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OfflineUnenlightenedOne
Two Spirited

Registered: 08/12/04
Posts: 612
Last seen: 15 years, 10 months
Eastern philosophies...
    #3792493 - 02/17/05 11:03 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Why does there seem to be such an obsession here with eastern philosophies?

Seek out your ancestors instead of another person's ancestors.

Your own heritage will be much more relevantto your culture/way of life than another heritage which was developed under another culture and way of life.In "translation" much meaning is lost.

One should not really intrude upon another's heritage.It is akin to stealing and many people feel that way.Often times it is also not respected properly and taken lightly.

Does anyone elsehave an opinion about this?


--------------------
Do not desire to reach a high level.Rather work without thought of reward to iron out flaws and impurities in one's self for the sake of one's self.When one has done this one needs not to desire anymore. http://www.lifeforceonlinestore.com/yc/


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Offlinestefan
work in progress

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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3792524 - 02/17/05 11:13 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

maybe because we all share (the most of us) the same culture, to a certain extent


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: stefan]
    #3792622 - 02/17/05 11:40 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

even the ancestors travelled to the rising sun


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OfflineJCoke
dream observer
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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3792918 - 02/17/05 12:49 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I think it's good to study/look into other religions and traditions of every culture, of every time...I like watching shows on travel channel about tribes in africa or south america, I always get interested in there lives, completely sucked into it, that's some good stuff right there. :thumbup:

still look at your families ancestors too of course.

hell, your grandparents are probally smarter than you think, full of stories, you should listen sometime, even if they are extremely exaggerated, and go on for hours, first hand accounts are good, me thinks.


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hello, your name is life on earth
------------------------------------

"I traveled a long way seeking God, but when I finally gave up and turned back, there He was, within me! O Lalli! Now why do you wander like a beggar? Make some effort, and He will grant you a vision of Himself in the form of bliss in your heart." -the saint of the Kashmir Shaivism tradition: Lalli.


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OfflineUnenlightenedOne
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Registered: 08/12/04
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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: JCoke]
    #3792935 - 02/17/05 12:52 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

I think it's good to study/look into other religions and traditions of every culture, of every time...I like watching shows on travel channel about tribes in africa or south america, I always get interested in there lives, completely sucked into it, that's some good stuff right there.





It fascinates me as well.I agree that one should always learn about other cultures.However, what I dont agree with is cultural theft.


--------------------
Do not desire to reach a high level.Rather work without thought of reward to iron out flaws and impurities in one's self for the sake of one's self.When one has done this one needs not to desire anymore. http://www.lifeforceonlinestore.com/yc/


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3793001 - 02/17/05 01:06 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

we should prosecute


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OfflineJCoke
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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3793022 - 02/17/05 01:11 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

UnenlightenedOne said:
Quote:

I think it's good to study/look into other religions and traditions of every culture, of every time...I like watching shows on travel channel about tribes in africa or south america, I always get interested in there lives, completely sucked into it, that's some good stuff right there.





It fascinates me as well.I agree that one should always learn about other cultures.However, what I dont agree with is cultural theft.




it's not theft, theft is taking away from someone else, so you have what they once had, with out there permission of course.

why do you care what other people do?

is it wrong to find the answers from another culture?

is there a culture on earth who gets angry if people believe/follow them?

would you get angry if someone agrees with your ideas?


--------------------
hello, your name is life on earth
------------------------------------

"I traveled a long way seeking God, but when I finally gave up and turned back, there He was, within me! O Lalli! Now why do you wander like a beggar? Make some effort, and He will grant you a vision of Himself in the form of bliss in your heart." -the saint of the Kashmir Shaivism tradition: Lalli.


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OfflineWildRunner
Obey little,Resist much

Registered: 02/13/05
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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3793027 - 02/17/05 01:12 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Perhaps they look towards other religions because they cant find what they're looking for in their own?

Indeed this is often how real cultural diverstiy is lost.

Personally, I agree, that people should spend time researching their roots. Its really easy to forget where one comes from. But on the other hand, take a look at the north american natives. People are fascinated by their rich history and background. The reason it is so strong, is because they havent forgotten where they come from.


--------------------
If you dont know where you're going, any road will take you there.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: WildRunner]
    #3793049 - 02/17/05 01:16 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

what a twist - I like it!
an official insistance that people be different from eachother
a state that douses all book fires.


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OfflineMAGnum
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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: WildRunner]
    #3793088 - 02/17/05 01:26 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I say learn about all cultures and things and exstact the truth by faith through love (expreriance through exsistance). If you can, learn a little about every language. Learn about every religion and supersticion. Have fun the whole time and explore the reality we have been given with Love.


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Agent 727
7


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: UnenlightenedOne] * 1
    #3793777 - 02/17/05 04:44 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Well, C.G. Jung was of your opinion that Westerners need to develop their own yoga forms and such. Lotus blossoms do not grow well in the soil and water of the Western psyche, but Indian Yogas of both Hindu and Buddhist forms seem to make a lot of practical sense in the Light of psychedelic experience.

Westerners who use psychedelics seem to fall into the Fourth Way school of Gurdjieff (as pointed out on www.thefane.org) but I have also enjoined the Way of the Monk to a certain extent and moreso the Way of the Yogi (particularly Hatha Yoga) to direct the influx of higher energies. I can't imagine using a psychedelic without doing a few basic asanas. Pranayama used to follow, but I haven't done such intensive 'hyperpranic' experimentation in many years. I now focus on being here and now after becoming energized.

Interestingly, the word 'energy' seems to separate not only the Indian and perhaps Taoist Yogas from the West, but also separates Eastern Christianity from the Western forms. Eastern Christianity speaks a great deal about GOD's 'Uncreated Energies,' and how they suffuse the human being, leading to 'Theosis' - the process of a human being transformed into GOD essentially. I have posted in the past on a hidden relationship between Eastern Christianity, the Eleusinian Mysteries which used a psychedelic and its possible use by Socrates and Plato (maybe why Socrates was put to death even). Since Eastern Christianity is heavily influenced by Plato, it is conceivable that Platonic and Neoplatonic philosophy has the psychedelic 'Kykeon' of the Eleusinian Mysteries at its very orgins. The form of ergot that grew on the form of barley that some scholars believe made up the 'Kykeon,' actually produces tiny purple mushrooms when the grain falls to the Earth. That is why I have the mushroomic and grain cross as an avatar - a real Eastern Christian symbol obtained from a supply house. It emblazons our Jewish-Christian Gnostic altar at home.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3793993 - 02/17/05 05:34 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Seek out my ancestors? What could I possibly learn from them that I can't from any other human being?

Why the stress on heritage and 'uniqueness' of cultures? All seperations between humans (asides from maybe the male-female dialysis) are entirely fabricated in my opinion. We all have the same building blocks, the same basic psyche, the same urges and desires.
So why ask a dead man what a living person can answer much more quickly and demonstrate to boot?

Edit-in: stealing is a bit harsh. Is any adopted idea a stolen idea?


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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


Edited by Alan Stone (02/17/05 05:36 PM)


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OfflineUnenlightenedOne
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Registered: 08/12/04
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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: MarkostheGnostic] * 1
    #3794157 - 02/17/05 06:07 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Im more refering to the wannabe types who are often heavily romaticized with other cultures and even though they have no heritage in that culture they seek to become part of it and never respect it nor take it seriously enough.In this disposable era we live in people adopt and shed religions often and tend to know little about what they are involving themselves in.Often times books at bookstores catering to these types only make it worse and spread misinformation and disrespect for these cultures and religions.It is not simply a belief but a way of life for these cultures.The new age movement is largely to blame as well as media like Tv and newspapers.

Mimicking rituals,ceremonies and similar things is a mockery to these cultures.Many feel these people are taking their culture and cheapening it and treating like a commodity to be bought and sold to entertain at a whim.

Whats worse is to cater to the wannabe's corporations exploit other cultures in a worse manner just to turn a quick profit.

"Sharing" in a culture that likely doesnt want others to "share" in their cultural identity is cultural theft.

Taking one's cultural identity and turning it into your own is selfish and highly disrespectful.Most of the people who tend to spread cultural theft and make it popular to other cultures are often the ones stealing the culture as well and modifying it to fit a specific market and make a few bucks.

I'd be absolutely horrified if someone came in and took my beliefs and my culture and started claiming to be part ofmy culture and didnt take it serious and knew little accurate information about my culture.Id be even more horrified if my religious items became nothing more than decor and novelty.Its very disrespectful.Its also a very bad image projected onto the culture when a bunch of people who know little about a culture go around claiming to part of it and spread misinformation and doubt.It especially horrifies me when people claim to be enlightened or a shaman when they have no basis for such a claim other than wanting to be enlightened or a shaman and really have no clue as to the nature of such things and what they really are.

While learning about other cultures is very good,it is better yet to leave those cultures to those who built them.

It'd be like someone just coming and stealing what you and your ancestors have built through hard work for thousands of years and claiming it as their own even though they have done nothing themselves to contribute to it.

There is a difference between respecting cultures and stealing them and you cannot take another culture while respecting it.Please do not steal another culture and claim it as your own.Ok people?


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Do not desire to reach a high level.Rather work without thought of reward to iron out flaws and impurities in one's self for the sake of one's self.When one has done this one needs not to desire anymore. http://www.lifeforceonlinestore.com/yc/


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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3794204 - 02/17/05 06:17 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Honestly, I don't identify that strongly with my ancestors or my culture. Sure, my culture is part of who I am, but a larger part of who I am is defined by those I've crossed paths with, the body I inhabit and the things I do.

