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OfflineUnenlightenedOne
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Eastern philosophies...
    #3792493 - 02/17/05 11:03 AM (12 years, 6 days ago)

Why does there seem to be such an obsession here with eastern philosophies?

Seek out your ancestors instead of another person's ancestors.

Your own heritage will be much more relevantto your culture/way of life than another heritage which was developed under another culture and way of life.In "translation" much meaning is lost.

One should not really intrude upon another's heritage.It is akin to stealing and many people feel that way.Often times it is also not respected properly and taken lightly.

Does anyone elsehave an opinion about this?


--------------------
Do not desire to reach a high level.Rather work without thought of reward to iron out flaws and impurities in one's self for the sake of one's self.When one has done this one needs not to desire anymore. http://www.lifeforceonlinestore.com/yc/


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Offlinestefan
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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3792524 - 02/17/05 11:13 AM (12 years, 6 days ago)

maybe because we all share (the most of us) the same culture, to a certain extent


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: stefan]
    #3792622 - 02/17/05 11:40 AM (12 years, 6 days ago)

even the ancestors travelled to the rising sun


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OfflineJCoke
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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3792918 - 02/17/05 12:49 PM (12 years, 6 days ago)

I think it's good to study/look into other religions and traditions of every culture, of every time...I like watching shows on travel channel about tribes in africa or south america, I always get interested in there lives, completely sucked into it, that's some good stuff right there. :thumbup:

still look at your families ancestors too of course.

hell, your grandparents are probally smarter than you think, full of stories, you should listen sometime, even if they are extremely exaggerated, and go on for hours, first hand accounts are good, me thinks.


--------------------
hello, your name is life on earth
------------------------------------

"I traveled a long way seeking God, but when I finally gave up and turned back, there He was, within me! O Lalli! Now why do you wander like a beggar? Make some effort, and He will grant you a vision of Himself in the form of bliss in your heart." -the saint of the Kashmir Shaivism tradition: Lalli.


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OfflineUnenlightenedOne
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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: JCoke]
    #3792935 - 02/17/05 12:52 PM (12 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

I think it's good to study/look into other religions and traditions of every culture, of every time...I like watching shows on travel channel about tribes in africa or south america, I always get interested in there lives, completely sucked into it, that's some good stuff right there.





It fascinates me as well.I agree that one should always learn about other cultures.However, what I dont agree with is cultural theft.


--------------------
Do not desire to reach a high level.Rather work without thought of reward to iron out flaws and impurities in one's self for the sake of one's self.When one has done this one needs not to desire anymore. http://www.lifeforceonlinestore.com/yc/


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3793001 - 02/17/05 01:06 PM (12 years, 6 days ago)

we should prosecute


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OfflineJCoke
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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3793022 - 02/17/05 01:11 PM (12 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

UnenlightenedOne said:
Quote:

I think it's good to study/look into other religions and traditions of every culture, of every time...I like watching shows on travel channel about tribes in africa or south america, I always get interested in there lives, completely sucked into it, that's some good stuff right there.





It fascinates me as well.I agree that one should always learn about other cultures.However, what I dont agree with is cultural theft.




it's not theft, theft is taking away from someone else, so you have what they once had, with out there permission of course.

why do you care what other people do?

is it wrong to find the answers from another culture?

is there a culture on earth who gets angry if people believe/follow them?

would you get angry if someone agrees with your ideas?


--------------------
hello, your name is life on earth
------------------------------------

"I traveled a long way seeking God, but when I finally gave up and turned back, there He was, within me! O Lalli! Now why do you wander like a beggar? Make some effort, and He will grant you a vision of Himself in the form of bliss in your heart." -the saint of the Kashmir Shaivism tradition: Lalli.


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OfflineWildRunner
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Registered: 02/13/05
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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3793027 - 02/17/05 01:12 PM (12 years, 6 days ago)

Perhaps they look towards other religions because they cant find what they're looking for in their own?

Indeed this is often how real cultural diverstiy is lost.

Personally, I agree, that people should spend time researching their roots. Its really easy to forget where one comes from. But on the other hand, take a look at the north american natives. People are fascinated by their rich history and background. The reason it is so strong, is because they havent forgotten where they come from.


--------------------
If you dont know where you're going, any road will take you there.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: WildRunner]
    #3793049 - 02/17/05 01:16 PM (12 years, 6 days ago)

what a twist - I like it!
an official insistance that people be different from eachother
a state that douses all book fires.


