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InvisibletrendalM
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Science's Quest for God
    #1892377 - 09/08/03 12:13 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

For those of you familiar with Grand Unification Theory, the search it represents, and the goal it strives for: how do you feel about the idea that this is just another quest to understand "God", albeit in Science's comforting campground?


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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OfflineRastafari
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Re: Science's Quest for God [Re: trendal]
    #1892651 - 09/08/03 01:52 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

well i dont know much of what your talking about except that scientists have proven that all atoms in this universe work together in a harmony of movement...to me that shows that Love is the source of all...

albert einstein said "nothing happens until something moves"

I think that a scientist with 1 microscope and a case of skeptisism isnt going to get very far (i could be very wrong about that) when in comparison our planet and solar system could be the size of atoms in a much larger scale world of weirdness

ever think about that1 HuH? :P


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I&I


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OfflineRastafari
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Re: Science's Quest for God [Re: Rastafari]
    #1892666 - 09/08/03 01:56 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

perhaps our universe is 1 grain of sand in the beach of creation


::scratches head::


--------------------
I&I


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Science's Quest for God [Re: Rastafari]
    #1892673 - 09/08/03 01:58 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Saying he isn't going to get far isn't the same as saying he might be wrong :wink:

We know our theories might be wrong. That's why we call them theories. 


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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OfflineRastafari
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Re: Science's Quest for God [Re: trendal]
    #1892679 - 09/08/03 02:01 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

but when a theory is proven to us and no one else can measure that... should we try to convince others? perhaps they werent ment to experience the same things as we

my experience is that the universe's source is love & light (the closest energy we can comprehend to this buzzing source which causes all to move)

ah yes the source. the source

i think the proof of a source is in its creation...

what a coinkydink all these atoms came together in such a manner ::rolls eyes::

those pesky atoms

::hugs an atom::


--------------------
I&I


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Invisiblebert
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Re: Science's Quest for God [Re: Rastafari]
    #1892682 - 09/08/03 02:02 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I don't know why everyone uses that 'our universe might just be an atom in a much bigger universe' example so much. I don't understand why magnitudes of size make any difference.


--------------------
Persons denying the existence of robots may be robots themselves.


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OfflineRastafari
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Re: Science's Quest for God [Re: bert]
    #1892704 - 09/08/03 02:12 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

bert i'm interested in hearing some of these peoples theories since I thought that one up on my own ;P

small world isnt it

magnitudes of size do make a difference when you think about the worlds we crush as we take a step and how our world might be a part of a much bigger world...makes you also want to seek your purpose on de good earth

purpose is good


--------------------
I&I


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Science's Quest for God [Re: trendal]
    #1892955 - 09/08/03 04:09 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

For those of you familiar with Grand Unification Theory, the search it represents, and the goal it strives for: how do you feel about the idea that this is just another quest to understand "God", albeit in Science's comforting campground?

First of all, I'd like to say that I find it highly ironic that someone with so much faith invested in a method would so desparately seek a foundation that would undermine the very purpose of the tool they are utilizing in their search.

Okay... here's the truth:
The fundamental motivation behind GUT/Superstring/whatever is a desire for an absolute foundation. Psychologically-speaking, this indicates an insecurity. I posit that this insecurity is the fear of the unknown. I think this fear is due to people feeling uncomfortable in their own skins - a lack of faith in self. Oh, sure, they may have big egos, but that's not faith in self... that's merely the faith-equivalent of saccharine.

I think we'd all be alot better off if the supergeeks spent more time on decreasing pollution and whatnot.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: Science's Quest for God [Re: Sclorch]
    #1892997 - 09/08/03 04:36 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

no man, I think you misunderstand. no scientist seriously thinks that the unified theory will be THE FINAL theory of everything. All they're doing is trying to reconcile the great schizm that exists in modern physics, that between Newtonian physics and quantum mechanics. it's just another step in our continuing understanding of the universe, a process that never ends. I don't think insecurity has anything to do with it.

would you say that Newton was afraid of the unknown when he came up with the theory of gravity and then invented a field of mathematics (calculus) to explain it? I mean think about it... he invented a math to explain his theory. he must've been insecure right?

it's a given that there will be things that are unknown or unknowable and I think scientists understand that, so I don't see how they would be motivated by fear of the unknown. maybe they just want to know more.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Science's Quest for God [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1893019 - 09/08/03 04:57 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

No.... I don't misunderstand.
They want a formula for existence. Oh sure, they give it a new name and say all they want do to is "reconcile the great schism that between Newtonian physics and quantum mechanics," but that's just a euphemism in my book.

Newton observed, then postulated.
String-theorists postulate, then observe (or attempt to).