There is no set, universal definition of "culture". Hence, it's impossible to determine the in-crowd. Therefore, the only proof that you or I belong to a culture is anecdotal: you say you belong to a culture. No one can refute that claim by any other means than playing the "Are not"-"Am too" game.

I really don't think in terms of national borders, hereditary lifestyle or set definitions of anything related to the human experience TM. Those are all imaginary.


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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


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OfflineUnenlightenedOne
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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: Alan Stone]
    #3794263 - 02/17/05 06:27 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Why the stress on heritage and 'uniqueness' of cultures?




If no one carries on their traditions from their ancestors they will disappear forever.Without seperation of cultures with distinctlines everythign will melt into a meaningless blob of mixed culture that has no real significance.Also you should respect other's sacred things.It is not something you can just toy with.

Quote:

All seperations between humans (asides from maybe the male-female dialysis) are entirely fabricated in my opinion. We all have the same building blocks, the same basic psyche, the same urges and desires.





Urges and desires vary with culture.In american culture we often desire technology,money,etc.Native tribesmen in say africa, they want none of these things.They desire very different things.While basics may be the same like food, they even eat different food than we do in many aspects.Learning how to cook native food isnt going to help you so why would learning native customs and medicines and etc help you in spirituality when they have no cultural meaning or basis.

I mean what if I dressed like you and acted like you and then I went around spreading misinformation/rumors/acting silly/etc and made you look bad.I cant imagine you would be pleased at all.

Quote:

So why ask a dead man what a living person can answer much more quickly and demonstrate to boot?



Your ancestors can teach you traditions and culture which has been carried on for thousands of years by only your people.They can teach you to find your way.They can show you something real.They can teach youmany things but what you learn from them is your choice.

I mean sure no one HAS to seek their heritage but they'd be missing out on rich cultural history and its somethign to be very proud of.Our ancestors built each of our cultures and carried them on for thousands of years.They taught us how to live,how to survive,how to heal,etc.Without the past we would never progress.

Quote:

stealing is a bit harsh. Is any adopted idea a stolen idea?




If its not yours to take or "adopt" to being with then yes.

What would you do if your parents taught you nothing and you had to figure out what was good to eat on your own and what was good for healing what and etc.Many of us would die and we'd be lucky to escape extinction.


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Do not desire to reach a high level.Rather work without thought of reward to iron out flaws and impurities in one's self for the sake of one's self.When one has done this one needs not to desire anymore. http://www.lifeforceonlinestore.com/yc/


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OfflineUnenlightenedOne
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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: Alan Stone]
    #3794317 - 02/17/05 06:37 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

There is no set, universal definition of "culture". Hence, it's impossible to determine the in-crowd. Therefore, the only proof that you or I belong to a culture is anecdotal: you say you belong to a culture. .





If a white person says "I am a tribesman of the masai tribe in africa."Are you really going to believe them?There are definitely cultural boundaries and definitions.I mean sure there are always going to be liars but most liars dont take enough time to learn enough facts and culture to be mistaken for that culture.

Quote:

Hence, it's impossible to determine the in-crowd.




How so?

Quote:

No one can refute that claim by any other means than playing the "Are not"-"Am too" game




People can trace their lineage to find out.I honestly dont know anyone who even claims to be a heritage their not.Rather I see lots of " X culture is cool.Im going to convert and become part of X culture." And then you see unknowledgeable people running around with rip-offs of sacred items and they dont even know the meaning behind them.

Quote:

I really don't think in terms of national borders, hereditary lifestyle or set definitions of anything related to the human experience TM. Those are all imaginary.





Thats your opinion.Try telling that to various cultural groups and see how they respond.


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Do not desire to reach a high level.Rather work without thought of reward to iron out flaws and impurities in one's self for the sake of one's self.When one has done this one needs not to desire anymore. http://www.lifeforceonlinestore.com/yc/


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OfflineShroomDoom
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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3795075 - 02/17/05 09:45 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

UnenlightenedOne said:
Why does there seem to be such an obsession here with eastern philosophies?

Seek out your ancestors instead of another person's ancestors.

Your own heritage will be much more relevantto your culture/way of life than another heritage which was developed under another culture and way of life.In "translation" much meaning is lost.

One should not really intrude upon another's heritage.It is akin to stealing and many people feel that way.Often times it is also not respected properly and taken lightly.

Does anyone elsehave an opinion about this?




My Good Karma brought me to the Darhma. hey that ryhmes! anyways my spiritual path applies to all cultures. not just eastern.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3795471 - 02/17/05 10:58 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

No arguement from me on this score. Madonna-Esther is a pet peeve. Down here in Miami, I've had middle school kids who belong to the Kabbalah Center and Madonna has shown up there to 'wow' the members, I suppose. Here is an individual whom I intuitively have an aversion to, despite the fact that I know that in the flesh I could just as easily be seduced by her charms if she wanted to appear charming. Perhaps that's one of the reasons I don't like her.

She has adorned her ears with crucifix earings (the ears being peripheral to the 'mandala' of the body - the crucific should be worn over the Heart to represent one's 'Center' not as a mere ornament at the periphery of the physical self). She has offended Hindus with her henna work and ingenuineness. I personally believe that her take on Kabbalism is to 'storm Heaven,' and circumvent her Gentile awareness of Christ by appropriating a mystical Truth originating with esoteric Jews. This may have philosophical validity for Jews themselves (of which I am one by birth) whose religious traditions pre-exist the historical Jesus, but it is a profanation inasmuch as I believe that Madonna thinks that she can appropriate Transcendental Truth while yet being the multi-millionaire 'bi**h' diva who now portrays herself as maternal, while disavowing her life of excess.

In a nutshell, she is like the Biblical Whore of Babylon (much more than anyone Aleister Crowley knew of), adorning her body, speech and mind with the Sacred traditions of humankind. I don't care a bit what the media or the cultic Kabbalah Center Jews say about her, she is a powerful example of demonic manifestation to me - worldliness that has grown bored. Madonna-Esther (Esther, from the Old Testament Queen - wife of King Ahashuerus who single-handedly prevented an ancient slaughter of the Jews and had the ancient Hitler-character named Hamen, hanged. Self-proclaimed Jewish savioress Madonna-Esther). She reminds me of a rich, spoiled Jewish acquaintance of mine in college who was so bored that his only social thrill was to try to seduce his friends' girlfriends. He seemed to be in love with his mother and would show her photo, and his wealthy parents had a larger-than-life winged fallen angel statue in their backyard. He even managed to get me to lie for him once, to get free concert tickets (which didn't work, but more importantly, he got me to go against my moral nature). At our last conversation, he asked me point blank: "Do you think I bring the demons?" I answered, "Yes, I believe that you do." He walked away, I never saw him again. Madonna reminds me of that guy in spiritual ways - like the fallen angels called Watchers in the books of Enoch who seduce humans.

But I digress. We can borrow, respectfully, from the Wisdom that rises like cream, to the top of other religions and philosophies - the best of the best, while maintaining the integrity of who we are. Humility is the important stance to assume, and humility precludes any type of arrogance, like assuming an exalted name or title. Who does not see this? How is it that so many people are so blind or asleep in the real matrix?


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflinePed
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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3795677 - 02/17/05 11:16 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

What if I'm not especially impressed with what my own ancestors had to say?


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:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
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OfflineShroomDoom
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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: Ped]
    #3795770 - 02/17/05 11:32 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

nice avatar ped, is that Tara?


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OfflineWildRunner
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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: ShroomDoom]
    #3795814 - 02/17/05 11:44 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

You want some proof that we belong to a culture? Read Ishmael by Daniel Quinn. The Story of B is another good one by him. You'll be a whole dosage of what culture we belong to...


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If you dont know where you're going, any road will take you there.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: WildRunner]
    #3797434 - 02/18/05 09:28 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

The idea of copyright protection of ideas and practices is seperating and implies the creation of even more harmful seperations (racial distinctions and boundaries, etc.). Should we barre people from Asia from being entitled to use the English language, as some things "do not translate", and they didn't have anything to do with the creation of it? I see very little to no difference between culture and language or anything else in this respect.  :rolleyes:

Are you going to strive for a court order preventing people of Western descent to take interest in an Eastern philosophy in a manner that you feel does not reflect the essence of that Eastern philosophy? Are you going to use force to prevent people from doing so? Will you allow their perceived misuse of your idea to provoke negative emotions to stir throughout your veins? Is it better to react to these people harshly or to promote what you see as the true message of your culture in a positive, informative light? Should we react to these people in defense or respond to them with the intent to teach?

Let us draw lines in the sand to protect our possessions and our interests, and let us reap the benefit of doing so. The more we seperate ourselves from them, the more we protect us. I would burn in a fit of rage if someone else listened to a song of mine and found a different interpretation of it than what was my intention. :mad:

Let us hold ourselves within the carved-into-stone images that the people of the past have created for us, and let us prevent infiltration of our tribe by those acrossed the seas. It is better to hold to our distinct images of self than to allow everyone to partake in the human experience, free of boundaries.

