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 WildRunner Obey little,Resi  Registered: 02/13/05 Posts: 286 Loc: Where the wild t Last seen: 19 years, 1 month |
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You want some proof that we belong to a culture? Read Ishmael by Daniel Quinn. The Story of B is another good one by him. You'll be a whole dosage of what culture we belong to...
-------------------- If you dont know where you're going, any road will take you there.
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fireworks_god Sexy.Butt.McDanger   Registered: 03/12/02 Posts: 24,855 Loc: Pandurn Last seen: 9 months, 15 days |
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The idea of copyright protection of ideas and practices is seperating and implies the creation of even more harmful seperations (racial distinctions and boundaries, etc.). Should we barre people from Asia from being entitled to use the English language, as some things "do not translate", and they didn't have anything to do with the creation of it? I see very little to no difference between culture and language or anything else in this respect.
 Are you going to strive for a court order preventing people of Western descent to take interest in an Eastern philosophy in a manner that you feel does not reflect the essence of that Eastern philosophy? Are you going to use force to prevent people from doing so? Will you allow their perceived misuse of your idea to provoke negative emotions to stir throughout your veins? Is it better to react to these people harshly or to promote what you see as the true message of your culture in a positive, informative light? Should we react to these people in defense or respond to them with the intent to teach? Let us draw lines in the sand to protect our possessions and our interests, and let us reap the benefit of doing so. The more we seperate ourselves from them, the more we protect us. I would burn in a fit of rage if someone else listened to a song of mine and found a different interpretation of it than what was my intention.  Let us hold ourselves within the carved-into-stone images that the people of the past have created for us, and let us prevent infiltration of our tribe by those acrossed the seas. It is better to hold to our distinct images of self than to allow everyone to partake in the human experience, free of boundaries.     Peace. 
--------------------  
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you   
 
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UnenlightenedOne Two Spirited  Registered: 08/11/04 Posts: 612 Last seen: 20 years, 7 months |
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Correct.YOU see little to not difference.I see a great difference.You are being quite silly.There is a huge difference between language and exploiting and stealing a culture/philosophy/religion and cheapening it/mocking it.Why is cultural distinction harmful?Because you want to take from other cultures/religions and it would impede you?
Again youre beign quite silly and irrational.There is a difference between interest and stealing a culture/religion.Anyone who steals a culture/religion isnt a very nice or positive person to begin with.They never take it serious enough and they end up making a mockery of the culture/religion.Most cultures are very opposed to having their culture/religion taken on by outsiders who usually make a joke of it and give it a bad name.
Ok now what if someone took that song sang it very poorly and called it their own.What if they also gave it a bad name and made a mockery of it while giving it a different interpretation.Id imagine youd not be very pleased at all.
Dont be a jackass,no matter what setting humans live in one is never free of boundaries even in anarchy.In anarchy the boundaries are merely set by the stronger. Now what if I just dressed up like you,started living in your house and took the same name you had.Now what if I assumed your life everyday.What if I mimicked you although very poorly and started giving you a bad name because of my actions and lack of understanding of what its like to be you.Id imagine youd be very irritated and upset.Especially if I tried to take everything.Cultural theft is no different just much worse. -------------------- Do not desire to reach a high level.Rather work without thought of reward to iron out flaws and impurities in one's self for the sake of one's self.When one has done this one needs not to desire anymore. http://www.lifeforceonlinestore.com/yc/
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Alan Stone Corpus  Registered: 11/23/02 Posts: 986 Loc: Ten feet up Last seen: 21 years, 20 days |
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Well, that's not up to him. If you're claiming borrowing ideas is bad, YOU should the provide the reasons WHY NOT, instead of requiring Fireworks to prove his freedom of mind. Don't join the Thought Police without having decent arguments to prevent us from comitting Thought Crime. On to your reply to MY post.
Many Asian cultures also crave technology and money. Thus, it is no trait unique to our culture - if indeed there is such a thing.
I've never seen a Western buddhist who painted his skin yellow, who put on orange robes, who started talking Tibetan and who squatted a buddhist temple in the Himalayas. Have you?
Oh. Too bad they're dead, and too bad they left no written testimonies.
You are clearly not using the same definition of 'ancestors' here as in your next statement:
Which is it, is culture limited to only those whose blood you share? Or is it broader than that?
