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OfflineDavid_Scape
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Registered: 08/05/02
Posts: 878
Loc: U.S. of muthafuckin A.
Last seen: 12 years, 7 months
Re: does existentialism support relativism or absolutism? [Re: Malachi]
    #1678379 - 07/02/03 01:07 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

so you agree that existentialism is absolute. but is this really absolute? if it's reached in a relative way?




It is both. Absolute and relative. Each can refer to the other when you talk about it in a sense existentialism appears to.
RELATIVE in the sense that it is dicated by each person and ABSOLUTE in the sense that each person can use it to argue that their moral stance is absolute. It's essentially like arguing through the form of a mobius strip; it only appears like there's two sides. 

It goes around in circles, yes, and that's how it works.

It is an example of a debate containing self-reference. See Douglas R. Hofstader for more and enjoy the ride :nut:


--------------------
focusing
Flow
The Enneagram


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OfflineMalachi
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Registered: 06/19/02
Posts: 1,294
Loc: Around Minneapolis.
Last seen: 12 years, 7 months
Re: does existentialism support relativism or absolutism? [Re: David_Scape]
    #1678439 - 07/02/03 01:24 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

arrghh! *head explodes*


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The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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OfflineDavid_Scape
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Posts: 878
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Re: does existentialism support relativism or absolutism? [Re: Malachi]
    #1678513 - 07/02/03 01:46 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

 
:nut: Take a load off your mind MAN!! :nut: 


--------------------
focusing
Flow
The Enneagram


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OfflineMalachi
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Registered: 06/19/02
Posts: 1,294
Loc: Around Minneapolis.
Last seen: 12 years, 7 months
Re: does existentialism support relativism or absolutism? [Re: David_Scape]
    #1678575 - 07/02/03 02:06 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

oh wow, it looks so.... unrealistically gruesome... purrrrfect. :smile:


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The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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OfflineRhizoid
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Registered: 01/23/00
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Re: does existentialism support relativism or absolutism? [Re: David_Scape]
    #1678835 - 07/02/03 03:25 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

ABSOLUTE in the sense that each person can use it to argue that their moral stance is absolute




I always thought that "absolute" by definition requires something that doesn't depend on a particular person's point of view?


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OfflineDavid_Scape
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Re: does existentialism support relativism or absolutism? [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1679007 - 07/02/03 04:24 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

I concede to you, mighty rhizoid for da sake of continuation. Tis your thinking is more accurate.
[However, note that I have a tendency to gravitate towards solopsism. Slap me and i usually regain guard.:D]

In that sense, though, I would say it's almost definately relative then. Because it's all about the looking glass...dude.


--------------------
focusing
Flow
The Enneagram


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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
T'was born oftrue in the yearof the cock!

Registered: 04/07/03
Posts: 1,500
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Re: does existentialism support relativism or absolutism? [Re: David_Scape]
    #1680162 - 07/02/03 01:26 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

malachi- wrong, its daoism, tao-ism is an old european rendering....at least, thats what chinese daoist scholars think, and thats what it taught when studying chinese philosophy.

you being chinese is completely meaningless regarding this topic, ive met many chinese individuals who dont know shit about chinese philosophy.


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enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.


Edited by atomikfunksoldier (07/02/03 01:26 PM)


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: does existentialism support relativism or absolutism? [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1680470 - 07/02/03 03:57 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

In the late 1960's, in NYC's Greenwich Village, around Bleeker and McDougal (which was the East coast Haight-Ashbury), there were psychedelic shops that sold millions of buttons. I remember seeing, before I understood the meanings, 'cause I was in 10th grade) one button which read: 'Existence Precedes Essence." Another button read: Essence Precedes Existence." The first button represented the Existential stance in a general sense, and the latter represented Essentialism, or more accurately, the Ontological stance [ontos=being].

Existentialism, as a word, is practically useless today because one must talk of 'who's' existentialism. There are the commonly referred to Camus and Sartre, but these do not represent all of existential thought. There is the Phenomenological-Existential method, which draws upon Hegelian thought and Husserlian [bracketing] of invariant or universal features from the comparatively temporary flux of existence. There are existential psychologists like Irv Yalom, whose philosophy of psychology admits of no Essence - no pure Being - no God in his thinking. It is all material, transient, essentially meaningless, existence - and we have to come to terms with that.

On another level, two major world religions: Buddhism and Christianity, can be seen as taking a first step from Existential and Ontological thought, respectively. The first tenet of Buddhism is: "Life [existence] is suffering." A central tenet of Johannine Christianity is: "God is love." Buddhism begins with Existence, Christianity begins with Being. Both faiths teach Compassion, which is where they meet, because Compassion, as disinterested, altruistic, universal love, is the Essence of the Absolute (Nirvana and God), realized in the [Existential] human being. The attitude of early, Theravadin Buddhism which insists upon working out one's own salvation, without divine assitance or grace, is the opposite attitude toward the Christian (and some Mahayana Buddhism) which insists that salvation depends upon the grace of God, first and foremost. This, of course is the seed for predeterminism and free will debates within Christianity, because there are scriptural writings about 'the elect,' who are saved, and the elect, are elected by God.

A Christian, harkening back to the act of Creation (or, Big Bang) can affirm that Essence (God) precedes existence (creation), because of the supposed linear progression. The Buddhist sees this same creation, but may affirm the classical cyclic stance of Hinduism, which says yes to creation, but there will be an entropy which causes the creation to reverse motion and fall back again into the Singularity whence it arose, only to be followed by a new creation - ad infinitum.

So, both Existence and Essence are co-eternal, and Essence only apparently precedes Existence. It's a conundrum, this Existential-Ontological argument, is it not? Believe what one will, only the Eternal Witness Knows the Absolute Truth about this one.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMalachi
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Registered: 06/19/02
Posts: 1,294
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Re: does existentialism support relativism or absolutism? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1680610 - 07/02/03 04:43 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

I'd take the ontological over the existential, only I want to be able to self determine. perhaps if the Self is essential, and I'm a manifestation of the Self, I could self determine into a predetermined existence - a contradiction whereby everyone's a winner. well, except that this would mean that the self is pretty fucked up in alot of cases.


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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