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OfflineMAGnum
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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: WildRunner]
    #3793088 - 02/17/05 01:26 PM (12 years, 5 days ago)

I say learn about all cultures and things and exstact the truth by faith through love (expreriance through exsistance). If you can, learn a little about every language. Learn about every religion and supersticion. Have fun the whole time and explore the reality we have been given with Love.


--------------------
Agent 727
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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: UnenlightenedOne] * 1
    #3793777 - 02/17/05 04:44 PM (12 years, 5 days ago)

Well, C.G. Jung was of your opinion that Westerners need to develop their own yoga forms and such. Lotus blossoms do not grow well in the soil and water of the Western psyche, but Indian Yogas of both Hindu and Buddhist forms seem to make a lot of practical sense in the Light of psychedelic experience.

Westerners who use psychedelics seem to fall into the Fourth Way school of Gurdjieff (as pointed out on www.thefane.org) but I have also enjoined the Way of the Monk to a certain extent and moreso the Way of the Yogi (particularly Hatha Yoga) to direct the influx of higher energies. I can't imagine using a psychedelic without doing a few basic asanas. Pranayama used to follow, but I haven't done such intensive 'hyperpranic' experimentation in many years. I now focus on being here and now after becoming energized.

Interestingly, the word 'energy' seems to separate not only the Indian and perhaps Taoist Yogas from the West, but also separates Eastern Christianity from the Western forms. Eastern Christianity speaks a great deal about GOD's 'Uncreated Energies,' and how they suffuse the human being, leading to 'Theosis' - the process of a human being transformed into GOD essentially. I have posted in the past on a hidden relationship between Eastern Christianity, the Eleusinian Mysteries which used a psychedelic and its possible use by Socrates and Plato (maybe why Socrates was put to death even). Since Eastern Christianity is heavily influenced by Plato, it is conceivable that Platonic and Neoplatonic philosophy has the psychedelic 'Kykeon' of the Eleusinian Mysteries at its very orgins. The form of ergot that grew on the form of barley that some scholars believe made up the 'Kykeon,' actually produces tiny purple mushrooms when the grain falls to the Earth. That is why I have the mushroomic and grain cross as an avatar - a real Eastern Christian symbol obtained from a supply house. It emblazons our Jewish-Christian Gnostic altar at home.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3793993 - 02/17/05 05:34 PM (12 years, 5 days ago)

Seek out my ancestors? What could I possibly learn from them that I can't from any other human being?

Why the stress on heritage and 'uniqueness' of cultures? All seperations between humans (asides from maybe the male-female dialysis) are entirely fabricated in my opinion. We all have the same building blocks, the same basic psyche, the same urges and desires.
So why ask a dead man what a living person can answer much more quickly and demonstrate to boot?

Edit-in: stealing is a bit harsh. Is any adopted idea a stolen idea?


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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


Edited by Alan Stone (02/17/05 05:36 PM)


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OfflineUnenlightenedOne
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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: MarkostheGnostic] * 1
    #3794157 - 02/17/05 06:07 PM (12 years, 5 days ago)

Im more refering to the wannabe types who are often heavily romaticized with other cultures and even though they have no heritage in that culture they seek to become part of it and never respect it nor take it seriously enough.In this disposable era we live in people adopt and shed religions often and tend to know little about what they are involving themselves in.Often times books at bookstores catering to these types only make it worse and spread misinformation and disrespect for these cultures and religions.It is not simply a belief but a way of life for these cultures.The new age movement is largely to blame as well as media like Tv and newspapers.

Mimicking rituals,ceremonies and similar things is a mockery to these cultures.Many feel these people are taking their culture and cheapening it and treating like a commodity to be bought and sold to entertain at a whim.

Whats worse is to cater to the wannabe's corporations exploit other cultures in a worse manner just to turn a quick profit.

"Sharing" in a culture that likely doesnt want others to "share" in their cultural identity is cultural theft.

Taking one's cultural identity and turning it into your own is selfish and highly disrespectful.Most of the people who tend to spread cultural theft and make it popular to other cultures are often the ones stealing the culture as well and modifying it to fit a specific market and make a few bucks.

