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OfflineAdamist
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Is Science a form of Mythology?
    #1237640 - 01/21/03 04:14 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

you won't find this on the Discovery Channel...

Science is Mythology

Every story about the creation of the world is a myth-

including Big Bang cosmology

Scientists were the storytellers of the 20th century-

they taught divine faith in the value of measurement...

but once they discovered that they could not measure consciousness...

they found consciousness in everything

and because science could not explain itself-

a new mythology took its place...

it's a

CONSCIOUS UNIVERSE

everything is just the way you think it is!


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:


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Invisibledee_N_ae
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Re: Is Science a form of Mythology? [Re: Adamist]
    #1237672 - 01/21/03 04:27 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

5 shrooms for you and this thread.


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: Is Science a form of Mythology? [Re: dee_N_ae]
    #1237686 - 01/21/03 04:31 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Thanks, I actually didn't write that but got it from  http://www.2013.com/, one of the best websites I have ever been to.

PS- Your avatar is thought-provoking. :smile: 


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Invisibledee_N_ae
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Re: Is Science a form of Mythology? [Re: Adamist]
    #1237717 - 01/21/03 04:40 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

As was the excerpt!


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Invisiblecarbonhoots
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Re: Is Science a form of Mythology? [Re: Adamist]
    #1237726 - 01/21/03 04:43 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

I hope your right.

I'm sure were all in favor of everything being just the way we think it is.




--------------------
  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Is Science a form of Mythology? [Re: Adamist]
    #1237728 - 01/21/03 04:44 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

*yawn*


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: Is Science a form of Mythology? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1237740 - 01/21/03 04:47 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

You might find this difficult to believe, but... skepticism is boring.

No, seriously.

Consider this fact...

if you are a true skeptic, eventually you'll become skeptical of skepticism... of course, you'll have to prove it to yourself first -

what could be more boring than that?


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Is Science a form of Mythology? [Re: Adamist]
    #1237798 - 01/21/03 05:04 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I'M NOT A SKEPTIC!!!!
Being skeptical doesn't make one a skeptic.

Opposition only means that one does not subscribe to another's perspective... it is not a category in and of itself.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: Is Science a form of Mythology? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1237805 - 01/21/03 05:05 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

I'm sorry for judging you. :smile: 


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InvisibleRebelSteve33
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Re: Is Science a form of Mythology? [Re: Adamist]
    #1237820 - 01/21/03 05:11 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Yes, some things in science are theories.  A lot of things, actually.  The Big Bang THEORY, for example.  Or the THEORY of evolution.  The term theory means that it is not known for sure, but only speculation.  Science does not try to hide the fact that it is full of speculation.

But a lot of things in science are FACTS, or LAWS.  They are known.  They can be measured.  They are concrete and absolute.

I happen to be a scientist myself, so don't be dissin' science, man! :tongue: :wink:

-RebelSteve


--------------------
Namaste.


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: Is Science a form of Mythology? [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1237825 - 01/21/03 05:13 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Theories are evolved versions of myths. Neither should be believed- but investigated.

And calling science a form of mythology is not dissing it, in my opinion.


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:


Edited by Adamist (01/21/03 05:15 PM)


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Is Science a form of Mythology? [Re: Adamist]
    #1237937 - 01/21/03 06:02 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Science is Mythology



I'll have to remember this next time I boot up my computer, or board a plane, or use laundry detergent, or bake a cake, or grow mushrooms, or... nah, you're wrong. Mythology is different, maybe your definitions are mythology. Check your premises.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Anonymous

Re: Is Science a form of Mythology? [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1238070 - 01/21/03 08:18 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Yes, some things in science are theories.  A lot of things, actually.  The Big Bang THEORY, for example.  Or the THEORY of evolution.  The term theory means that it is not known for sure, but only speculation.  Science does not try to hide the fact that it is full of speculation.

But a lot of things in science are FACTS, or LAWS.  They are known.  They can be measured.  They are concrete and absolute.

I happen to be a scientist myself, so don't be dissin' science, man! :tongue: :wink:

-RebelSteve 




Actually there is no part of science which is concrete or absolute in the sense of that which can be known with certitude.  I say this as a scientist in my own right.  If you don't believe me bring up one law or fact so that I can knock it down.