:smirk:

:wink:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


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:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineUnenlightenedOne
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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: fireworks_god]
    #3797699 - 02/18/05 11:31 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

The idea of copyright protection of ideas and practices is seperating and implies the creation of even more harmful seperations (racial distinctions and boundaries, etc.). Should we barre people from Asia from being entitled to use the English language, as some things "do not translate", and they didn't have anything to do with the creation of it? I see very little to no difference between culture and language or anything else in this respect.





:rolleyes: Correct.YOU see little to not difference.I see a great difference.You are being quite silly.There is a huge difference between language and exploiting and stealing a culture/philosophy/religion and cheapening it/mocking it.Why is cultural distinction harmful?Because you want to take from other cultures/religions and it would impede you?

Quote:

Are you going to strive for a court order preventing people of Western descent to take interest in an Eastern philosophy in a manner that you feel does not reflect the essence of that Eastern philosophy? Are you going to use force to prevent people from doing so? Will you allow their perceived misuse of your idea to provoke negative emotions to stir throughout your veins? Is it better to react to these people harshly or to promote what you see as the true message of your culture in a positive, informative light? Should we react to these people in defense or respond to them with the intent to teach?





Again youre beign quite silly and irrational.There is a difference between interest and stealing a culture/religion.Anyone who steals a culture/religion isnt a very nice or positive person to begin with.They never take it serious enough and they end up making a mockery of the culture/religion.Most cultures are very opposed to having their culture/religion taken on by outsiders who usually make a joke of it and give it a bad name.

Quote:

Let us draw lines in the sand to protect our possessions and our interests, and let us reap the benefit of doing so. The more we seperate ourselves from them, the more we protect us. I would burn in a fit of rage if someone else listened to a song of mine and found a different interpretation of it than what was my intention.





Ok now what if someone took that song  sang it very poorly and called it their own.What if they also gave it a bad name and made a mockery of it while giving it a different interpretation.Id imagine youd not be very pleased at all.

Quote:

Let us hold ourselves within the carved-into-stone images that the people of the past have created for us, and let us prevent infiltration of our tribe by those acrossed the seas. It is better to hold to our distinct images of self than to allow everyone to partake in the human experience, free of boundaries.





Dont be a jackass,no matter what setting humans live in one is never free of boundaries even in anarchy.In anarchy the boundaries are merely set by the stronger.

Now what if I just dressed up like you,started living in your house and took the same name you had.Now what if I assumed your life everyday.What if I mimicked you although very poorly and started giving you a bad name because of my actions and lack of understanding of what its like to be you.Id imagine youd be very irritated and upset.Especially if I tried to take everything.Cultural theft is no different just much worse.


--------------------
Do not desire to reach a high level.Rather work without thought of reward to iron out flaws and impurities in one's self for the sake of one's self.When one has done this one needs not to desire anymore. http://www.lifeforceonlinestore.com/yc/


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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3798601 - 02/18/05 03:25 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Why is cultural distinction harmful?Because you want to take from other cultures/religions and it would impede you?



Well, that's not up to him. If you're claiming borrowing ideas is bad, YOU should the provide the reasons WHY NOT, instead of requiring Fireworks to prove his freedom of mind. Don't join the Thought Police without having decent arguments to prevent us from comitting Thought Crime.

On to your reply to MY post.

Quote:

Urges and desires vary with culture.In american culture we often desire technology,money,etc.Native tribesmen in say africa, they want none of these things



Many Asian cultures also crave technology and money. Thus, it is no trait unique to our culture - if indeed there is such a thing.

Quote:

I mean what if I dressed like you and acted like you and then I went around spreading misinformation/rumors/acting silly/etc and made you look bad.I cant imagine you would be pleased at all.



I've never seen a Western buddhist who painted his skin yellow, who put on orange robes, who started talking Tibetan and who squatted a buddhist temple in the Himalayas. Have you?

Quote:

Your ancestors can teach you traditions and culture which has been carried on for thousands of years by only your people.



Oh. Too bad they're dead, and too bad they left no written testimonies.

Quote:

Our ancestors built each of our cultures and carried them on for thousands of years.They taught us how to live,how to survive,how to heal,etc.Without the past we would never progress.



You are clearly not using the same definition of 'ancestors' here as in your next statement:

Quote:

People can trace their lineage to find out.I honestly dont know anyone who even claims to be a heritage their not.



Which is it, is culture limited to only those whose blood you share? Or is it broader than that?

Quote:

If a white person says "I am a tribesman of the masai tribe in africa."Are you really going to believe them?There are definitely cultural boundaries and definitions.



There is a difference between belonging to a tribe (i.e. being born into a village) and belonging to a culture. To make your analogy more appropriate, I suggest they say "I'm a member of the Masai culture".
My answer: "Why the heck not?". Have you never seen an African American wearing ehtnic clothes? Wouldn't they be abusing that culture, according to your definition, if they weren't born and raised in Africa, but in America instead? Would they be abusing their own culture or another?


--------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


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OfflineUnenlightenedOne
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Registered: 08/12/04
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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: Alan Stone]
    #3798875 - 02/18/05 04:28 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Well, that's not up to him. If you're claiming borrowing ideas is bad, YOU should the provide the reasons WHY NOT, instead of requiring Fireworks to prove his freedom of mind. Don't join the Thought Police without having decent arguments to prevent us from comitting Thought Crime.





You didnt understand the post obviously.He said cultural distinction is bad.Im saying that cultural distinction is good.I asked why he thinks it is bad.I am asking him to clarify his opinion so that I may understand the reasoning behind it.

By the way,taking WITHOUT permission isnt called borrowing.Its called stealing.Taking WITH permission is called borrowing.Cultural distinction allows us to carry on our ancestors tradition and honor our ancestors appropiately.Our ancestors built our culture in a unique manner and developed beliefs,medicines,habits,food,etc distinctly and separately from other cultures.They were proud of it and we should be too.These days everyone is throwing thousands of years of honor and tradition and pride and work out the window.They pursue different things at a whim and its merely entertainment to them.They never really grasp it appropiately and never really do it justice.They lack the cultural roots that gave rise to such a belief system and culture.They lack the cultural understanding and respect.

Without cultural distinction religion becomes meaningless and devolves into one or several mass religions with little basis and meaning.Native foodstuffs and medicines are forgotten in favor of synthetic meds and highly processed foods.Even now we give up walking and boating (as regular transportation) to become unhealthy out of shape and out of touch with the earth.Many great things have been lost and will continue to because people do not respect cultures and their ancestors.

Quote:

Many Asian cultures also crave technology and money. Thus, it is no trait unique to our culture - if indeed there is such a thing.





Some developed cultures share some traits yes.But do asian consumers want the same products and things we do?No.Do they want the same things?No.Do they have the same urges and desires?No.Urges and desires vary with cultures.Are americans more greedy than other cultures?Probably.lmao.The basic desires and urges are obviously the same.Food,water,shelter,clothing, and reproduction are fairly universal.However, what use would a native masai have for a computer just as what would the man who lives in modern society need a spear for?

Quote:

I've never seen a Western buddhist who painted his skin yellow, who put on orange robes, who started talking Tibetan and who squatted a buddhist temple in the Himalayas. Have you?





Aside from the painting the skin part and himalayas part, yes.Often enough.But regardless its the fact that its taken out of the cultural setting away for tibetan culture and medicine and lore which is a huge part of tibetan buddhism and its tore down into a concept with books teaching you how to be a tibetan buddhist.Its horrible.And to boot right now wrist malas are fashionable among some parts of the west.Many tibetan items of religious significance is sold as decor towesterners who are always wnating something new to be enamored with.

Quote:

Oh. Too bad they're dead, and too bad they left no written testimonies.






Our ancestors have left much lore and writings to a good distance back for the majority of cultures.Some cultures have oral tradition instead of writing.

Quote:

You are clearly not using the same definition of 'ancestors' here as in your next statement:






Ancestors are people that came before you in your lineage and/or cultural group.It can be used to define either.Dont get caught up on technicalities.

Quote:

Which is it, is culture limited to only those whose blood you share? Or is it broader than that?





Both.Your culture comes from your family and the cultural group they came from.Family is important in culture as well as the rest of your cultural group.Some people belong to two distinct but similar cultural groups because one parent comes from a different culture than the other one and then the parents decide which traditions to teach from which cultures.

Quote:

There is a difference between belonging to a tribe (i.e. being born into a village) and belonging to a culture. To make your analogy more appropriate, I suggest they say "I'm a member of the Masai culture".
My answer: "Why the heck not?". Have you never seen an African American wearing ehtnic clothes? Wouldn't they be abusing that culture, according to your definition, if they weren't born and raised in Africa, but in America instead?





There is no such thing as american culture."American culture" is a mixture of every individual culture.There is no american religion.lmao.There is no american food either.THe only americans are the ones that are native to america.I may be born in america but Im european all the way.My ancestors are from europe.I am mostly german.Now being born in america doesnt make my ancestors from america nor does it change anything.

African americans have african heritage and culture.They have strong cultural ties to africa.Although they also developed a culture of their own in the days of slave trading.I dont see how they would be abusing any culture.They remain strong within their culture and they are not going around taking from other cultures in general.