There is a difference between belonging to a tribe (i.e. being born into a village) and belonging to a culture. To make your analogy more appropriate, I suggest they say "I'm a member of the Masai culture". My answer: "Why the heck not?". Have you never seen an African American wearing ehtnic clothes? Wouldn't they be abusing that culture, according to your definition, if they weren't born and raised in Africa, but in America instead? Would they be abusing their own culture or another? -------------------- It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. - Aristotle
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UnenlightenedOne Two Spirited Registered: 08/11/04 Posts: 612 Last seen: 20 years, 7 months |
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You didnt understand the post obviously.He said cultural distinction is bad.Im saying that cultural distinction is good.I asked why he thinks it is bad.I am asking him to clarify his opinion so that I may understand the reasoning behind it. By the way,taking WITHOUT permission isnt called borrowing.Its called stealing.Taking WITH permission is called borrowing.Cultural distinction allows us to carry on our ancestors tradition and honor our ancestors appropiately.Our ancestors built our culture in a unique manner and developed beliefs,medicines,habits,food,etc distinctly and separately from other cultures.They were proud of it and we should be too.These days everyone is throwing thousands of years of honor and tradition and pride and work out the window.They pursue different things at a whim and its merely entertainment to them.They never really grasp it appropiately and never really do it justice.They lack the cultural roots that gave rise to such a belief system and culture.They lack the cultural understanding and respect. Without cultural distinction religion becomes meaningless and devolves into one or several mass religions with little basis and meaning.Native foodstuffs and medicines are forgotten in favor of synthetic meds and highly processed foods.Even now we give up walking and boating (as regular transportation) to become unhealthy out of shape and out of touch with the earth.Many great things have been lost and will continue to because people do not respect cultures and their ancestors.
Some developed cultures share some traits yes.But do asian consumers want the same products and things we do?No.Do they want the same things?No.Do they have the same urges and desires?No.Urges and desires vary with cultures.Are americans more greedy than other cultures?Probably.lmao.The basic desires and urges are obviously the same.Food,water,shelter,clothing, and reproduction are fairly universal.However, what use would a native masai have for a computer just as what would the man who lives in modern society need a spear for?
Aside from the painting the skin part and himalayas part, yes.Often enough.But regardless its the fact that its taken out of the cultural setting away for tibetan culture and medicine and lore which is a huge part of tibetan buddhism and its tore down into a concept with books teaching you how to be a tibetan buddhist.Its horrible.And to boot right now wrist malas are fashionable among some parts of the west.Many tibetan items of religious significance is sold as decor towesterners who are always wnating something new to be enamored with.
Our ancestors have left much lore and writings to a good distance back for the majority of cultures.Some cultures have oral tradition instead of writing.
Ancestors are people that came before you in your lineage and/or cultural group.It can be used to define either.Dont get caught up on technicalities.
Both.Your culture comes from your family and the cultural group they came from.Family is important in culture as well as the rest of your cultural group.Some people belong to two distinct but similar cultural groups because one parent comes from a different culture than the other one and then the parents decide which traditions to teach from which cultures.
There is no such thing as american culture."American culture" is a mixture of every individual culture.There is no american religion.lmao.There is no american food either.THe only americans are the ones that are native to america.I may be born in america but Im european all the way.My ancestors are from europe.I am mostly german.Now being born in america doesnt make my ancestors from america nor does it change anything. African americans have african heritage and culture.They have strong cultural ties to africa.Although they also developed a culture of their own in the days of slave trading.I dont see how they would be abusing any culture.They remain strong within their culture and they are not going around taking from other cultures in general. -------------------- Do not desire to reach a high level.Rather work without thought of reward to iron out flaws and impurities in one's self for the sake of one's self.When one has done this one needs not to desire anymore. http://www.lifeforceonlinestore.com/yc/
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WildRunner Obey little,Resi Registered: 02/13/05 Posts: 286 Loc: Where the wild t Last seen: 19 years, 1 month |
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Has anyone here read any of Daniel Quinns books? Cause I feel that I cant use the term 'culture' with people that havent read his books.
He claims there are really only two cultures. The Takers, and the Leavers. Leavers are people that have been around for a few million years, and are still around today; what most people would call out of ignorance, primitive. And the Takes, our people, east and west that have been around 10 or 12 thousand years. We are all by Quinns defination, Takers. -------------------- If you dont know where you're going, any road will take you there.
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midway Stranger  Registered: 02/20/04 Posts: 212 Last seen: 20 years, 8 months |
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Its probably because eastern philosophies are geared more toward self improvement and self control, rather than simply belief or faith. Thats what makes them intelligent persuits and beneficial to mankind.