It's all doxa not episteme, Steve.  There is no manifest Truth.


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Anonymous

Re: Is Science a form of Mythology? [Re: Evolving]
    #1238073 - 01/21/03 08:20 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Quote:

Science is Mythology



I'll have to remember this next time I boot up my computer, or board a plane, or use laundry detergent, or bake a cake, or grow mushrooms, or... nah, you're wrong. Mythology is different, maybe your definitions are mythology. Check your premises.




Actually he has a very good point here. Tomorrow I'll try to dig up my copy of Edith Hamilton's "Mythology". She states it far better than I could.

Science is, for all practical concerns, modern day myth.


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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: Is Science a form of Mythology? [Re: Adamist]
    #1238193 - 01/21/03 11:52 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

myths are stories that help us make sense of the universe...
the thing about science  (and scientific theory) is that it insists on the testability of a given premise (& the related concept of "peer review" :wink: ), while most other mythos tend towards the attitude of "revealed" or "handed down" explanations...
ymmv...


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care


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Anonymous

Re: Is Science a form of Mythology? [Re: gnrm23]
    #1238646 - 01/22/03 04:51 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Science was created by man, which means the whole thing is fucking CRAZY, and that fact that it works even SOME of the time is MIND BOGGLING!

Think about it.  Science is based around measurement.
Measurement of WHAT?!
Of properties that WE think things should have?

All the tools we have created to measure things were built to measure things that we could already 'conceive' of, which means "The way we thought things were".
We created tools that PROVED just that!

Things are exactly the way we think/feel/know they are.
:smirk:


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Offlinediggitydankman
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Re: Is Science a form of Mythology? [Re: ]
    #1238709 - 01/22/03 05:15 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Science is not based solely on measurements that we think things should have. 
It is based on quantitative information that can be measured such as speed, distance, time, and energy.  I ask you this, can you tell me how much potential energy a rock at the top of a hill has by looking at it?  First you must measure its weight and the distance it is from the bottom of the hill to determine potential energy.  If anyone truly believes that science is simply a myth, then I test you to go a single day without using any scientific methods or reasoning.  It is this reasoning that makes us so much more capable than our chimpanzee relatives, so I insist before you go as far as to disdain your ability to reason you think before you give away the thing that makes you most human. :smirk:   


--------------------
"It's only wrong if you get caught.
If consequences dictate
my course of action
I should play GOD."

Maynard James Keenan, Tool


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Anonymous

Re: Is Science a form of Mythology? [Re: diggitydankman]
    #1238736 - 01/22/03 05:25 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Believeing that physical objects such as "a rock" have inherant properties inside of them such as 'potential energy' and other things which can not be directly proven to exist is not a BAD thing.
Science has accomplished alot with the assumptions it has made.  But the thing is, that science is just one model, one way of looking at the information we have been given.  One interpretation.

I'm having a really difficult time getting across what I'm meaning to get across  :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :confused: :mad: :frown:


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Offlinediggitydankman
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Re: Is Science a form of Mythology? [Re: ]
    #1238745 - 01/22/03 05:29 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Can you honestly say that a car moving at 70 MPH will cause less or equal damage than one sitting still? If your answer is yes then so be it, but we know the truth. It has more potential energy and will cause a shitload more damage. When it hits the wall or car or person the potential energy is released as work, which in turn causes the damage.


--------------------
"It's only wrong if you get caught.
If consequences dictate
my course of action
I should play GOD."

Maynard James Keenan, Tool


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Anonymous

Re: Is Science a form of Mythology? [Re: diggitydankman]
    #1238841 - 01/22/03 06:07 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

I am strongly aware of the fact that mass seems to exist, and as such has repurcussions. Energy is what I'm talking about (forget relativity for a second). When is the last time you SAW electricity flowing through a wire, or SAW momentum stored inside an object (not as just a cause of it's velocity)?

Here is what I mean. We ASSume, that all matter is made up of these smaller things that we CAN NOT SEE WITH OUR EYES kuz they're too small, called ATOMS.
So we make a tool that can SEE these atoms for us. With assumptions like "well if they look like a tiny ball, then we should be able to shoot high frequency radio waves at them and capture the diffraction patter on some film, thus showing us what they look like"

What if ATOMS are just mathematical IDEAS, and NOT physical little spheres?!
The results from experiments with them would be identical, and since we can NEVER EVER actually see them with the naked eye, then whatever idea we have formed in our head about what they are, is what our apparatus used for looking at them are going to look for!