--------------------
Do not desire to reach a high level.Rather work without thought of reward to iron out flaws and impurities in one's self for the sake of one's self.When one has done this one needs not to desire anymore. http://www.lifeforceonlinestore.com/yc/


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OfflineWildRunner
Obey little,Resist much

Registered: 02/13/05
Posts: 286
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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3799156 - 02/18/05 05:32 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Has anyone here read any of Daniel Quinns books? Cause I feel that I cant use the term 'culture' with people that havent read his books.
He claims there are really only two cultures. The Takers, and the Leavers. Leavers are people that have been around for a few million years, and are still around today; what most people would call out of ignorance, primitive. And the Takes, our people, east and west that have been around 10 or 12 thousand years. We are all by Quinns defination, Takers.


--------------------
If you dont know where you're going, any road will take you there.


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Offlinemidway
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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: WildRunner]
    #3799175 - 02/18/05 05:38 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Its probably because eastern philosophies are geared more toward self improvement and self control, rather than simply belief or faith. Thats what makes them intelligent persuits and beneficial to mankind.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3799381 - 02/18/05 06:25 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

UnenlightenedOne said:
:rolleyes: Correct.YOU see little to not difference.I see a great difference.You are being quite silly.There is a huge difference between language and exploiting and stealing a culture/philosophy/religion and cheapening it/mocking it.Why is cultural distinction harmful?Because you want to take from other cultures/religions and it would impede you?




In your eyes, it is stealing a culture/religion/philosophy and cheaping or mocking it, but to those who partake in what you describe, are they intentionally setting out to cheapen and mock it? Perhaps they aren't going about learning and practicing said culture or religion as you feel they should, but the very fact that they are interested in doing so opens them up to the possibillity of learning and practicing said culture or religion in a manner that you feel is appropriate. I do not see the benefit of emotionally reacting to other people's suspossed "ignorance", as you describe it.  :confused:

Also, I did not say that cultural distinction itself is harmful, but that the copyright protection of held cultural distinctions is seperating, and the subsequent seperations that result from that are harmful. To say cultural distinction is seperating is obviously true, implied by the very definition of distinction. :grin: When one sets a list of requirements that need to be fufilled in order to be privledged to ideas and practices, especially when pertaining to culture and ancestrage, one naturally excludes members of other races and origins to partake, which has a whole list of negative consequences.

Quote:


Again youre beign quite silly and irrational.There is a difference between interest and stealing a culture/religion.Anyone who steals a culture/religion isnt a very nice or positive person to begin with.They never take it serious enough and they end up making a mockery of the culture/religion.Most cultures are very opposed to having their culture/religion taken on by outsiders who usually make a joke of it and give it a bad name.




The difference between interest and stealing a culture or religion is not existing in the unassuming minds who do not understand said culture or religion in what some pratictioners consider the proper context, but rather those pratictioners who feel they understand and practice said culture or religion in the proper context. I do not honestly see any person setting out with the firm intention of "stealing another's religion or culture", all I see is an interest in another's religion or culture without the "proper" understanding and intention to practice it as some practitioners feel is necessary.

I would surmise that true followers of a particular culture or religion would not let their pride and also their fear of losing their culture or religion interfere with the propagation of the understanding that their culture or religion promotes.

Quote:


Ok now what if someone took that song  sang it very poorly and called it their own.What if they also gave it a bad name and made a mockery of it while giving it a different interpretation.Id imagine youd not be very pleased at all.




People are free to act as they wish. Their song would indeed be different than my original creation, and although the fact that they claim it as their own would create some confusion, my original song still exists exactly as I created it, still there for others to listen to. I cannot control how others act, nor is it beneficial for me to take offense by their actions.

Quote:


Dont be a jackass,no matter what setting humans live in one is never free of boundaries even in anarchy.In anarchy the boundaries are merely set by the stronger.




Why resort to name-calling?  :confused:

Quote:


Now what if I just dressed up like you,started living in your house and took the same name you had.Now what if I assumed your life everyday.What if I mimicked you although very poorly and started giving you a bad name because of my actions and lack of understanding of what its like to be you.Id imagine youd be very irritated and upset.Especially if I tried to take everything.Cultural theft is no different just much worse.




Am I to conduct myself in a different manner because someone else is creating confusion as to what others think of me by doing a "poor imitation" of mimicking myself? There is a difference between the ideas that exist in my mind and that are expressed by me, and ideas existing in others minds and expressed by them. My ideas and my expressions still exist in their own right, exactly as intended. People are naturally going to understand things in their own perspective and from a different context than what others intend. Are you suggesting that we do not express our cultural, religious, and philosophical ideas so that this is avoided? If it is not expressed, nothing is gained from it by others, even if some will misunderstand when it is expressed. :wink:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflinePed
Interested In Your Brain
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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: fireworks_god]
    #3799853 - 02/18/05 07:52 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

>> Has anyone here read any of Daniel Quinns books? Cause I feel that I cant use the term 'culture' with people that havent read his books.
He claims there are really only two cultures. The Takers, and the Leavers. Leavers are people that have been around for a few million years, and are still around today; what most people would call out of ignorance, primitive. And the Takes, our people, east and west that have been around 10 or 12 thousand years. We are all by Quinns defination, Takers.


Nice to meet you, B.  :smile: 

I've read Ishmael and The Story of B.  They were excellent, compelling books.  I had some disagreements with the thesis in The Story of B ("twins of the same birth"?  "Religon = Taker"?) but overall it was a fantastic read.


--------------------


:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3799992 - 02/18/05 08:17 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

your basic premise does not make sense. all cultures are the result of cultural diffusion. why stop the process now?


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Invisibletak
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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: infidelGOD]
    #3800068 - 02/18/05 08:35 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

This is why I have patented my new religion.


--------------------
The DJ's took pills to stay awake and play for seven days.


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OfflineZekebomb
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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3800825 - 02/18/05 11:00 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

UnenlightenedOne said:
"Sharing" in a culture that likely doesnt want others to "share" in their cultural identity is cultural theft.



I see two circumstances under which you would feel the need to say this: 1) you belong to some 'culture' which you feel is being appropriated, or 'stolen', and it chaps your ass for some reason; or 2) you used to be someone who 'stole' bits of other cultures, and now you renounce your ways. am I far off?

Quote:

I'd be absolutely horrified if someone came in and took my beliefs and my culture and started claiming to be part ofmy culture and didnt take it serious and knew little accurate information about my culture.Id be even more horrified if my religious items became nothing more than decor and novelty.Its very disrespectful.



see, to me there's a difference between 'taking' or 'stealing' and 'copying' or 'emulating'. sure, if I bust into your grass hut and physically remove your altar and religious trappings, that's pretty bad shit. but if I take a picture of your altar and then sit down and carve all the stuff out of wood, because I'm moved to so do for some reason, then who cares? I'm not harming you in any way.

Quote:

While learning about other cultures is very good,it is better yet to leave those cultures to those who built them.



you mean, "While learning about other cultures is very good, it is better yet to not learn about them unless you descend from those who built them." or am I wrong?

Quote:

It'd be like someone just coming and stealing what you and your ancestors have built through hard work for thousands of years and claiming it as their own even though they have done nothing themselves to contribute to it.



I disagree. like I said above, there's a big, huge, yawning difference between 'stealing' and 'emulating'.

and of course I expect the 'stealers' would have nothing to actually contribute to it, and if they made any changes it would be not contribution but sacrelige. yes?

Quote:

There is a difference between respecting cultures and stealing them and you cannot take another culture while respecting it.Please do not steal another culture and claim it as your own.



here we are again. a difference between respecting cultures and stealing them. isn't it a sign of respect to want to emulate something? I mean isn't that the biggest sign of respect possible?

I'd like you to define what you mean by 'stealing' exactly. obviously it's something other than physically removing stuff, right? because we'd all agree that that would be bad, I'm sure. there'd be no discussion if you were simply telling us "physically removing cultural artifacts from the descendants of their original makers is wrong." so you're actually saying something else. but what?


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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3803502 - 02/19/05 04:17 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

I may be born in america but Im european all the way.My ancestors are from europe.I am mostly german.Now being born in america doesnt make my ancestors from america nor does it change anything.



My point is the African-American isn't immersed in the culture anymore. And you're probably not with German culture in the same way some of my German friends are, who speak German and live in Germany.

Quote:

African americans have african heritage and culture.They have strong cultural ties to africa.Although they also developed a culture of their own in the days of slave trading.



My point is they don't. They may have African genes, but they don't know the first thing about life in Africa unless they research it. They don't speak any African language unless they take lessons, they don't know anything about its history if they don't research it, etc. In that sense, they would be stealing from a culture they weren't raised in, regardless of whether they say they belong to the culture or not.
They do, however, know everything about being a black person in America. They know about the ongoing opression, they know about slavery, etc. They were raised in english, they were influenced by American media, they meet Americans every day.

Some of my distant relatives live in America. I forgot where exactly, because I've never seen them.
They came over to visit once, but my parents wouldn't allow me to skip school to meet them.
Anyway, they wanted to follow their roots and visit Belgium. I tell you, they knew nothing about Belgian culture. They expected to come home to the Belgium their grandfather's father had left, but, of course, they didn't find it. If all Americans know as much about their 'culture', then they clearly claim to be something they're not. Big if, though.


--------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


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OfflineUnenlightenedOne
Two Spirited

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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: fireworks_god]
    #3805163 - 02/20/05 12:52 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

In your eyes, it is stealing a culture/religion/philosophy and cheaping or mocking it, but to those who partake in what you describe, are they intentionally setting out to cheapen and mock it? Perhaps they aren't going about learning and practicing said culture or religion as you feel they should, but the very fact that they are interested in doing so opens them up to the possibillity of learning and practicing said culture or religion in a manner that you feel is appropriate.




