit" arising out of the confines of science or philosophy are greatly enobled through transcendance. I am much more wowed by an amazing theory that arises out of accepted science than one that shuns science. The same can be said for common philosophies.

For example, anyone want to bet I can't give an excellent and probable argument for reincarnation fully in based in accepted science?


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"And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh." - Friedrich Nietzsche



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OfflineZekebomb
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Registered: 08/24/03
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Re: science, religion, and philosophy [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3686635 - 01/27/05 01:23 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

True science becomes buried, in the collective conscious of our society, under the infertile soil of pseudoscience.

ok, science vs pseudoscience, right

I tell you that there is no fence

ok, no fence... er, wait...

but I see what you mean. good point, too, about religion and science having different goals. although, if religions asks Why and science asks How, then once science has figured everything out and knows How everything works, then religion steps in with Why, which is a real smack in science's face. seperating the 'goals' of religion and science into How and Why (sort of like putting a fence between them...) means that science is sort of 'under' religion---which I think isn't your point. correct me if I'm wrong.

(also, you might try separating big paragraphs into smaller, managable chunks for those of us with ADHD)

...and oceansize, I bet you a shiny peanut you can't give an excellent and probable argument for reincarnation fully in based in accepted science


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Offline13eetleJuice
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Re: science, religion, and philosophy [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3686733 - 01/27/05 01:40 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I'm not of any particular faith or religion. I'm also not atheistic either. I simply choose not to make a choice as to whether or not there's a supernatural being(s) either among us or existing somewhere outside the realm of the physical world.

Having this purely neutral standpoint, I don't see where (most) religion, buts heads with science. In fact many of the scientific authorities I have personally encountered in my lifetime were highly religeous themselves. I just don't see the big argument. This reminds me of a bumber sticker I once saw on the back of some soccer mom's van as it sat in front of me at a stoplight. The bumper sticker read "I support the Big Bang Theory. God spoke, and BANG it happened".

While I haven't personally accepted the notion that there is a god, and at the same time haven't ruled out the possibility, this bumper sticker serves as a perfect example of how I believe science and religion can both exist without one contradicting the other. I suppose it's all in the way you look at it.


--------------------


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Offlineoceansize
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Registered: 08/31/04
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Re: science, religion, and philosophy [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3687525 - 01/27/05 07:08 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

"...and oceansize, I bet you a shiny peanut you can't give an excellent and probable argument for reincarnation fully in based in accepted science  "

Here I go... Carl Sagan first proposed this I believe.  If the universe is foudn to have enough gray matter and therefore mass, it will collapse back unto itself after this period of expansion.  This model is called the oscillating universe.

If it does so, and collapses back into a singularity, which is almost certainly what would happen under the Big Bang theory, there is reason to suggest it will continue to do ad infinitum. 

In an infinite number of universes, an infinite number of things arise, which includes the autocatalytic set of molecules known as YOU.  Therefore, there is reason to believe you will live again, from a fully materialistic standpoint
  :crazy2:


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"And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh." - Friedrich Nietzsche



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Offlineblaze2
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Re: science, religion, and philosophy [Re: oceansize]
    #3687652 - 01/27/05 09:13 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

First off that was one of the most intelligent things ive seen in here Huehuecoyotl. Science is fact everything else is possible(although it may be improbroble.). I especially liked your point about religion being static.


Now ill do you one better oceansize. I cant place my theory entirely in scientific fact but its based on some scientific theorys.

Okay there is a theory that our brains work on a quantum level, and that is the reason we are conscious as opposed to an ape for instance. In otherwords "higher" level thinking comes from this quantum ability. This is unsubstantiated, but it is not that extrodinary of a remark. If the brain did operate on the quantum level they would be exponitionaly more powerfull, this could be used to explain how our brain, which is really just a bunch of on and off switches like the computer you are currently sitting in front of, can think. So far no one has created true artifical intelligence using existing computer equipment.

Suppose this quantum level activity IS counsciousness. and when we die it leaves our brains. Suppose that when it leaves it "dissolves" into the quantum world or the fabric of space time whatever you want to call it. Remember this is your essance. If it did "dissolve" why couldnt you accidently absorb someone else's essance when your own brain began to gain counsciousness, and began operating on the quantum level.

Ill go even further, say that the more active the brain is when you die the longer the "essance" takes to "dissolve". So when people die peacefully it would be relatively quick, but if say they died in terror...it lingers and you get ghosts or just maybe a "creepy vibe" when you walk into a house that had a murder.

Of course if this was true it would bring up the question of wheather or not this quantum activity is a "soul", and you know what? I dont know. If everything i just said was proven true i would seriously consider some things.

peace

blaze2


--------------------
"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineMegaloMello
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Registered: 01/20/05
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Re: science, religion, and philosophy [Re: blaze2]
    #3688517 - 01/27/05 02:56 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

blaze2 said:

Suppose this quantum level activity IS counsciousness. and when we die it leaves our brains. Suppose that when it leaves it "dissolves" into the quantum world or the fabric of space time whatever you want to call it. Remember this is your essance. If it did "dissolve" why couldnt you accidently absorb someone else's essance when your own brain began to gain counsciousness, and began operating on the quantum level.

Ill go even further, say that the more active the brain is when you die the longer the "essance" takes to "dissolve". So when people die peacefully it would be relatively quick, but if say they died in terror...it lingers and you get ghosts or just maybe a "creepy vibe" when you walk into a house that had a murder.

Of course if this was true it would bring up the question of wheather or not this quantum activity is a "soul", and you know what? I dont know. If everything i just said was proven true i would seriously consider some things.





What would you define a "soul" to be? To me it seems the soul IS consciousness which would go to say that the quantum level activity is indeed the soul in action.