If I still don't make any sense it's kuz I haven't smoked my morning bowl.


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InvisibleRebelSteve33
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Re: Is Science a form of Mythology? [Re: Evolving]
    #1238853 - 01/22/03 06:12 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Good points, Evolving! :smile:

BTW, did you get the "check your premises" line from Atlas Shrugged?  I'm reading it now, and it is a great book!  I wish more people would take part in the discussion going on in the Literary Arts forum.


--------------------
Namaste.


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Offlinediggitydankman
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Re: Is Science a form of Mythology? [Re: ]
    #1238869 - 01/22/03 06:19 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

If atoms were simply mathematical ideas i dont suppose they would be able to be detected by electron microscopes now would they. But since electrons are part of an atom, they couldn't exist so we would not be able to use them as a magnification tool. And since electrons don't exist, well shit why the hell do those lights above you work since the electrical current running thorugh those wires is guided by electrons. And last time I checked electricty in most forms is detectable with eyes. Lightning Bolts are static electricity and so are the sparks from rubbing your feet on the carpet and touching metal ( which are easily viewable in the dark.)


--------------------
"It's only wrong if you get caught.
If consequences dictate
my course of action
I should play GOD."

Maynard James Keenan, Tool


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InvisibleRebelSteve33
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Re: Is Science a form of Mythology? [Re: ]
    #1238887 - 01/22/03 06:29 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

I don't know what doxa and episteme mean, but I do think I can bring up a law or fact that you will not be able to knock down.

How 'bout... The Law of Conservation of Energy? Or any of Newton's Laws....

Or how 'bout the simple fact that a dog cannot reproduce with a cat because they do not belong to the same species? Our concept of a species is a bit cloudy, but it is a scientific fact that a dog cannot procreate with a cat. It is known with certitude.

Or how 'bout any sort of chemical reaction? We know that when we mix this much of reactant A with this much of reactant B, this much of product C will form, etc, etc. Those things are known. They are facts.

We know that earthworms have 8 hearts. We know the wavelength of different colors of light. We know that plants create their own food through the process of photosynthesis. We know that when sperm penetrates the wall of an egg cell, the cell begins to divide and turn into a lifeform. We know it takes 365 days for the Earth to revolve around the sun. We know that when we apply heat to an Amanita, the harmful acid it contains will be changed into a more desired substance.

We know all these things, and many many many many more things, because of science! These things are not myths! They are truths... How can you knock down things that we know???


--------------------
Namaste.


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Anonymous

Re: Is Science a form of Mythology? [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1238972 - 01/22/03 07:01 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

How 'bout... The Law of Conservation of Energy? Or any of Newton's Laws....

Were not Newton's ideas found to be inaccurate by Einstein?  Similiarly, any scientific fact or law is subject to revision if further data comes in that changes it.  Is that not so?  Of course it is.  So what that means is that any law or fact can be changed.  Therefore they are not absolute. :smile:

As odd and counterintuitive as it may seem every example you brought up may change with the introduction of new evidence.  Therefore, none of them is known with certitude.

This is what I take it to mean when Sclorch says we must live with doubt.

These concepts are philosophical and, as such, trump science. :smile:

Remember philosophy defines what science is and is not.  It's power is greater and more enduring.

I am going to see if I can find that piece by Hamilton now.

Cheers 


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Is Science a form of Mythology? [Re: ]
    #1239018 - 01/22/03 07:25 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

I'm still waiting patiently for the merging of science and spirituality.


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OfflineSnuffelzFurever
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Re: Is Science a form of Mythology? [Re: ]
    #1239334 - 01/22/03 09:11 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

atoms arent actually little round spherical balls. well, they might be. but nobody actualy said they are. they look like it in diagrams, to make shit easier for us. kinda how wind isnt arrows, but wind currents on a globe of the earth have arrows representing them.

sciene may prove itself true for now, but you do not know what will happen in the future. something could happen that will debunk science.

remember, there was a point in time where people believed the world was flat (although i heard it wasnt columbus who dismissed this myth, it was already disproven at the time, but that doesnt matter) and science had indeed proved it. we arent perfect. our math isnt perfect. people have trouble grasping the concept of anything besides which we now know... but isnt that the case with everything else that has ever been disproven?