Intention matters not.It is not what they intend to do but the effect it has and the problems theyre causing that matters.There is a fine line between learning about a culture and stealing from it.While one should learn about others they should not interfere nor take from said culture.

Quote:

The difference between interest and stealing a culture or religion is not existing in the unassuming minds who do not understand said culture or religion in what some pratictioners consider the proper context, but rather those pratictioners who feel they understand and practice said culture or religion in the proper context. I do not honestly see any person setting out with the firm intention of "stealing another's religion or culture", all I see is an interest in another's religion or culture without the "proper" understanding and intention to practice it as some practitioners feel is necessary.





Again the intentions of people doesnt matter.Its the damage they cause and effects they have.Also it is plainly stealing.


Quote:

I would surmise that true followers of a particular culture or religion would not let their pride and also their fear of losing their culture or religion interfere with the propagation of the understanding that their culture or religion promotes.





Again a there is a fine line between learning about a culture and stealing from it.

Quote:

People are free to act as they wish. Their song would indeed be different than my original creation, and although the fact that they claim it as their own would create some confusion, my original song still exists exactly as I created it, still there for others to listen to. I cannot control how others act, nor is it beneficial for me to take offense by their actions.





Im quite sure your words here do not reflect your true actions and thoughts.Everyone gets offended.Most of them quite easily.Especially when people mock or imitate them even with good intentions.Im quite sure you're not going to tell me you're in some way enlightened.


Quote:

Why resort to name-calling?




If you're going to make sarcastic ignorant comments (as you did prior) then I may choose to be less pleasant in response to that.

Quote:

Am I to conduct myself in a different manner because someone else is creating confusion as to what others think of me by doing a "poor imitation" of mimicking myself? There is a difference between the ideas that exist in my mind and that are expressed by me, and ideas existing in others minds and expressed by them. My ideas and my expressions still exist in their own right, exactly as intended. People are naturally going to understand things in their own perspective and from a different context than what others intend.




Thats a load of crap excusing people to steal from cultures.

Quote:

Are you suggesting that we do not express our cultural, religious, and philosophical ideas so that this is avoided? If it is not expressed, nothing is gained from it by others, even if some will misunderstand when it is expressed.





Are you suggesting that you're going to continue to make sarcastic ignorant comments?Dont be a jackass.You know precisely what I mean.


--------------------
Do not desire to reach a high level.Rather work without thought of reward to iron out flaws and impurities in one's self for the sake of one's self.When one has done this one needs not to desire anymore. http://www.lifeforceonlinestore.com/yc/


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OfflineUnenlightenedOne
Two Spirited

Registered: 08/12/04
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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: infidelGOD]
    #3805177 - 02/20/05 12:56 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

your basic premise does not make sense. all cultures are the result of cultural diffusion. why stop the process now?




To preserve the uniqueness of every culture and to prevent us from losing any of it.Without cultural distinction we would not have many of the substances we enjoy today.If we do not preserve other cultures we may never discover more of the substances and medicines used by dying cultures.If those cultures die,we will have no records left of their medicines and substances.

If we do notpreserve individual cultural identities eventually we will lose a wealth of rich cultural tradition and practices as well as a wealth of information.There is somuch to lose by allowing all cultures to melt into one.


--------------------
Do not desire to reach a high level.Rather work without thought of reward to iron out flaws and impurities in one's self for the sake of one's self.When one has done this one needs not to desire anymore. http://www.lifeforceonlinestore.com/yc/


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OfflineUnenlightenedOne
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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: Alan Stone]
    #3805235 - 02/20/05 01:13 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

My point is the African-American isn't immersed in the culture anymore.




Not perfectly.However they maintain and enjoy very rich african culture and maintain much of the traditions and practices.As much as possible without living in africa.


Quote:

And you're probably not with German culture in the same way some of my German friends are, who speak German and live in Germany.





Not quite in the same way no.However I do maintain the traditions and culture as best as possible without living in germany.Remove anyone from their homeland and the expression of their culture will lack something.Its inevitable.But they are not abusing or harming their culture in any way.

Quote:

My point is they don't. They may have African genes, but they don't know the first thing about life in Africa unless they research it. They don't speak any African language unless they take lessons, they don't know anything about its history if they don't research it, etc. In that sense, they would be stealing from a culture they weren't raised in, regardless of whether they say they belong to the culture or not.





Its still their culture raised in their homeland or not.They still maintain the holidays and religion.They still practice it the same.They merely dont live in africa.Nothing else has changed.

By your logic most religions practiced would be stolen because those cities and places do not exist anymore and/or the people do not live in that country.The daily life of the times the religions were created in has long been gone as well.

Quote:

They do, however, know everything about being a black person in America. They know about the ongoing opression, they know about slavery, etc. They were raised in english, they were influenced by American media, they meet Americans every day.





This would mean by your logic that anyone not living the way their ancestors did would then be stealing their culture.Thats silly.That would then mean by the same logic that todays "american" culture will be considered stolen tomorrow.Computers are a major part of todays culture.Now if they become obsolete, does this mean that the whople culture is then stolen because tomorrow's generation may not use computers.

Quote:

Some of my distant relatives live in America. I forgot where exactly, because I've never seen them.
They came over to visit once, but my parents wouldn't allow me to skip school to meet them.
Anyway, they wanted to follow their roots and visit Belgium. I tell you, they knew nothing about Belgian culture. They expected to come home to the Belgium their grandfather's father had left, but, of course, they didn't find it. If all Americans know as much about their 'culture', then they clearly claim to be something they're not. Big if, though.




Yes big if.A lot of americans simply dont care about their culture and/or roots.Todays america discards anything they feel is antiquated which is basically anything not in their generation these days.Look at where this lack of culture has gotten us.Most young people today have no respect for most things.Especially not elders,ancestors and especially not entheogens.Im speaking of a generation in general so dont say "well so and so is X number of years and they are respectful of such and such."

This lack of respect today comes from lack of roots and lack of understanding of the culture and history behind such things.If they knew more about these things they might have a bit more respect for them.


--------------------
Do not desire to reach a high level.Rather work without thought of reward to iron out flaws and impurities in one's self for the sake of one's self.When one has done this one needs not to desire anymore. http://www.lifeforceonlinestore.com/yc/


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OfflineZekebomb
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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3805703 - 02/20/05 03:33 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Remove anyone from their homeland and the expression of their culture will lack something.Its inevitable.

that is incorrect. remove anyone from their homeland and the expression of their culture will change. the value judgement belongs only to you.

you haven't really explained what you think 'cultural theft' is. nor 'culture'. I'd wager a hefty bet that we're all working with different definitions, and this is a major cause of dissent in this thread. I'll quote myself, only to save myself some work: I'd like you to define what you mean by 'stealing' exactly. obviously it's something other than physically removing stuff, right? because we'd all agree that that would be bad, I'm sure. there'd be no discussion if you were simply telling us "physically removing cultural artifacts from the descendants of their original makers is wrong." so you're actually saying something else. but what?


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3806206 - 02/20/05 11:29 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

UnenlightenedOne said:
Intention matters not.It is not what they intend to do but the effect it has and the problems theyre causing that matters.There is a fine line between learning about a culture and stealing from it.While one should learn about others they should not interfere nor take from said culture.




Intention matters in the respect that it points towards a genuine interest in pursuing the particular culture, religion, or philosophy, despite what some declare is an improper way of learning or practicing said culture, religion, or philosophy.

How does one "steal" from a culture, religion, or philosophy? How does anyone steal an idea, which is all that these things are? Regardless of how you feel, there is quite actually no law and no enforcement when it comes to practicing a religion, culture, or philosophy. I'm surprised that one would rather hold a negative view of people with genuine interest in their culture or religion instead of embracing the oppurtunity to teach them about it.

Quote:

Again the intentions of people doesnt matter.Its the damage they cause and effects they have.Also it is plainly stealing.




It is not "plainly stealing". You seem to hold a rigid viewpoint of culture as an unchanging, set in stone, objectively existing thing, but in reality, it is simply behavior patterns. I'm amazed by the thought of copywritten behavior patterns and the thought of stealing behavior patterns. :shocked:

Culture has continously evolved as the people living within a culture have changed, as time passes and new experiences come into being. There is no identifiable "culture" and no possibility of stealing from one.


Quote:


Again a there is a fine line between learning about a culture and stealing from it.




Draw for me this fine line, my friend. The line doesn't seem to exist in those who set out to learn about a culture, religion, or philosophy, it seems to exist in the minds of others who perceive "damage" resulting from the aforementioned people setting out to learn and practice.

Who has the authority to draw that line, and why do they have that authority?

Quote:


Im quite sure your words here do not reflect your true actions and thoughts.Everyone gets offended.Most of them quite easily.Especially when people mock or imitate them even with good intentions.Im quite sure you're not going to tell me you're in some way enlightened.




I am not to claim I am Enlightened as I do not know what that would mean. However, while I do have bad days, I generally do not take offense by others actions, especially over trivial matters, and I certainly strive to not punish myself with negative emotions because of circumstances out of my control, as it would definitely be insane to do so, regardless of how much you insist my words do not reflect my true actions and thoughts (keeping in mind that you have no knowledge of me to base that on anyways).


Quote:

If you're going to make sarcastic ignorant comments (as you did prior) then I may choose to be less pleasant in response to that.