I'd be absolutely horrified if someone came in and took my beliefs and my culture and started claiming to be part ofmy culture and didnt take it serious and knew little accurate information about my culture.Id be even more horrified if my religious items became nothing more than decor and novelty.Its very disrespectful.Its also a very bad image projected onto the culture when a bunch of people who know little about a culture go around claiming to part of it and spread misinformation and doubt.It especially horrifies me when people claim to be enlightened or a shaman when they have no basis for such a claim other than wanting to be enlightened or a shaman and really have no clue as to the nature of such things and what they really are.

While learning about other cultures is very good,it is better yet to leave those cultures to those who built them.

It'd be like someone just coming and stealing what you and your ancestors have built through hard work for thousands of years and claiming it as their own even though they have done nothing themselves to contribute to it.

There is a difference between respecting cultures and stealing them and you cannot take another culture while respecting it.Please do not steal another culture and claim it as your own.Ok people?


--------------------
Do not desire to reach a high level.Rather work without thought of reward to iron out flaws and impurities in one's self for the sake of one's self.When one has done this one needs not to desire anymore. http://www.lifeforceonlinestore.com/yc/


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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3794204 - 02/17/05 06:17 PM (12 years, 5 days ago)

Honestly, I don't identify that strongly with my ancestors or my culture. Sure, my culture is part of who I am, but a larger part of who I am is defined by those I've crossed paths with, the body I inhabit and the things I do.

There is no set, universal definition of "culture". Hence, it's impossible to determine the in-crowd. Therefore, the only proof that you or I belong to a culture is anecdotal: you say you belong to a culture. No one can refute that claim by any other means than playing the "Are not"-"Am too" game.

I really don't think in terms of national borders, hereditary lifestyle or set definitions of anything related to the human experience TM. Those are all imaginary.


--------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


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OfflineUnenlightenedOne
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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: Alan Stone]
    #3794263 - 02/17/05 06:27 PM (12 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Why the stress on heritage and 'uniqueness' of cultures?




If no one carries on their traditions from their ancestors they will disappear forever.Without seperation of cultures with distinctlines everythign will melt into a meaningless blob of mixed culture that has no real significance.Also you should respect other's sacred things.It is not something you can just toy with.

Quote:

All seperations between humans (asides from maybe the male-female dialysis) are entirely fabricated in my opinion. We all have the same building blocks, the same basic psyche, the same urges and desires.





Urges and desires vary with culture.In american culture we often desire technology,money,etc.Native tribesmen in say africa, they want none of these things.They desire very different things.While basics may be the same like food, they even eat different food than we do in many aspects.Learning how to cook native food isnt going to help you so why would learning native customs and medicines and etc help you in spirituality when they have no cultural meaning or basis.

I mean what if I dressed like you and acted like you and then I went around spreading misinformation/rumors/acting silly/etc and made you look bad.I cant imagine you would be pleased at all.

Quote:

So why ask a dead man what a living person can answer much more quickly and demonstrate to boot?



Your ancestors can teach you traditions and culture which has been carried on for thousands of years by only your people.They can teach you to find your way.They can show you something real.They can teach youmany things but what you learn from them is your choice.

I mean sure no one HAS to seek their heritage but they'd be missing out on rich cultural history and its somethign to be very proud of.Our ancestors built each of our cultures and carried them on for thousands of years.They taught us how to live,how to survive,how to heal,etc.Without the past we would never progress.

Quote:

stealing is a bit harsh. Is any adopted idea a stolen idea?




If its not yours to take or "adopt" to being with then yes.

What would you do if your parents taught you nothing and you had to figure out what was good to eat on your own and what was good for healing what and etc.Many of us would die and we'd be lucky to escape extinction.


--------------------
Do not desire to reach a high level.Rather work without thought of reward to iron out flaws and impurities in one's self for the sake of one's self.When one has done this one needs not to desire anymore. http://www.lifeforceonlinestore.com/yc/


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OfflineUnenlightenedOne
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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: Alan Stone]
    #3794317 - 02/17/05 06:37 PM (12 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

There is no set, universal definition of "culture". Hence, it's impossible to determine the in-crowd. Therefore, the only proof that you or I belong to a culture is anecdotal: you say you belong to a culture. .





If a white person says "I am a tribesman of the masai tribe in africa."Are you really going to believe them?There are definitely cultural boundaries and definitions.I mean sure there are always going to be liars but most liars dont take enough time to learn enough facts and culture to be mistaken for that culture.

Quote:

Hence, it's impossible to determine the in-crowd.




How so?