"Or how 'bout any sort of chemical reaction? We know that when we mix this much of reactant A with this much of reactant B, this much of product C will form, etc, etc. Those things are known. They are facts."
There are an infinite number of variables that rmain unaccounted for, that have not changed everytime a chemical reaction occurs. But maybe someday, someone who is tripping will discover an unknown chemical reaction that will affect every other chemical reaction in the world. science holds true until now, whenever now may be, but no longer than that. Because after now, you have no clue what will happen.

I believe in science, and I believe that everything is physics and chemistry. But I will never believe we have a perfect grasp of either. And so I await the day that everyone in my classroom is boggled by a desk suddenly falling UP, so that I can laugh at everyone, and say "I told ya so!"

:-)

Damn good thread, btw


--------------------
"I think it's time we stop
Children, What's the sound,
Everybody look what's going down"


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Anonymous

Re: Is Science a form of Mythology? [Re: diggitydankman]
    #1239808 - 01/22/03 11:40 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Look at Heisenberg's uncertainty principle. We don't even know where the hell an electron is around an atom, and that is what dictates how it interacts with other atoms. The best we have done is been able to come up with a 4 dimensional model called a "probability cloud"/orbitals. It can be represented to the human brain as a 3 dimensional gradient where the chances of it being closer to the nucleus are higher, but it is still just a representation. We have no idea what these things actually look like for the most part. We know how they react to things like particle beams, and the output that can be generated from that information though.


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Offlinediggitydankman
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Re: Is Science a form of Mythology? [Re: ]
    #1239840 - 01/22/03 11:51 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Ah, but we do, just not at any exact moment (they are moving at the speed of light). The orbitals are not four dimensional, they are three dimensional. The orbitals are easily drawn through the d orbitals, but i will concede that drawing the f orbitals is quite the challenge for a human. Computers can easily show every orbital and the general path the electron will take within that orbital. We also know that when electrons are destroyed they create other smaller particles.


--------------------
"It's only wrong if you get caught.
If consequences dictate
my course of action
I should play GOD."

Maynard James Keenan, Tool


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InvisibleRevelation

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Re: Is Science a form of Mythology? [Re: Adamist]
    #1239881 - 01/22/03 12:04 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Most people who are actually into science know that what they are describing is a model..not the real thing. The rest of the population, however, seems to have faith in science as a true story. That's where it becomes mythology. It saves people from actually thinking about things themselves...safe in the knowledge that the scientists know how things really are. Phew.


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Anonymous

Re: Is Science a form of Mythology? [Re: diggitydankman]
    #1239896 - 01/22/03 12:08 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Whenever a model describes something in motion like that I say it's a 4D model....
that's just me though


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Anonymous

Re: Is Science a form of Mythology? [Re: Revelation]
    #1239897 - 01/22/03 12:09 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Revelation is right. All through time people trusted the 'wise' men in the community. They knew alot, invented all kinds of things and healed people. Mysticism has a part of that the word AL usually returns in mystic things. It has to do with a state of mind, the AL knowing. algebra, alchemie, almenac.


Edited by sNaiLmAil (01/22/03 12:10 PM)


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: Is Science a form of Mythology? [Re: Revelation]
    #1240250 - 01/22/03 02:16 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Most people who are actually into science know that what they are describing is a model..not the real thing. The rest of the population, however, seems to have faith in science as a true story.



Couldn't this also be used to describe the way mythology can work? Mythology is a model used to describe functions of the universe, just as science is. Both of these are man-made, science is just the latest one. Of course we are going to think it is monumentally better, but that's just because we havn't seen what the future will bring. I foresee a future in which science is looked at in the same sense as mythology is now looked at. Humanity is constantly evolving.


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: Is Science a form of Mythology? [Re: ]
    #1240257 - 01/22/03 02:19 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

All through time people trusted the 'wise' men in the community.



I think scientists are the modern-day 'wise' men of the community. They give you the run-around on alot of things because they don't fully understand it themselves.