Calling me a jackass does not benefit our discussion in any way, nor does labeling my comments as sarcastic or ignorant. Resorting to name-calling is quite honestly a violation of the rules for this forum, which you are subject to by posting here. It shows absolutely no respect, not to mention the fact that it is technically flaming (both violations of the rules). You also threatened to act in a similar, more severe manner.

I'd recommend actually responding to my thoughts relevant to this discussion instead of resorting to cheap-shot tatics that contribute nothing to the ideas being expressed and discussed. :thumbup:

Quote:


Thats a load of crap excusing people to steal from cultures.




This is an example of you labeling my response in a derogative manner instead of actually replying to it. :wink:

Quote:

Are you suggesting that you're going to continue to make sarcastic ignorant comments?Dont be a jackass.You know precisely what I mean.




:rolleyes: I'll notify a moderator for you. :wink:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3808245 - 02/20/05 09:24 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

To preserve the uniqueness of every culture and to prevent us from losing any of it.Without cultural distinction we would not have many of the substances we enjoy today.If we do not preserve other cultures we may never discover more of the substances and medicines used by dying cultures.If those cultures die,we will have no records left of their medicines and substances.




what culture are you trying to preserve? I guarantee you that whatever culture you're trying to "preserve" is itself a result of cultural mixing. there are no pure cultures. and culture isn't static. it is constantly changing. what you are proposing is against the natural evolution of human society.


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Invisiblemoog
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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3808326 - 02/20/05 09:45 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Information and ideas are free to exchange. The barriers between cultures that you see are created only in your mind. You want to preserve cultures? This will get you nowhere. Ideas need to evolve and change and progress. When wisdom and ideas are put in static isloation they turn stale, lifeless. That is the nature of death, and ideas die too. To keep them alive we must keep them moving, between all people whoever they are and wherever they're from. Let's not preserve the status quo of separation. Let's merge cultures and let them transform into something new. Movement and change is the nature of life.


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3811133 - 02/21/05 03:24 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Please UnenlightenedOne stop this kind of confrontation, no more name calling BS, and read the rules of this forum.
This is just a warning, you just need to be more respectful. I'm sure you'll be paying more attention next time ....

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


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OfflineUniversally
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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: moog]
    #22822713 - 01/25/16 03:23 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

I recommend the Universal poetry of George E Bourne www.abookoflife.org

A fresh and beautiful look at God's creation - from finally an Eastern and Western approach.

70 books which I believe are free to download, and share!!

The way for the world to move forward is in Love, Harmony and Beauty - with tolerance and understanding of Western and Eastern principals.

Share these books out. We need it!


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OfflineUniversally
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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: Universally]
    #22822824 - 01/25/16 03:49 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)



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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #22837522 - 01/29/16 09:21 AM (5 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
No arguement from me on this score. Madonna-Esther is a pet peeve. Down here in Miami, I've had middle school kids who belong to the Kabbalah Center and Madonna has shown up there to 'wow' the members, I suppose. Here is an individual whom I intuitively have an aversion to, despite the fact that I know that in the flesh I could just as easily be seduced by her charms if she wanted to appear charming. Perhaps that's one of the reasons I don't like her.

She has adorned her ears with crucifix earings (the ears being peripheral to the 'mandala' of the body - the crucific should be worn over the Heart to represent one's 'Center' not as a mere ornament at the periphery of the physical self). She has offended Hindus with her henna work and ingenuineness. I personally believe that her take on Kabbalism is to 'storm Heaven,' and circumvent her Gentile awareness of Christ by appropriating a mystical Truth originating with esoteric Jews. This may have philosophical validity for Jews themselves (of which I am one by birth) whose religious traditions pre-exist the historical Jesus, but it is a profanation inasmuch as I believe that Madonna thinks that she can appropriate Transcendental Truth while yet being the multi-millionaire 'bi**h' diva who now portrays herself as maternal, while disavowing her life of excess.

In a nutshell, she is like the Biblical Whore of Babylon (much more than anyone Aleister Crowley knew of), adorning her body, speech and mind with the Sacred traditions of humankind. I don't care a bit what the media or the cultic Kabbalah Center Jews say about her, she is a powerful example of demonic manifestation to me - worldliness that has grown bored. Madonna-Esther (Esther, from the Old Testament Queen - wife of King Ahashuerus who single-handedly prevented an ancient slaughter of the Jews and had the ancient Hitler-character named Hamen, hanged. Self-proclaimed Jewish savioress Madonna-Esther). She reminds me of a rich, spoiled Jewish acquaintance of mine in college who was so bored that his only social thrill was to try to seduce his friends' girlfriends. He seemed to be in love with his mother and would show her photo, and his wealthy parents had a larger-than-life winged fallen angel statue in their backyard. He even managed to get me to lie for him once, to get free concert tickets (which didn't work, but more importantly, he got me to go against my moral nature). At our last conversation, he asked me point blank: "Do you think I bring the demons?" I answered, "Yes, I believe that you do." He walked away, I never saw him again. Madonna reminds me of that guy in spiritual ways - like the fallen angels called Watchers in the books of Enoch who seduce humans.

But I digress. We can borrow, respectfully, from the Wisdom that rises like cream, to the top of other religions and philosophies - the best of the best, while maintaining the integrity of who we are. Humility is the important stance to assume, and humility precludes any type of arrogance, like assuming an exalted name or title. Who does not see this? How is it that so many people are so blind or asleep in the real matrix?





And you've got me pegged as a J type? 

I think that Madonna had a Catholic background and was traumatized by original sin, that sin was some thing that was a part of her and would always be with her for the rest of her life,  which scared her and a struck a feeling of guilt in her all the time.  I think she chose the name Madonna to rebel, she was going to be a sexually liberated being and was no longer gonna take shit from the sick and twisted :pedobear: religion that fucked with her self confidence and maybe finally give 'em a little hell back in exchange.

Anyways, I remember being 9yo and going to the roller rink and listening to/watching music videos of Madonna singing Like a Prayer, w/ lyrics like "When you call my name, It's like a little prayer, I'm down on my knees, I wanna take you there."  Seemed to me she was saying pleasing her man was like pleasing God and she loved giving head, she loved pleasure others (you're always the first to receive pleasure when you really do imho, as your love was the source) and no guilt.....

As for the Kaballah, how often do we see Scott Pelley mention the Kaballah?  Never.  So basically she introduced hundreds of million Americans to even thinking the word Kaballah, it's like Quinten Tarantino turning the world on to the gab ball in Pulp Fiction.  In no way was Madonna even cable of turning the Kaballah into a fad.  Yanno, Oprah interviewed both Ram Dass and Eckahrt Tolle, being what, the wealthiest woman in America (believe she owns her own island?)  Do I really give a shit about  Madonna or Oprah? Not really, no.... but I wish them the best on their path towards Enlightenment.  And they did accelerate information to people whose lives are so sad that they spend it watching daytime programming or watch shows about idolizing celebrities :shrug:.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #22837989 - 01/29/16 12:33 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

UnenlightenedOne said:
Why does there seem to be such an obsession here with eastern philosophies?

Seek out your ancestors instead of another person's ancestors.

Your own heritage will be much more relevantto your culture/way of life than another heritage which was developed under another culture and way of life.In "translation" much meaning is lost.

One should not really intrude upon another's heritage.It is akin to stealing and many people feel that way.Often times it is also not respected properly and taken lightly.

Does anyone elsehave an opinion about this?




Yes, I have an opinion if you're asking. You are being very provincial, parochial, and exclusivist - the opposite of global and universal. You are asking that people identify with a limited socio-cultural role instead of seeking a philosophical system that facilitates the expansion of one's identity to cosmic proportions. I do not hail from a tradition of ancestor-worship, but if I did, I would have taken leave of it long ago. In fact, I DID take leave of the cultural religion of my parents - Reform Judaism. I rebelled against the dry cultural Judaism that neither of my parents were very much into. My mother remained an atheist it seems til her death, my father was a Freemason and was more interested in living the myth of Hiram the Builder by helping to build a new synagogue in our home town (and receiving ego-enhancement from it). I rebelled by age 12, flunking my 3rd year of Hebrew school and was never a Bar Mitzvah (Son of the Blessings). That alienated me from my father for life.

Then, after changing my major from biology (pre-med in those days) to philosophy, I took catechism and Catholic baptism in my quest for spirituality. I had already taken a lot of acid, and had been studying/practicing Hindu and Buddhist yogas or a few years. I had visited several Hindu and Sufi teachers and some Catholic monks, inquiring about monastic life. I eventually took a two year Masters of Theological Studies degree at the United Methodist seminary at Drew University. I was a Jewish Christian more than a Messianic Jew. But then I went and wrote an essentially Tibetan Buddhist doctoral dissertation in the Department of Human Development of U. of MD for a Ph.D. degree. I returned to the study of Kabbalistic Judaism, and whereas I do light Shabbos (Sabbath) candles on Friday evenings at sundown, I am considered an apostate to Judaism by my adherence to the teachings attributed to Iesous in the New Testament, and I am considered to be heretical from a strictly Christian mainstream theology whether Catholic, Protestant or Orthodox. So I do not fit into anyone's tradition-bound cubby-hole, yet I live a as virtuous a life as a philosophically-oriented person can in the 21st century, informed by a plethora of religious and philosophical schools and traditions.

