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OfflineMalachi
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does existentialism support relativism or absolutism?
    #1671423 - 06/29/03 12:27 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

and how does determinism impact the relative debate?


I wrote out this long post about this, but it didn't go up for some reason, and I don't want to type it all out again, so I'm just throwing the question out.


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The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich

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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
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Re: does existentialism support relativism or absolutism? [Re: Malachi]
    #1671434 - 06/29/03 12:30 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

definitly relativism, determinism is irrelevant to a real existentialist.


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: does existentialism support relativism or absolutism? [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1674409 - 06/30/03 04:00 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

isms are bunk

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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: does existentialism support relativism or absolutism? [Re: Malachi]
    #1674513 - 06/30/03 04:42 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

how can existentialism support anything?

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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
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Re: does existentialism support relativism or absolutism? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1674716 - 06/30/03 05:50 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

doctor:"isms are bunk"

so that makes you a....nihlist?

existentialism can support the justification of laying in bed all day staring at the ceiling.


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enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.

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OfflineMalachi
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Re: does existentialism support relativism or absolutism? [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1675329 - 06/30/03 09:43 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

the reason for the question was a scene in the movie waking life where a professor contrasts sartre with 'the' postmodernists. the professor finds the postmodernists too relative (relative because of their deterministic tendancies, i.e. quantifying people into products of environment, etc) while existentialists provide a justification for free will - since we don't have a pre existing ideal to conform to we can choose with moral certainty.

so this guy says existentialism (sartre) leads to absolute morality. not relative.


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The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich

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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: does existentialism support relativism or absolutism? [Re: Malachi]
    #1675805 - 07/01/03 01:03 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Sartre was a marxist and a poleznye idioty (Lenin's words for "useful idiot"). Or maybe even worse.

If Jean-Paul Sartre doesn't trigger your vomit reflex, chances are that Joseph Goebbels or Alfred Rosenberg don't either, and that is too scary for words.

This is how Sartre explained his ideological support for mass murder:

Quote:

As we were neither members of the party nor avowed sympathisers it was not our duty to write about Soviet labour camps; we were free to remain aloof from the quarrel over the nature of this system, provided no events of sociological significance had occurred.




The truth is that he knew about the communist death camps, but he still kept on licking Stalin's ass until it became unfashionable to do so, and at that point he suddenly became a critic of Stalin (but strangely enough not of marxism itself).

Sartre had one bad trip on mescaline in 1935 that made him psychotic, but I hesitate to draw the conclusion that it could be enough to explain his persistent idiocy in the decades that followed.

PS. Sartre became a critic of Stalin only after Stalin's death. The alpha-male died, long live the new alpha-male. That is Sartre in a nutshell.

Edit: added PS.

Edited by Rhizoid (07/01/03 02:44 AM)

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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
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Re: does existentialism support relativism or absolutism? [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1675833 - 07/01/03 01:18 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

postmodernism sucks. fuck sam becket.


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enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: does existentialism support relativism or absolutism? [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1676629 - 07/01/03 10:37 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

The truth is that he knew about the communist death camps, but he still kept on licking Stalin's ass until it became unfashionable to do so, and at that point he suddenly became a critic of Stalin (but strangely enough not of marxism itself).



Stalin does not equal Marxism. In fact, Stalin corrupted the Marxist ideals greatly.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: does existentialism support relativism or absolutism? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1676681 - 07/01/03 10:52 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

"Stalin does not equal Marxism. In fact, Stalin corrupted the Marxist ideals greatly."

I will say it again: isms are bunk!

"Don't confuse the moon with the finger pointing at the moon."-
Old chinese proverb.

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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
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Re: does existentialism support relativism or absolutism? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1676696 - 07/01/03 11:00 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

what about dao-ism


oooops, did i just destroy your whole point?


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enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.

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OfflineMalachi
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Re: does existentialism support relativism or absolutism? [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1676752 - 07/01/03 11:29 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Rhizoid -

well, I really don't see your point.  If every philosopher has to pass a modern pc litmus test, then we ought to simply stop talking about philosophy.  alot of what people did in the past isn't kosher today, it doesn't make their ideas any less interesting.

the mescal tripping thing is funny, in 'lsd the private sea' sarte is quoted as describing the experience as like "fighting an angry badger" in his head or something like that. :smile:

so ignore that the professor fellow is talking sartre, cause this issue is applicable to a general existential doctrine.


atomikfunksoldier -

it's taoism.



--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich

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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: does existentialism support relativism or absolutism? [Re: Malachi]
    #1676792 - 07/01/03 11:45 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

well, I really don't see your point. If every philosopher has to pass a modern pc litmus test, then we ought to simply stop talking about philosophy. alot of what people did in the past isn't kosher today, it doesn't make their ideas any less interesting.