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fireworks_god Sexy.Butt.McDanger Registered: 03/12/02 Posts: 24,855 Loc: Pandurn Last seen: 9 months, 15 days |
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In your eyes, it is stealing a culture/religion/philosophy and cheaping or mocking it, but to those who partake in what you describe, are they intentionally setting out to cheapen and mock it? Perhaps they aren't going about learning and practicing said culture or religion as you feel they should, but the very fact that they are interested in doing so opens them up to the possibillity of learning and practicing said culture or religion in a manner that you feel is appropriate. I do not see the benefit of emotionally reacting to other people's suspossed "ignorance", as you describe it.  Also, I did not say that cultural distinction itself is harmful, but that the copyright protection of held cultural distinctions is seperating, and the subsequent seperations that result from that are harmful. To say cultural distinction is seperating is obviously true, implied by the very definition of distinction.  When one sets a list of requirements that need to be fufilled in order to be privledged to ideas and practices, especially when pertaining to culture and ancestrage, one naturally excludes members of other races and origins to partake, which has a whole list of negative consequences.
The difference between interest and stealing a culture or religion is not existing in the unassuming minds who do not understand said culture or religion in what some pratictioners consider the proper context, but rather those pratictioners who feel they understand and practice said culture or religion in the proper context. I do not honestly see any person setting out with the firm intention of "stealing another's religion or culture", all I see is an interest in another's religion or culture without the "proper" understanding and intention to practice it as some practitioners feel is necessary. I would surmise that true followers of a particular culture or religion would not let their pride and also their fear of losing their culture or religion interfere with the propagation of the understanding that their culture or religion promotes.
People are free to act as they wish. Their song would indeed be different than my original creation, and although the fact that they claim it as their own would create some confusion, my original song still exists exactly as I created it, still there for others to listen to. I cannot control how others act, nor is it beneficial for me to take offense by their actions.
Why resort to name-calling?
Am I to conduct myself in a different manner because someone else is creating confusion as to what others think of me by doing a "poor imitation" of mimicking myself? There is a difference between the ideas that exist in my mind and that are expressed by me, and ideas existing in others minds and expressed by them. My ideas and my expressions still exist in their own right, exactly as intended. People are naturally going to understand things in their own perspective and from a different context than what others intend. Are you suggesting that we do not express our cultural, religious, and philosophical ideas so that this is avoided? If it is not expressed, nothing is gained from it by others, even if some will misunderstand when it is expressed. Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Ped Interested In Your Brain    Registered: 08/30/99 Posts: 5,494 Loc: Canada Last seen: 9 years, 6 months |
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>> Has anyone here read any of Daniel Quinns books? Cause I feel that I cant use the term 'culture' with people that havent read his books.
He claims there are really only two cultures. The Takers, and the Leavers. Leavers are people that have been around for a few million years, and are still around today; what most people would call out of ignorance, primitive. And the Takes, our people, east and west that have been around 10 or 12 thousand years. We are all by Quinns defination, Takers. Nice to meet you, B.  I've read Ishmael and The Story of B. They were excellent, compelling books. I had some disagreements with the thesis in The Story of B ("twins of the same birth"? "Religon = Taker"?) but overall it was a fantastic read. -------------------- 
 Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace
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 infidelGOD illusion  Registered: 04/18/02 Posts: 3,040 Loc: there |
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your basic premise does not make sense. all cultures are the result of cultural diffusion. why stop the process now?
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tak geo's henchman    Registered: 11/20/00 Posts: 3,778 Loc: nowhereland |
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This is why I have patented my new religion.
-------------------- The DJ's took pills to stay awake and play for seven days.
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Zekebomb sociophagus  Registered: 08/24/03 Posts: 1,164 Loc: BC province Last seen: 18 years, 9 months |
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I see two circumstances under which you would feel the need to say this: 1) you belong to some 'culture' which you feel is being appropriated, or 'stolen', and it chaps your ass for some reason; or 2) you used to be someone who 'stole' bits of other cultures, and now you renounce your ways. am I far off?
see, to me there's a difference between 'taking' or 'stealing' and 'copying' or 'emulating'. sure, if I bust into your grass hut and physically remove your altar and religious trappings, that's pretty bad shit. but if I take a picture of your altar and then sit down and carve all the stuff out of wood, because I'm moved to so do for some reason, then who cares? I'm not harming you in any way.
you mean, "While learning about other cultures is very good, it is better yet to not learn about them unless you descend from those who built them." or am I wrong?
I disagree. like I said above, there's a big, huge, yawning difference between 'stealing' and 'emulating'. and of course I expect the 'stealers' would have nothing to actually contribute to it, and if they made any changes it would be not contribution but sacrelige. yes?
here we are again. a difference between respecting cultures and stealing them. isn't it a sign of respect to want to emulate something? I mean isn't that the biggest sign of respect possible? I'd like you to define what you mean by 'stealing' exactly. obviously it's something other than physically removing stuff, right? because we'd all agree that that would be bad, I'm sure. there'd be no discussion if you were simply telling us "physically removing cultural artifacts from the descendants of their original makers is wrong." so you're actually saying something else. but what?