You knoww...I read something about how scientists in the early 20th century were trying to prove/disprove the existance of the astral body. And I believe what they did was measure the weight of a body before death/oobe and then afterwards, and they found the body would consistently lose about .2 ounces, which appears to suggest some physical manifestation of the mind/consciousness. (Details may be a bit skewed...I read that like 6 months ago..)


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ride...


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: science, religion, and philosophy [Re: MegaloMello]
    #3688568 - 01/27/05 03:13 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I am not sure what a soul is - nor why buddhism is said not to have soul in it's philosophy. I may just not have arrived at the need to ask. yet.

a huge connection to religion has historically been made with politics.

the need of a pusishable and rewardable soul is clearly part of any political power movement that owns the hearts and minds of its people.

maybe religion is the science of politics. a form of animal husbandry with humans.

for me religion has been art and music and culture.
I have worn my agnostic life preserver to all gatherings of cloth to save sinking into teh oceans of beliefs.

that said I do like the entheogen idea of the dancing universe, the catharsis of the "religious experience" and the sense of oneness.


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Offlineblaze2
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Re: science, religion, and philosophy [Re: MegaloMello]
    #3688572 - 01/27/05 03:14 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Ive heard about that, that movie 13 grams or whatever was about that. People piss and shit when they die isnt it possible they dont always collect all of that and get to weigh it in the after death measurements?

a soul is a decidedly religious view. Im agnostic,so i dont see myself as having a soul, i do see myself as having consciousness. When i think of a soul i think of the "spirit" of a person, its whatever the devil wants to steal from you you know. but if all that stuff was proven true i would really consider it. because its more than just conciousness, it would be consciousness disembodied from the person. That sounds decidedly more "soul" like to me.

blaze2


--------------------
"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineMegaloMello
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Registered: 01/20/05
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Re: science, religion, and philosophy [Re: blaze2]
    #3689244 - 01/27/05 05:57 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

blaze2 said:
a soul is a decidedly religious view.  Im agnostic,so i dont see myself as having a soul, i do see myself as having consciousness.  When i think of a soul i think of the "spirit" of a person, its whatever the devil wants to steal from you you know.  but if all that stuff was proven true i would really consider it.  because its more than just conciousness, it would be consciousness disembodied from the person.  That sounds decidedly more "soul" like to me. 

blaze2




decidedly a religious view? seems more than religious... more like a philosophical quandry. Why is it the soul must be separate from the body for it to exist? And if it does not exist until death, from where would the soul rise up into existence?

My inkling (for it's of course impossible to really know) is that the whole world is manifested through consciousness of widely varying degrees. The more consciousness something has, the more reality it is actually allowed to perceive and manipulate.

:heart:


--------------------
ride...


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OfflineZekebomb
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Re: science, religion, and philosophy [Re: MegaloMello]
    #3689587 - 01/27/05 07:11 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

blaze2 said:

Science is fact everything else is possible(although it may be improbroble.)

People piss and shit when they die isnt it possible they dont always collect all of that and get to weigh it in the after death measurements?


it's possible they don't always collect dead people's 13 grams of piss and shit, but is it possible that they always don't collect it? ...I guess it is possible. but it sure ain't science


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Offlineoceansize
fuckin' right.

Registered: 08/31/04
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Re: science, religion, and philosophy [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3690106 - 01/27/05 08:46 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I have a problem with the brain being considered of 'higher consciousness.'

A smart bonobo or chimp is just as intellegent as a stupid, but not too bellow average intellegence human. It seems as though our consciousness is not totally different from an animals although a bit more advanced- perhaps seperated with the coexistance with vocalization and an opposable thumb.


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"And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh." - Friedrich Nietzsche



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Offlineincubaby_421
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Re: science, religion, and philosophy [Re: oceansize]
    #3691719 - 01/28/05 01:23 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

i am not going to read past the first post becuase when i am so biased about religion based topics that i can find ignorance in even stephen hawinkings words, it is time for me to find another thread.


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"yet the more i dig, the more i consume, the more i unfold... the less protected i feel.
i am the spit on the hair of the son of an electron, swimming around the nucleus of a cell inside the sperm of a killer bee, and my purpose is as nebulous as why weve been bestowed with the capacity to give a shit" Brandon Boyd



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Offlineoceansize
fuckin' right.

Registered: 08/31/04
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Re: science, religion, and philosophy [Re: incubaby_421]
    #3692488 - 01/28/05 09:02 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Incu don't confuse science with some of those who are proponents of it.

Hawking although an atheist says he allows for a deity in certain parts of science if one was so inclined.


--------------------
"And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh." - Friedrich Nietzsche



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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: science, religion, and philosophy [Re: oceansize]
    #3692573 - 01/28/05 09:47 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

oceansize said:
I have a problem with the brain being considered of 'higher consciousness.'

A smart bonobo or chimp is just as intellegent as a stupid, but not too bellow average intellegence human. It seems as though our consciousness is not totally different from an animals although a bit more advanced- perhaps seperated with the coexistance with vocalization and an opposable thumb.




our portfolio is a bit wider than a chimp's but not much different in essence.
more candy
more variety
more chances to be wrong
more joy and longer lingering joy when we do it well.

(it is likely that the range of humans even within families presents a variety of portfolio potentials, some are waaaay wider, some are waaay more limited, compassion is call for on that note)


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OfflineDroz
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Re: science, religion, and philosophy [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3692924 - 01/28/05 12:05 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I see word as the capability to gain power over others, it's like this. I'll be the alpha male and control these people. I'll be the omega child and see what this bungnoid of an alpha male wants to do. The push and the pull of the universe, spiritual power. If we realize we can exist without words, we sill surely get a lot farther. The use of telekinetic powers to exchange thought. The use of psychokinetic powers to fight over control.

Vibrational Frequencies.


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