If you REALLY understand something, you should be able to explain it to a child. :wink: 


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Offlinediggitydankman
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Re: Is Science a form of Mythology? [Re: Adamist]
    #1240543 - 01/22/03 04:03 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

I think mythology more or less describes archaic religions more than archaic sciences. I am sure sooner or later future citizens of some yet to be named country will sit around in a group and discuss the myth of God.


--------------------
"It's only wrong if you get caught.
If consequences dictate
my course of action
I should play GOD."

Maynard James Keenan, Tool


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OfflineMurex
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Re: Is Science a form of Mythology? [Re: Adamist]
    #1240792 - 01/22/03 05:29 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Science is Mythology

Wha? I don't get it. Maybe I do and just see it as silly- this makes me wonder if I really do understand what you are saying or not.

I'm Konfuzed  :confused:



--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Is Science a form of Mythology? [Re: Adamist]
    #1240823 - 01/22/03 05:39 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Science seems to evolve much better than old mythology


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: Is Science a form of Mythology? [Re: Murex]
    #1241692 - 01/23/03 03:26 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Mythology - A body or collection of myths belonging to a people and addressing their origin, history, ancestors, etc. A myth is something whose existence is not absolutely verifiable.

Science can be substituted for much of the above... It gives us a better idea of things, but never an absolute one.

Science is modern-day mythology, in my opinion.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Is Science a form of Mythology? [Re: Adamist]
    #1241841 - 01/23/03 04:43 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Mythology - A body or collection of myths belonging to a people and addressing their origin, history, ancestors, etc. A myth is something whose existence is not absolutely verifiable.
Really?

myth (mth) n.
1. A traditional, typically ancient story dealing with supernatural beings, ancestors, or heroes that serves as a fundamental type in the worldview of a people, as by explaining aspects of the natural world or delineating the psychology, customs, or ideals of society: the myth of Eros and Psyche; a creation myth. Such stories considered as a group: the realm of myth.
2. A popular belief or story that has become associated with a person, institution, or occurrence, especially one considered to illustrate a cultural ideal: a star whose fame turned her into a myth; the pioneer myth of suburbia.
3. A fiction or half-truth, especially one that forms part of an ideology.
4. A fictitious story, person, or thing: ?German artillery superiority on the Western Front was a myth? (Leon Wolff).


I just don't see how these definitions could be accurately applied to the scientific method or science as an institution.

(letting you have it for being lazy)
Modern day myth, IYO? Well, your opinion is quite narrowminded... but I've come to expect that from the "spiritual" people on this board... which is basically a subgenre dedicated to fantastical interpretations of everything. So go on... bash science and whatever else that indicates that your fantasies aren't real in the objective sense. Yeah... science is all BULLSHIT, man! They haven't PROOVED anything... this computer, keyboard, monitor... it's all ILLUSION, man! No one outside of ME exists!! I'm just a brain in a vat, man... just feeling the flow... dude, heart chakras and stuff... I am god, man... and all I see is me... energy, man... like, yeah...everything is beautiful, man... even murder- which isn't really happening because I'm just a god in a vat... Astrology- it's the code of the universe, man... it's the program that runs the supercomputer that is connected to my brain (in the vat), man... it's cool, man... I'll pray for "your" soul if you don't believe any of this... I am eternal, bro...


Fuck that!
*flicks off his "non-existent" screen in disgust*


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: Is Science a form of Mythology? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1241898 - 01/23/03 04:58 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Modern day myth, IYO? Well, your opinion is quite narrowminded...



Or future-minded. Do you know what will happen in the future? Could science possibly be replaced with some other system of looking at reality?  :shocked: Could the system of science then be viewed upon as a primitive system (like mythology) that attempt to explain things that CANNOT be measured?

Quote:

but I've come to expect that from the "spiritual" people on this board


Thankyou for generalizing and judging a large group of people based on their beliefs. Very un-narrow-minded of you.

Quote:

So go on... bash science



Who's bashing science?? Not me.

Quote:

your fantasies aren't real in the objective sense. 


And science is?


The rest of your post is garbage that I don't feel the need to respond to. :smile: If you want to argue in a reasonable manner let me know.

The laws which have supposedly governed science are just like that of mythology in that they can be disproven and revolve around some rather un-absolute principles.   