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Alan Stone Corpus Registered: 11/23/02 Posts: 986 Loc: Ten feet up Last seen: 21 years, 20 days |
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My point is the African-American isn't immersed in the culture anymore. And you're probably not with German culture in the same way some of my German friends are, who speak German and live in Germany.
My point is they don't. They may have African genes, but they don't know the first thing about life in Africa unless they research it. They don't speak any African language unless they take lessons, they don't know anything about its history if they don't research it, etc. In that sense, they would be stealing from a culture they weren't raised in, regardless of whether they say they belong to the culture or not. They do, however, know everything about being a black person in America. They know about the ongoing opression, they know about slavery, etc. They were raised in english, they were influenced by American media, they meet Americans every day. Some of my distant relatives live in America. I forgot where exactly, because I've never seen them. They came over to visit once, but my parents wouldn't allow me to skip school to meet them. Anyway, they wanted to follow their roots and visit Belgium. I tell you, they knew nothing about Belgian culture. They expected to come home to the Belgium their grandfather's father had left, but, of course, they didn't find it. If all Americans know as much about their 'culture', then they clearly claim to be something they're not. Big if, though. -------------------- It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. - Aristotle
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UnenlightenedOne Two Spirited Registered: 08/11/04 Posts: 612 Last seen: 20 years, 7 months |
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Intention matters not.It is not what they intend to do but the effect it has and the problems theyre causing that matters.There is a fine line between learning about a culture and stealing from it.While one should learn about others they should not interfere nor take from said culture.
Again the intentions of people doesnt matter.Its the damage they cause and effects they have.Also it is plainly stealing.
Again a there is a fine line between learning about a culture and stealing from it.
Im quite sure your words here do not reflect your true actions and thoughts.Everyone gets offended.Most of them quite easily.Especially when people mock or imitate them even with good intentions.Im quite sure you're not going to tell me you're in some way enlightened.
If you're going to make sarcastic ignorant comments (as you did prior) then I may choose to be less pleasant in response to that.
Thats a load of crap excusing people to steal from cultures.
Are you suggesting that you're going to continue to make sarcastic ignorant comments?Dont be a jackass.You know precisely what I mean. -------------------- Do not desire to reach a high level.Rather work without thought of reward to iron out flaws and impurities in one's self for the sake of one's self.When one has done this one needs not to desire anymore. http://www.lifeforceonlinestore.com/yc/
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UnenlightenedOne Two Spirited Registered: 08/11/04 Posts: 612 Last seen: 20 years, 7 months |
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To preserve the uniqueness of every culture and to prevent us from losing any of it.Without cultural distinction we would not have many of the substances we enjoy today.If we do not preserve other cultures we may never discover more of the substances and medicines used by dying cultures.If those cultures die,we will have no records left of their medicines and substances. If we do notpreserve individual cultural identities eventually we will lose a wealth of rich cultural tradition and practices as well as a wealth of information.There is somuch to lose by allowing all cultures to melt into one. -------------------- Do not desire to reach a high level.Rather work without thought of reward to iron out flaws and impurities in one's self for the sake of one's self.When one has done this one needs not to desire anymore. http://www.lifeforceonlinestore.com/yc/
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UnenlightenedOne Two Spirited Registered: 08/11/04 Posts: 612 Last seen: 20 years, 7 months |
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Not perfectly.However they maintain and enjoy very rich african culture and maintain much of the traditions and practices.As much as possible without living in africa.
Not quite in the same way no.However I do maintain the traditions and culture as best as possible without living in germany.Remove anyone from their homeland and the expression of their culture will lack something.Its inevitable.But they are not abusing or harming their culture in any way.
Its still their culture raised in their homeland or not.They still maintain the holidays and religion.They still practice it the same.They merely dont live in africa.Nothing else has changed. By your logic most religions practiced would be stolen because those cities and places do not exist anymore and/or the people do not live in that country.The daily life of the times the religions were created in has long been gone as well.
This would mean by your logic that anyone not living the way their ancestors did would then be stealing their culture.Thats silly.That would then mean by the same logic that todays "american" culture will be considered stolen tomorrow.Computers are a major part of todays culture.Now if they become obsolete, does this mean that the whople culture is then stolen because tomorrow's generation may not use computers.