Psychologically, from a Jungian perspective, I am living a "symbolic life" and Individuating. It can definitely appear to be idiosyncratic because Individuation in the Jungian school runs parallel with the theories of Abraham Maslow with regard to Self-Actualization. In order to Self-Actualize oneself, one needs to transcend one's "Belongingness Needs" which are often manifested as being an obedient servant in some particular congregation and tradition, accepting the doctrines and dogmas without question as a sign of one's faith. Baloney! The mystics of every faith have been outsiders in a radical way. They left the fold through experiences which set them apart from the mainstream. Where it stands today, I have only awkward, idiosyncratic descriptions of my faith-stance, like Jewish-Christian Entheogenic Gnostic. Ridiculous. My faith is better left unarticulated to others because anyone who seeks to cubby-hole people are just going to dismiss me as a weirdo right from my description. Most people will assume something from my blue-gray eyes (and onetime blonde hair), or from my Jewish surname anyway. You know that word assume - when we assume, we make an ass out of u and me. :lol:


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #22839785 - 01/29/16 09:09 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

Damnnn...How long ago did I post that? I gave away a little book I used to own, The I Hate Madonna Handbook (I think). I had a bone or two to pick with her when I was studying certain Kabbalistic doctrines at the time, and I saw her as profaning them. I still do, but I have none of the emotion now that I had then. My friend Robert (whom I hope you meet one day) just saw Madonna last week and posted pics on facebook when she was in Miami. He loves her, and he knows how I used to feel (he doesn't joke with me about our different emotions regarding her because I no longer have such virulent feelings. Her famous presence is completely irrelevant to my small life. I have pretty much ataraxia/apatheia with regard to her. If I see something about her on my news feed, I pass it by the same as I would pass something to do with football or basketball. Meh. :shrug:

So, it was a judgement, but not necessarily indicative of the 'J' function, which is quick to make decisions (a plus), but which can be 'judgemental' (a deficiency). INTPs can be quick to judge when important principles are violated. Personally, I think she revels in an identification with a "Babe of the Abyss," 'A' (not THE) "Great Whore of Babylon." It would fit with her rebellion against Roman Catholicism. Her fame and fortune surely isn't due to Divine favor! :lol:


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #22840971 - 01/30/16 03:28 AM (5 years, 8 months ago)

Didn't notice somebody necro'd this thread, but I'm in full agreement with how irrelevant Madonna should be, she's just noise I don't even bother to tune in.  I forgive as much as possible and you just never know when somebody might  start to wake up, didn't happen to many of my great psychedelic heroes until they were middle aged so, afaik Madonna could be having a spiritual awakening at this very moment.


I've never been into the gay dance diva disco thing, so Robert and I don't share that one in common...  I don't actually understand what it would be like to experience that kind of fanaticism over anything,  saw many a teenage girl have her meltdown over when The Beatles landed, I don't understand sports fanaticism either.....


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #22841168 - 01/30/16 07:10 AM (5 years, 8 months ago)

I am gay but NEVER got obsessed with these tinny icons like Madonna and Kylie. they are utterly superficial. M's voice is...pathetic. Worse even than her acting and that's saying something. But see they--the Illuminati producers wid-de-moneyyy PR an image
Now I LOVED this diva and would get well into dancing to this lol



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Offlinedeezdelta
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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #22848913 - 02/01/16 02:38 AM (5 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

UnenlightenedOne said:
Why does there seem to be such an obsession here with eastern philosophies?

Seek out your ancestors instead of another person's ancestors.

Your own heritage will be much more relevantto your culture/way of life than another heritage which was developed under another culture and way of life.In "translation" much meaning is lost.

One should not really intrude upon another's heritage.It is akin to stealing and many people feel that way.Often times it is also not respected properly and taken lightly.

Does anyone elsehave an opinion about this?




I've got an opinion here. Why don't we all just assume that history as we know it is completely made up and has practically nothing to do with reality. After that lets all start creating our own philosophies and see what happens. Maybe Aristotle and Confucius were not so much men as they were concept's made up by the power structures of the Holy Roman Empire to keep people stupid. Who knows?? None of us thats who. Think about how many generations it might take a determined group of powerful people to completely change absolutely everything about the "facts" of ancient world history.


--------------------
Don't die tonight.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #22848985 - 02/01/16 03:21 AM (5 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

UnenlightenedOne said:
Why does there seem to be such an obsession here with eastern philosophies?

Seek out your ancestors instead of another person's ancestors.

Your own heritage will be much more relevantto your culture/way of life than another heritage which was developed under another culture and way of life.In "translation" much meaning is lost.

One should not really intrude upon another's heritage.It is akin to stealing and many people feel that way.Often times it is also not respected properly and taken lightly.

Does anyone elsehave an opinion about this?





Who cares about one's heritage?  It's better to follow your instincts imo. It's hard to compare Taoism and Christianity.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: deezdelta]
    #22849144 - 02/01/16 06:30 AM (5 years, 8 months ago)

I suspect at least Aristotle actually lived, but more interesting to me is critically looking at what they said, and he was typically patriarchal and misogynist. He believed men were active intelligence and women were monsters!

So what interests me is to be aware of this, because it connects the dots because there is influences between western philosophy and eastern philosophy, and you find that both had this downer on women and the natural world. For example 'Maya' by its very root 'Ma' is recognizing the feminine as being the natural world which they believed was a seductive trap pf the 'masculine spirit' which seeks release back to its 'spiritual home', and hence that is when in the ancient eastern Yogi practices the aim was to try and go beyond the senses, practicing 'one pointed awareness' and eyes closed not even being allowed/fearing to observe the forms of the natural world because of its reminiscent erotic shapes and seductive aura

So it is better to understand and become aware of this connection between east and western concepts because doing so undermines their mindcontrol over us. Of course this doesn't mean having to have a library of books, but to get the overall gist


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: Icelander] * 1
    #22849289 - 02/01/16 08:00 AM (5 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:

Who cares about one's heritage?  It's better to follow your instincts imo. It's hard to compare Taoism and Christianity.





I agree fully... First I wasn't raised with religion, I was a kid from the '80s who played video games at the arcade and listened to music.  My mother was a Catholic and had nothing but negative memories first by how mean the nuns were in her school, how they slapped her hands with a ruler when she played the wrong notes on the piano and was always anxious when having to perform and secondly snubbed when she divorced my irresponsible, narcissistic father.  Why would I want any part of that?

Personally I've found mostly Hindu exercises work for me, including pranayama, mantra, and asanas.  With a mix of psychedelics and these practices I started getting results that I was looking for.  That doesn't mean that I buy into all of the belief system.    The idea that beings are lined up waiting on the astral plane and the number one thing they want to be is human so they can do the work they need to do to go "Home", and that we need more mothers to produce so that these beings on another plane can get free is just dreadful to me.  Any spiritual tradition reveals some truths and hides others imho, and it's up to you to suss out what is useful and what is :poop:.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: zzripz]
    #22849423 - 02/01/16 09:28 AM (5 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
I am gay but NEVER got obsessed with these tinny icons like Madonna and Kylie. they are utterly superficial. M's voice is...pathetic. Worse even than her acting and that's saying something. But see they--the Illuminati producers wid-de-moneyyy PR an image
Now I LOVED this diva and would get well into dancing to this lol






Ok, I take that back, once I was on some nice, clean MDMA and was listening to some Donna Summer "I Feel Love" and it was spacey, her voice, the lyrics, and her body moved to the music in a way that blew me away,


Left my heart in San Francisco, listening to some motherfuckin' disco :lol:.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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Offlinentcohen
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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: deezdelta]
    #22942696 - 02/24/16 11:27 PM (5 years, 7 months ago)

Afterall, Socrates may very well have been a character Plato made up for his writings.


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InvisibleLakefingers

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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: ntcohen]
    #22943447 - 02/25/16 05:18 AM (5 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

ntcohen said:
Afterall, Socrates may very well have been a character Plato made up for his writings.




There are reliable, contemporary accounts of Socrates. For instance, he is mentioned in plays, in the writings of friends, in the writings of people who were not under Plato's influence and there are coeval statues of him.

Besides, whether he existed is not the point. Was this man the Socrates in Plato? No. In fact, the question doesn't even matter, because the Socrates in Plato's writings is an obvious literary construction. Whether some of his traits come from the real Socrates is another issue, and it doesn't change the argumentation and art of Plato's dialogs.


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InvisibleLakefingers

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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: zzripz]
    #22943460 - 02/25/16 05:33 AM (5 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

CosmicJoke said:
I agree fully... First I wasn't raised with religion, I was a kid from the '80s who played video games at the arcade and listened to music.  My mother was a Catholic and had nothing but negative memories first by how mean the nuns were in her school, how they slapped her hands with a ruler when she played the wrong notes on the piano and was always anxious when having to perform and secondly snubbed when she divorced my irresponsible, narcissistic father.  Why would I want any part of that?

Personally I've found mostly Hindu exercises work for me, including pranayama, mantra, and asanas.  With a mix of psychedelics and these practices I started getting results that I was looking for.  That doesn't mean that I buy into all of the belief system.    The idea that beings are lined up waiting on the astral plane and the number one thing they want to be is human so they can do the work they need to do to go "Home", and that we need more mothers to produce so that these beings on another plane can get free is just dreadful to me.  Any spiritual tradition reveals some truths and hides others imho, and it's up to you to suss out what is useful and what is :poop:.