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Offlinediggitydankman
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Re: Is Science a form of Mythology? [Re: Adamist]
    #1241939 - 01/23/03 05:09 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

I've more or less come to accept that mythology is ancient beliefs, thoughts, folk tales, etc. Yes, it is possible that some science may become myth. It was once thought that the world was flat, yet the Egyptians proved that the Earth was round and measured the diameter with simple mathematical equations. Science like everything evolves, but science will never become myth because it is the basis of everything. A=A, and this will never change because when you begin to argue that something is not itself, you have misused your brain's reasoning skills. This is the simplest concept for life, and argueing that 1=2 or a ball is equal to a rat will get you no where.


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"It's only wrong if you get caught.
If consequences dictate
my course of action
I should play GOD."

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OfflineAdamist
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Re: Is Science a form of Mythology? [Re: diggitydankman]
    #1241948 - 01/23/03 05:13 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

science will never become myth because it is the basis of everything.


My intuition disagrees with this statement.


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Offlinediggitydankman
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Re: Is Science a form of Mythology? [Re: Adamist]
    #1241959 - 01/23/03 05:15 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Maybe your intuition does, but all the facts don't. :smirk:  Maybe you should start listening to the facts. 


--------------------
"It's only wrong if you get caught.
If consequences dictate
my course of action
I should play GOD."

Maynard James Keenan, Tool


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Is Science a form of Mythology? [Re: diggitydankman]
    #1241969 - 01/23/03 05:18 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Spiritual science is the basis for everything. We only have it half figured out.
Loving logic is the nature of the universe. Not jut logic.


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: Is Science a form of Mythology? [Re: diggitydankman]
    #1241978 - 01/23/03 05:22 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Maybe you should start listening to the facts.



I do. But that's not the ONLY thing I listen to.  :wink: 


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Offlinediggitydankman
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Re: Is Science a form of Mythology? [Re: Adamist]
    #1242033 - 01/23/03 05:41 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Well before we continue discussing this, I'd like to say that I'm glad to have found an insightful and thought provoking section to this community. At first I was skeptical of a bunch of people who sit around and use drugs (if you visit some of the forums you'll know what I mean) as having any knowledge for discussing relevant topics other than "should I take these pills I found." Thank you for opening my mind and having an open community to discuss these topics.

Adamist, what other sort of things are possible to listen to other than facts. I believe that humans as a species are horribly misguided in their use of their brains. Who is to say that our brains are not more sophisticated than we think and all of our intuitions are simply decisions made subconsciously using previous facts.


--------------------
"It's only wrong if you get caught.
If consequences dictate
my course of action
I should play GOD."

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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Is Science a form of Mythology? [Re: Adamist]
    #1242099 - 01/23/03 06:01 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Quote Sclorch:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
your fantasies aren't real in the objective sense.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Adamist: And science is?
You're typing on a computer right now aren't you?

Quote Sclorch:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So go on... bash science
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Adamist: Who's bashing science?? Not me.
Science is not mythological in any way, shape, or form.
It's sloppy thinking/judgement to think that it is.

Adamist: Could science possibly be replaced with some other system of looking at reality? Could the system of science then be viewed upon as a primitive system (like mythology) that attempt to explain things that CANNOT be measured?

In a word, NO. Science is just a methodology. As a methodology, it is adaptable... it WILL stand the test of time. The institution of science is constantly changing. The current snapshot of that institution will no doubt one day be seen as primitive, but not science itself.

Adamist: The laws which have supposedly governed science are just like that of mythology in that they can be disproven and revolve around some rather un-absolute principles.
When science uses the word "Law", it is understood that this "law" is fallible.
There are no laws that govern science... only the scientific METHOD.
I don't remember there ever being a method to ANY mythological madness...


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Invisiblethe_Landotter
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Re: Is Science a form of Mythology? [Re: Adamist]
    #1242248 - 01/23/03 06:59 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Look, people, it's all about SYSTEMS OF THOUGHT! I direct you to the words of johann Jocob Bachofen...

"Multiform and shifting in its outward manifestation, myth nevertheless follows fixed laws. Product of a cultural period in which life had not yet broken away from the harmony of nature it shares with nature that unconscious lawfullness which is always lacking in the works of free reflection. Everywhere there is system, everywhere cohesion; in every detail the expression of a great fundamental law whose abundant manifestations demonstrate its inner truth and natural necessity."