Yes big if.A lot of americans simply dont care about their culture and/or roots.Todays america discards anything they feel is antiquated which is basically anything not in their generation these days.Look at where this lack of culture has gotten us.Most young people today have no respect for most things.Especially not elders,ancestors and especially not entheogens.Im speaking of a generation in general so dont say "well so and so is X number of years and they are respectful of such and such." This lack of respect today comes from lack of roots and lack of understanding of the culture and history behind such things.If they knew more about these things they might have a bit more respect for them. -------------------- Do not desire to reach a high level.Rather work without thought of reward to iron out flaws and impurities in one's self for the sake of one's self.When one has done this one needs not to desire anymore. http://www.lifeforceonlinestore.com/yc/
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Zekebomb sociophagus Registered: 08/24/03 Posts: 1,164 Loc: BC province Last seen: 18 years, 9 months |
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Remove anyone from their homeland and the expression of their culture will lack something.Its inevitable.
that is incorrect. remove anyone from their homeland and the expression of their culture will change. the value judgement belongs only to you. you haven't really explained what you think 'cultural theft' is. nor 'culture'. I'd wager a hefty bet that we're all working with different definitions, and this is a major cause of dissent in this thread. I'll quote myself, only to save myself some work: I'd like you to define what you mean by 'stealing' exactly. obviously it's something other than physically removing stuff, right? because we'd all agree that that would be bad, I'm sure. there'd be no discussion if you were simply telling us "physically removing cultural artifacts from the descendants of their original makers is wrong." so you're actually saying something else. but what?
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fireworks_god Sexy.Butt.McDanger Registered: 03/12/02 Posts: 24,855 Loc: Pandurn Last seen: 9 months, 15 days |
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Intention matters in the respect that it points towards a genuine interest in pursuing the particular culture, religion, or philosophy, despite what some declare is an improper way of learning or practicing said culture, religion, or philosophy. How does one "steal" from a culture, religion, or philosophy? How does anyone steal an idea, which is all that these things are? Regardless of how you feel, there is quite actually no law and no enforcement when it comes to practicing a religion, culture, or philosophy. I'm surprised that one would rather hold a negative view of people with genuine interest in their culture or religion instead of embracing the oppurtunity to teach them about it.
It is not "plainly stealing". You seem to hold a rigid viewpoint of culture as an unchanging, set in stone, objectively existing thing, but in reality, it is simply behavior patterns. I'm amazed by the thought of copywritten behavior patterns and the thought of stealing behavior patterns.  Culture has continously evolved as the people living within a culture have changed, as time passes and new experiences come into being. There is no identifiable "culture" and no possibility of stealing from one.
Draw for me this fine line, my friend. The line doesn't seem to exist in those who set out to learn about a culture, religion, or philosophy, it seems to exist in the minds of others who perceive "damage" resulting from the aforementioned people setting out to learn and practice. Who has the authority to draw that line, and why do they have that authority?
I am not to claim I am Enlightened as I do not know what that would mean. However, while I do have bad days, I generally do not take offense by others actions, especially over trivial matters, and I certainly strive to not punish myself with negative emotions because of circumstances out of my control, as it would definitely be insane to do so, regardless of how much you insist my words do not reflect my true actions and thoughts (keeping in mind that you have no knowledge of me to base that on anyways).
Calling me a jackass does not benefit our discussion in any way, nor does labeling my comments as sarcastic or ignorant. Resorting to name-calling is quite honestly a violation of the rules for this forum, which you are subject to by posting here. It shows absolutely no respect, not to mention the fact that it is technically flaming (both violations of the rules). You also threatened to act in a similar, more severe manner. I'd recommend actually responding to my thoughts relevant to this discussion instead of resorting to cheap-shot tatics that contribute nothing to the ideas being expressed and discussed. 
This is an example of you labeling my response in a derogative manner instead of actually replying to it.
I'll notify a moderator for you. Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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infidelGOD illusion Registered: 04/18/02 Posts: 3,040 Loc: there |
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what culture are you trying to preserve? I guarantee you that whatever culture you're trying to "preserve" is itself a result of cultural mixing. there are no pure cultures. and culture isn't static. it is constantly changing. what you are proposing is against the natural evolution of human society.
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moog Stranger  Registered: 02/15/05 Posts: 1,296 |
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Information and ideas are free to exchange. The barriers between cultures that you see are created only in your mind. You want to preserve cultures? This will get you nowhere. Ideas need to evolve and change and progress. When wisdom and ideas are put in static isloation they turn stale, lifeless. That is the nature of death, and ideas die too. To keep them alive we must keep them moving, between all people whoever they are and wherever they're from. Let's not preserve the status quo of separation. Let's merge cultures and let them transform into something new. Movement and change is the nature of life.
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