Quote:

No one can refute that claim by any other means than playing the "Are not"-"Am too" game




People can trace their lineage to find out.I honestly dont know anyone who even claims to be a heritage their not.Rather I see lots of " X culture is cool.Im going to convert and become part of X culture." And then you see unknowledgeable people running around with rip-offs of sacred items and they dont even know the meaning behind them.

Quote:

I really don't think in terms of national borders, hereditary lifestyle or set definitions of anything related to the human experience TM. Those are all imaginary.





Thats your opinion.Try telling that to various cultural groups and see how they respond.


--------------------
Do not desire to reach a high level.Rather work without thought of reward to iron out flaws and impurities in one's self for the sake of one's self.When one has done this one needs not to desire anymore. http://www.lifeforceonlinestore.com/yc/


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OfflineShroomDoom
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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3795075 - 02/17/05 09:45 PM (12 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

UnenlightenedOne said:
Why does there seem to be such an obsession here with eastern philosophies?

Seek out your ancestors instead of another person's ancestors.

Your own heritage will be much more relevantto your culture/way of life than another heritage which was developed under another culture and way of life.In "translation" much meaning is lost.

One should not really intrude upon another's heritage.It is akin to stealing and many people feel that way.Often times it is also not respected properly and taken lightly.

Does anyone elsehave an opinion about this?




My Good Karma brought me to the Darhma. hey that ryhmes! anyways my spiritual path applies to all cultures. not just eastern.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3795471 - 02/17/05 10:58 PM (12 years, 5 days ago)

No arguement from me on this score. Madonna-Esther is a pet peeve. Down here in Miami, I've had middle school kids who belong to the Kabbalah Center and Madonna has shown up there to 'wow' the members, I suppose. Here is an individual whom I intuitively have an aversion to, despite the fact that I know that in the flesh I could just as easily be seduced by her charms if she wanted to appear charming. Perhaps that's one of the reasons I don't like her.

She has adorned her ears with crucifix earings (the ears being peripheral to the 'mandala' of the body - the crucific should be worn over the Heart to represent one's 'Center' not as a mere ornament at the periphery of the physical self). She has offended Hindus with her henna work and ingenuineness. I personally believe that her take on Kabbalism is to 'storm Heaven,' and circumvent her Gentile awareness of Christ by appropriating a mystical Truth originating with esoteric Jews. This may have philosophical validity for Jews themselves (of which I am one by birth) whose religious traditions pre-exist the historical Jesus, but it is a profanation inasmuch as I believe that Madonna thinks that she can appropriate Transcendental Truth while yet being the multi-millionaire 'bi**h' diva who now portrays herself as maternal, while disavowing her life of excess.

In a nutshell, she is like the Biblical Whore of Babylon (much more than anyone Aleister Crowley knew of), adorning her body, speech and mind with the Sacred traditions of humankind. I don't care a bit what the media or the cultic Kabbalah Center Jews say about her, she is a powerful example of demonic manifestation to me - worldliness that has grown bored. Madonna-Esther (Esther, from the Old Testament Queen - wife of King Ahashuerus who single-handedly prevented an ancient slaughter of the Jews and had the ancient Hitler-character named Hamen, hanged. Self-proclaimed Jewish savioress Madonna-Esther). She reminds me of a rich, spoiled Jewish acquaintance of mine in college who was so bored that his only social thrill was to try to seduce his friends' girlfriends. He seemed to be in love with his mother and would show her photo, and his wealthy parents had a larger-than-life winged fallen angel statue in their backyard. He even managed to get me to lie for him once, to get free concert tickets (which didn't work, but more importantly, he got me to go against my moral nature). At our last conversation, he asked me point blank: "Do you think I bring the demons?" I answered, "Yes, I believe that you do." He walked away, I never saw him again. Madonna reminds me of that guy in spiritual ways - like the fallen angels called Watchers in the books of Enoch who seduce humans.

But I digress. We can borrow, respectfully, from the Wisdom that rises like cream, to the top of other religions and philosophies - the best of the best, while maintaining the integrity of who we are. Humility is the important stance to assume, and humility precludes any type of arrogance, like assuming an exalted name or title. Who does not see this? How is it that so many people are so blind or asleep in the real matrix?


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflinePedM
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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3795677 - 02/17/05 11:16 PM (12 years, 5 days ago)

What if I'm not especially impressed with what my own ancestors had to say?


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OfflineShroomDoom
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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: Ped]
    #3795770 - 02/17/05 11:32 PM (12 years, 5 days ago)

nice avatar ped, is that Tara?


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