You're right of course, there is no reason not to talk about the philosophy of Plato or Heidegger, although they are acknowledged as being fascists. I am sorry if it sounded like I wanted to suppress discussion about Sartre, that was not my intention. I just wanted to remind people about what an asshole he was.

My point is only that we should pay more attention to people who did not prove to the world that they were idiots during their lifetime, than to the people who were successful in this regard.

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OfflineAmnesiac
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Re: does existentialism support relativism or absolutism? [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1677191 - 07/01/03 02:33 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

To expand on the "isms are bunk" comment, I think that it's useless to try and classify everybody's values within a single word. I think that most people have traits of many different "isms", and yet they might attempt to attach themselves to one particular label... or be labeled by somebody else.

I'm sure that simply by writing the comments above, somebody reading this will already believe they have my "ism" figured out.

Let's keep in mind as well that we should never jump to label anybody... I find that it's a great annoyance when people do this to me. I've been called a number of "isms" by people who seem to think that they know who I am based on one or two things that I say.

I have nothing against philosophy, let's just stop trying so hard to define ourselves... I could go on but I'll stray way off topic! Sorry, just my 2 cents :smile:


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Here we are, in these bodies, on this planet in an endless universe. This is not the extent of who we are... merely an extension of who we really are.

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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: does existentialism support relativism or absolutism? [Re: Amnesiac]
    #1677285 - 07/01/03 03:30 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Let's keep in mind as well that we should never jump to label anybody...




That's very true Amnesiac. But surely there is no harm in reminding people about which philosophers made a point of opposing mass murderers, and who didn't? Labeling people isn't something one does lightly, but in extreme cases (like Sartre) the label is just a necessary warning sign.

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: does existentialism support relativism or absolutism? [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1677290 - 07/01/03 03:32 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Heidegger, the most influential philosopher of the 20th century, was a card-carrying member of the Nazi party, but that still doesn't discount the importance of his ideas.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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OfflineMalachi
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Re: does existentialism support relativism or absolutism? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1677333 - 07/01/03 03:52 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

well, obviously being a nazi does make one thing twice about giving credence to his philosophy - which is the point rhizoid is making - however, it seems that interesting philosophers, or at least popular philosophers, have a propensity towards histrionic extremes. saints that are recovering alcoholics and the like (or alan watts - this was a big debate).

so either the masses are attracted to these sorts of characteristics in their philosophers, or philosophers in general are deviants.


none of this has anything to do with my original question though - in light of this argument that existential thinking frees one from realtivity and postmodern thinking's relativism is a product of it's determinism? how is existentialism relative? it really looks like a way to make absolute moral stances.


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich

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OfflineDavid_Scape
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Re: does existentialism support relativism or absolutism? [Re: Malachi]
    #1678221 - 07/01/03 09:57 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

I imagine that existentialism makes moral stances undebatable.

The universe does not provide us with morals. Morals are created by the individual and are justified by the individual. Morals are made absolute, relatively.

The Individual is holding all the cards.


--------------------
focusing
Flow
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OfflineDogomush
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Re: does existentialism support relativism or absolutism? [Re: David_Scape]
    #1678250 - 07/01/03 10:11 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Malachi...

Taoism? Well, actually the chinese don't use our alphabet, they have their own (they are a different culture you know) so there's no definite way to spell it. However, there is an official system based on converting the words to use consonants that make the word pronounced more correctly. Pinyin it's called, and so Taoism is wrong, it's actually daoism.

Don't ever attempt to get one up on funksoldier ever again.


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OfflineMalachi
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Re: does existentialism support relativism or absolutism? [Re: Dogomush]
    #1678301 - 07/01/03 10:39 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

dog- - well, since I _am_ chinese, your explaination is superfluous. yes, it sounds like dao, but it's usually spelled tao.


david- - so you agree that existentialism is absolute. but is this really absolute? if it's reached in a relative way?


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich

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OfflineDavid_Scape
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Re: does existentialism support relativism or absolutism? [Re: Malachi]
    #1678379 - 07/01/03 11:07 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

so you agree that existentialism is absolute. but is this really absolute? if it's reached in a relative way?




It is both. Absolute and relative. Each can refer to the other when you talk about it in a sense existentialism appears to.
RELATIVE in the sense that it is dicated by each person and ABSOLUTE in the sense that each person can use it to argue that their moral stance is absolute. It's essentially like arguing through the form of a mobius strip; it only appears like there's two sides. 

It goes around in circles, yes, and that's how it works.