Both in childhood and adulthood I've noticed that many parents have very negative views of schooling, other children, other parents, people in general. Frequent statements: "kids are horrible," "kids are mean," "people are mean," "people are cruel." Naturally, you have assume that the adults who say these things chose to express their own sadism by getting children to put through this, then by torturing their children with the reminder that they knew it would be like that all along.

And straightforward yoga works for me.

Quote:

zzripz said:
I suspect at least Aristotle actually lived, but more interesting to me is critically looking at what they said, and he was typically patriarchal and misogynist. He believed men were active intelligence and women were monsters!

So what interests me is to be aware of this, because it connects the dots because there is influences between western philosophy and eastern philosophy, and you find that both had this downer on women and the natural world. For example 'Maya' by its very root 'Ma' is recognizing the feminine as being the natural world which they believed was a seductive trap pf the 'masculine spirit' which seeks release back to its 'spiritual home', and hence that is when in the ancient eastern Yogi practices the aim was to try and go beyond the senses, practicing 'one pointed awareness' and eyes closed not even being allowed/fearing to observe the forms of the natural world because of its reminiscent erotic shapes and seductive aura

So it is better to understand and become aware of this connection between east and western concepts because doing so undermines their mindcontrol over us. Of course this doesn't mean having to have a library of books, but to get the overall gist




Who cares whether Aristotle and others fit into your twenty-first century political belief system? The people who are obsessed with being openminded and going beyond normal perception are extremely quick to fit everything into their modern liberalism. If you want to battle mental paradigms, that's where the real battle is at, not on astral planes.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: Lakefingers]
    #22943813 - 02/25/16 10:05 AM (5 years, 7 months ago)

If you want to battle mental paradigms, that's where the real battle is at, not on astral planes.



wow!:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: Lakefingers]
    #22945871 - 02/25/16 07:43 PM (5 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Lakefingers said:
Both in childhood and adulthood I've noticed that many parents have very negative views of schooling, other children, other parents, people in general. Frequent statements: "kids are horrible," "kids are mean," "people are mean," "people are cruel." Naturally, you have assume that the adults who say these things chose to express their own sadism by getting children to put through this, then by torturing their children with the reminder that they knew it would be like that all along.



Reminds me of this quote:

"Happiness is an imaginary condition, formerly attributed by the living to the dead, now usually attributed by adults to children, and by children to adults."
--Thomas Szasz


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #22946141 - 02/25/16 09:05 PM (5 years, 7 months ago)

Check out what it really means "to appear" in court.


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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OfflineAkeldama

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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: LunarEclipse] * 1
    #22953326 - 02/27/16 10:20 PM (5 years, 7 months ago)

I've been reading Joseph Campbell's The Masks of God series, Oriental Mythology (part 2 of 4), and just read about a Greek king, Menander, who apparently was a enthusiastic patron of Buddhism.  Story goes, he was touring the Orient with a troubled and challenging mind, searching for discussion and debate with any Indian sage who could instruct him on the matters of the mystical.

Luckily for him, the Buddhist monks of the Himalaya's caught wind of the king's search, and appealing to the gods, asked for one who could match the Greek in wisdom.  Mahasena, a god, took the form of a son of a Brahmin, and having spent his time learning the Law, when forth to the king Menander, and answered every question of the Greek king.

"And the king, with joy in his heart, pride suppressed, became aware of the virtue of the religion of the Buddhas, ceased to entertain doubt, tarried no longer in the jungle of heresy, and, like a poisonous cobra deprived of its fangs, craved pardon for his faults and admission to the faith, to be its true convert and supporter as long as life should last."

Since I'm on the subject of the Greeks, they adopted Indra as Zeus, Shiva as Dionysus, Krishna; Herakles.

Chinese Buddhism has been influenced by Iranian, Zoroastrian concepts, which, as you know, is typically and predominantly Western.

I guess the point is... people have been borrowing, researching, being humbled about, tolerating, accepting, adopting, sharing from the East for quite some time.  Not to mention that seemingly all beliefs seems to have stemmed from the One Great Tree of Eternal Life (Eastern) and Knowledge of Good and Evil (Western); the navel of this tree extending deep into the darkness of prehistory, dancing within the shamans, exposing itself majestically in the monuments of Egypt, climbing upwards along the trunk of the Near East, extending westward, eastward, adapting to local scenery...

Alas, I know what you're getting at.

Something like this, no?



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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #22954790 - 02/28/16 12:55 PM (5 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

UnenlightenedOne said:
Why does there seem to be such an obsession here with eastern philosophies?

Seek out your ancestors instead of another person's ancestors.

Your own heritage will be much more relevantto your culture/way of life than another heritage which was developed under another culture and way of life.In "translation" much meaning is lost.

One should not really intrude upon another's heritage.It is akin to stealing and many people feel that way.Often times it is also not respected properly and taken lightly.

Does anyone elsehave an opinion about this?





Yes it seems that many prominent hippies and musicians etc of the 50s and 60s looked to the East for answers, and away from the dreary West. Even I joined a Hare Krishna cult when I was 17, having dropped acid when 15, and was searching searching in post-LSD years
But in the cult I found that they were world-denying and had contempt for the physical body, hence when I joined their temple in freezing Edinburgh in January we all had to have cold showers at 3.am in the morning! And they didn't do cushions believing it was indulging the flesh. AND they were not into any mushrooms believing they were connected with graveyards and corruption

In fact in the literature psychedelics are dismissed in favour of meditation and mantras. that famous tale from 'Ram Dass' about his guru eating a mega dose of LSD and it having no effect implying that meditation is more powerful and 'you TOO can achieve it' if you get a guru
Even gurus who claimed they weren't gurus like J Krishnamurti made sure to use negative propaganda against psychedelics claiming they destroyed the brain---ect the gurus showing the same anti-psychedelic propaganda of mainstream media. This to me says that they like the Western power structure are all about social control
usually these gurus are men who have had positions in the culture and then decide to leave and go to the forest and meditate. There is no political activism. it is all about focussing on the self with the promise of all-the-time-bliss, and that somehow this action will affect a change. You hear the same thing with new agers 'you create your own reality'. IF you speak of injustice, and conspiracy, your accused of being too negative, and paranoid, and told to practice 'mindfullness'. This is all phony to me


Edited by zzripz (02/28/16 04:48 PM)


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: zzripz]
    #22955172 - 02/28/16 03:35 PM (5 years, 7 months ago)

Most of us made parallel discoveries. I dropped out of teacher-training in Transcendental Meditation® just weeks before having to fly to Switzerland to be initiated as a teacher by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. I was called up and threatened about not ever being allowed to continue once I'd quit, which was fine with me. I had been reading the New Testament and came across other new Christians who had been deceived by the TM® movement (including metaphysical sneakiness in the Sanskrit mantra which asked these lesser deities to enter one's Heart). There were those with libertine tendencies - life was a Lila Rasa - a dance and a game and we should play (particularly one chick who seemed to like me, and an older woman who tried to seduce me, but I belonged to the chaste and more ascetical side, which was unnatural for a 23 year old).


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: Akeldama]
    #22955183 - 02/28/16 03:40 PM (5 years, 7 months ago)

It's an academic question as to what extent Plato, and before him Pythagoras, may have been influenced by Brahmanical and/or Buddhist teachers. Alexander [the Great] got his ass kicked in his attempted conquest of India, and he brought back some knowledge. Take your time with The Masks of God, lest you choke. It's a big bite. I managed to read all four a couple of years ago right after I was forced into early retirement and needed to bury my head in something deep to avoid terrible anxiety.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineAkeldama

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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #22956840 - 02/28/16 10:59 PM (5 years, 7 months ago)

It is quite apparent that people have always been finding answers and worth from diving into other cultures and religious ideas. 

You chose a good series to delve into then! It's a job in itself, reading them.  The Masks of God are intense, but I have had a worthwhile experience with them thus far.  The amount of information can feel overwhelming but reading them slowly, with notes, helps a lot.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: Akeldama]
    #22957074 - 02/29/16 12:28 AM (5 years, 7 months ago)

Maybe it's time to re-read The Hero With a Thousand Faces. It's been about 30 years.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineAkeldama

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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #22958098 - 02/29/16 11:55 AM (5 years, 7 months ago)

Campbell's the perfect example as to why we should investigate and have a vigorous interest in philosophies other than our own.  What enthusiasm the guy had!


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Re: Eastern philosophies... [Re: Icelander]
    #22959616 - 02/29/16 09:09 PM (5 years, 7 months ago)

Who cares about one's heritage?  It's better to follow your instincts imo. It's hard to compare Taoism and Christianity.

Unless you realize that Christianity was originally referred to as The Way and its followers, were 'Followers of the Way,' and that Tao means 'Way,' or 'The Way.' I once upset a few seminarians with this equation and the professor simply told the programmed students "Don't worry, everyone doesn't have to be a high-flier." I posited a simple fact and I get relegated to someone with a particularly exalted intelligence so that the 'ordinary' Christians and 'ministers in training' don't have to pay the fact any mind. I can't say that I was particularly well-liked either. :shrug: A Taoist interpretation of Christianity and BAM! you get something like The Gospel of Thomas, with no gory-ass flogging-impalement death, no beleaguering with sin, just stuff like : "I am the light which is on them all. I am the All, and the All has gone out from me and the All has come back to me. Cleave the wood: I am there; lift the stone and thou shalt find me there!" - Saying 77.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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