Trade the word "myth" for the word "science" and the description still fits the SYSTEM OF THOUGHT. Either way is a perfectly acceptable method of ordering the Universe... Myth orders it according to Intuition, Emotion and Spirit. Science orders it through Logic, Reason and Intellection.

Your battles are all semantic. Both views are valid.


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Invisiblethe_Landotter
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Re: Is Science a form of Mythology? [Re: Adamist]
    #1242278 - 01/23/03 07:09 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

You might find this difficult to believe, but... skepticism is boring.

No, seriously. 




Seriously?  Skepticism isn't boring.  It is refreshing and necessary.

What's boring is anger, intolerance, ignorance and fear of the unknown.

Unfortuneatly, the two are practically joined at the hip on this forum.  It would be nice to see some true skepticism here, a skepticism devoid of bitterness and judgement.

I live in hope.  :smirk: 


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Re: Is Science a form of Mythology? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1242301 - 01/23/03 07:16 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

just because science is not myth does not mean that we know everything about science. we are not flawless in our formulas and our notions of physics. we might be very wrong. chances are, we are very wrong. we have been wrong, and we will continue to be wrong, and we will adapt what we know to what we see.


--------------------
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Children, What's the sound,
Everybody look what's going down"


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Is Science a form of Mythology? [Re: SnuffelzFurever]
    #1242429 - 01/23/03 08:15 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

just because science is not myth does not mean that we know everything about science. we are not flawless in our formulas and our notions of physics. we might be very wrong. chances are, we are very wrong. we have been wrong, and we will continue to be wrong, and we will adapt what we know to what we see.

No doubt.


--------------------
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OfflineAdamist
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Re: Is Science a form of Mythology? [Re: diggitydankman]
    #1242579 - 01/23/03 09:27 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I'd like to say that I'm glad to have found an insightful and thought provoking section to this community. Thank you for opening my mind and having an open community to discuss these topics.



You are welcome! :smile:
I enjoy discussing ideas and opinions so that I can question what I think and evolve, as I'm sure everyone here does.


Quote:

Adamist, what other sort of things are possible to listen to other than facts. Who is to say that our brains are not more sophisticated than we think and all of our intuitions are simply decisions made subconsciously using previous facts.


I like that idea... But what about vision and imagination? Those certainly play a part in evolution.   


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: Is Science a form of Mythology? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1242594 - 01/23/03 09:34 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

You're typing on a computer right now aren't you?



Technology is created using science as a tool, but that doesn't mean science created technology.
We did.


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Anonymous

Re: Is Science a form of Mythology? [Re: the_Landotter]
    #1243214 - 01/23/03 01:21 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

It would be nice to see some true skepticism here, a skepticism devoid of bitterness and judgement.

There is plenty of it for those who can see.  I am the skeptical believer. :smile:

I trust you have seen no judgment or bitterness from me.

Going back the the thing I was going to post about Edith Hamilton here is a quote from her book called, Mythology:

"Greek mythology is largely made up of stories about gods and goddesses, but it must not be read as a kind of Greek Bible, an account of Greek Religion.  According to the most modern idea, a real myth has nothing to do with religion.  It is an explanation of something in nature; how, for instance, any and everything in the universe came into existence: man, animals, this or that tree or flower, the sun, the moon, the stars, storms, eruptions, earthquakes, all that is and all that happens.  Thunder and lightening are caused when Zeus hurls His thunderbolt.  A volcano erupts because a terrible creature is imprisoned in the mountain and every now and then struggles to get free.  The Dipper, the constellation called also the Great Bear, does not set below the horizon because a goddess once was angry at it and decreed that it should never sink into the sea.  Myths are early science, the result of men's first trying to explain what they saw around them."

Today there are certain sections of science that are myth-like.  These arise from a number of reasons, one of which is poor science, another is improper or junk science.  Theoretical physics would be in the latter category and evolution would be in the former.  In the former case scientists tried to step outside the limits of their knowledge philosophically and so ran aground.  In the latter case, born of hubris, scientists rely on Hobbesian delimited paradigms thinking that investigation sans teleological concerns are enough to provide steady answers.  In both cases they are wrong.

Tomorrow's reading assignment is posted on the bulletin board so I needn't bring that up during class.  I should have your test results finished at that time.

Class dismissed. 


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