It is an example of a debate containing self-reference. See Douglas R. Hofstader for more and enjoy the ride :nut:


--------------------
focusing
Flow
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OfflineMalachi
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Re: does existentialism support relativism or absolutism? [Re: David_Scape]
    #1678439 - 07/01/03 11:24 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

arrghh! *head explodes*


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich

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OfflineDavid_Scape
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Re: does existentialism support relativism or absolutism? [Re: Malachi]
    #1678513 - 07/01/03 11:46 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

 
:nut: Take a load off your mind MAN!! :nut: 


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focusing
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OfflineMalachi
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Re: does existentialism support relativism or absolutism? [Re: David_Scape]
    #1678575 - 07/02/03 12:06 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

oh wow, it looks so.... unrealistically gruesome... purrrrfect. :smile:


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich

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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: does existentialism support relativism or absolutism? [Re: David_Scape]
    #1678835 - 07/02/03 01:25 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

ABSOLUTE in the sense that each person can use it to argue that their moral stance is absolute




I always thought that "absolute" by definition requires something that doesn't depend on a particular person's point of view?

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OfflineDavid_Scape
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Re: does existentialism support relativism or absolutism? [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1679007 - 07/02/03 02:24 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

I concede to you, mighty rhizoid for da sake of continuation. Tis your thinking is more accurate.
[However, note that I have a tendency to gravitate towards solopsism. Slap me and i usually regain guard.:D]

In that sense, though, I would say it's almost definately relative then. Because it's all about the looking glass...dude.


--------------------
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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
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Re: does existentialism support relativism or absolutism? [Re: David_Scape]
    #1680162 - 07/02/03 11:26 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

malachi- wrong, its daoism, tao-ism is an old european rendering....at least, thats what chinese daoist scholars think, and thats what it taught when studying chinese philosophy.

you being chinese is completely meaningless regarding this topic, ive met many chinese individuals who dont know shit about chinese philosophy.


--------------------
enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.

Edited by atomikfunksoldier (07/02/03 11:26 AM)

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: does existentialism support relativism or absolutism? [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1680470 - 07/02/03 01:57 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

In the late 1960's, in NYC's Greenwich Village, around Bleeker and McDougal (which was the East coast Haight-Ashbury), there were psychedelic shops that sold millions of buttons. I remember seeing, before I understood the meanings, 'cause I was in 10th grade) one button which read: 'Existence Precedes Essence." Another button read: Essence Precedes Existence." The first button represented the Existential stance in a general sense, and the latter represented Essentialism, or more accurately, the Ontological stance [ontos=being].

Existentialism, as a word, is practically useless today because one must talk of 'who's' existentialism. There are the commonly referred to Camus and Sartre, but these do not represent all of existential thought. There is the Phenomenological-Existential method, which draws upon Hegelian thought and Husserlian [bracketing] of invariant or universal features from the comparatively temporary flux of existence. There are existential psychologists like Irv Yalom, whose philosophy of psychology admits of no Essence - no pure Being - no God in his thinking. It is all material, transient, essentially meaningless, existence - and we have to come to terms with that.

On another level, two major world religions: Buddhism and Christianity, can be seen as taking a first step from Existential and Ontological thought, respectively. The first tenet of Buddhism is: "Life [existence] is suffering." A central tenet of Johannine Christianity is: "God is love." Buddhism begins with Existence, Christianity begins with Being. Both faiths teach Compassion, which is where they meet, because Compassion, as disinterested, altruistic, universal love, is the Essence of the Absolute (Nirvana and God), realized in the [Existential] human being. The attitude of early, Theravadin Buddhism which insists upon working out one's own salvation, without divine assitance or grace, is the opposite attitude toward the Christian (and some Mahayana Buddhism) which insists that salvation depends upon the grace of God, first and foremost. This, of course is the seed for predeterminism and free will debates within Christianity, because there are scriptural writings about 'the elect,' who are saved, and the elect, are elected by God.

A Christian, harkening back to the act of Creation (or, Big Bang) can affirm that Essence (God) precedes existence (creation), because of the supposed linear progression. The Buddhist sees this same creation, but may affirm the classical cyclic stance of Hinduism, which says yes to creation, but there will be an entropy which causes the creation to reverse motion and fall back again into the Singularity whence it arose, only to be followed by a new creation - ad infinitum.

So, both Existence and Essence are co-eternal, and Essence only apparently precedes Existence. It's a conundrum, this Existential-Ontological argument, is it not? Believe what one will, only the Eternal Witness Knows the Absolute Truth about this one.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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OfflineMalachi
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Re: does existentialism support relativism or absolutism? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1680610 - 07/02/03 02:43 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

I'd take the ontological over the existential, only I want to be able to self determine. perhaps if the Self is essential, and I'm a manifestation of the Self, I could self determine into a predetermined existence - a contradiction whereby everyone's a winner. well, except that this would mean that the self is pretty fucked up in alot of cases.


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich

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