Just knowing more is fine and dandy, but read Michio Kaku and tell me he's not searching for the "god formula". Read Hawking and tell me he's not looking for the grand answers. Read 'em all and then tell me there is no assumption and ultimate quest.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: Science's Quest for God [Re: Sclorch]
    #1893047 - 09/08/03 05:24 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I read those books and yes, they do seem to be searching for something. scientists are allowed to have beliefs too. but you shouldn't make assumptions about their motivations.


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OfflinePedM
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Re: Science's Quest for God [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1893293 - 09/08/03 09:37 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Science is too often knowledge without awareness.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Science's Quest for God [Re: Sclorch]
    #1893376 - 09/08/03 10:27 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Yes, they are searching for an "ultimate answer". That was my original point.

Einstein believed that grand unified theory would unravel the mysteries of the universe before us. We would be able to, in principle, describe everything in the universe through one eloquent equation.

Is the search for God in some ways similar, or completely the same? The search for the answer to everything? A final understanding?


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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OfflineClover
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Re: Science's Quest for God [Re: trendal]
    #1893414 - 09/08/03 10:44 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I have found that the quest for a higher power tends to give humankind hope in the wake of very little control over their environments as well as in devastating circumstances. It is a survival tactic perhaps.
Personally, I am ok with not knowing exactly HOW the universe was first created or if there is concrete scientific evidence of god/goddess. It is well enough for me to witness and be a part of giving life to another human being.


--------------------
"Those sweet excesses I do adore."



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Invisiblechunder
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Re: Science's Quest for God [Re: Clover]
    #1893450 - 09/08/03 10:58 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

The search for a GUT will ultimately just provide advances in understanding our universe. Nothing more, nothing less. There is no way to have any sort of 'finality' when it comes to the universe, so anything we do discover is just another small step towards an impossibly huge greater truth.

I really don't see how the search for higher truth in physics is a sign of insecurity... Using that logic I could also say that anyone striving to refine their models using scientific (or other) methods is guilty of insecurity, thus making those who never learn the ones with all the "security".

Newton observed, then postulated.
String-theorists postulate, then observe (or attempt to).


How do you know? Seems pretty presumptious to me, and hints at the essence of your motives for constructing such a dichotomy.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Science's Quest for God [Re: chunder]
    #1893474 - 09/08/03 11:06 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

It is true, I guess.

Newton did observe then postulate. It's the normal course of scientific progress for theory to follow experiment.

In the case of string theory, the theory is far beyond anything we can experimentally verify with current technology. Most direct evidence for strings cannot be seen except under extreme enery levels which we cannot reproduce. So string theory is backwards, in that it is a theory that is being created before any experimentation is done.

A lot of physicists, especially the experimenting crowd, don't like this and as such don't really buy into string theory.

I think that string theory is a distinct possibility. And I'm sure it won't be too long before some indirect experimental evidence is obtained. One way or the other.


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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InvisibleAutonomous
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Re: Science's Quest for God [Re: trendal]
    #1893575 - 09/08/03 11:49 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

... So, the high preists of the Scientific Citadels, the pointy headed uber nerds of the modern secular religion, are doing what the priestcraft of countless belief systems that have come before them have done, making shit up. This is not science, this is fantasy (brainiac fantasy, but fantasy nonetheless).


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"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain


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InvisibleNariusFractal
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Re: Science's Quest for God [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1893726 - 09/08/03 12:32 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah, Purpose is a motivator


--------------------
You are the microcosm of the macrocosm.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Science's Quest for God [Re: Autonomous]
    #1893743 - 09/08/03 12:34 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quite possible, yes  :wink:


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Science's Quest for God [Re: trendal]
    #1893752 - 09/08/03 12:36 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Parsimony, or parsimoniousness is an undercurrent in scientific thought. It is defined as extreme frugalness by the little Merriam-Webster by my computer, and what I mean is that the simpler solutions are sought. Nature's physics seems to 'recapitulate' certain forms, from the microscopic 'spirochete' organism like syphilis, to a spiral nebula at the macrocosmic level. Ever notice how certain mollusks like clams look remarkably like vaginal labia? There seems to be a 'lawfulness' about how nature forms, so why not a frugal and efficient lawfulness? Conservation of energy, entropy, even the practical effect of gravity (keeping things 'on the ground' long enough for things to evolve) all seem to be part of the 'script.'

From the unknown conditions following the Big Bang, to the formation of the first 'particles' to the first formation of 'atoms' (and hence matter from pure energy), the universe continued to manifest increased complexity. A GUT would possibly result in, or be a consequence of, our understanding of earlier conditions of the physical universe, which manifested different physics than the colder universe of today.

I like to entertain the notion that the very Ideas in the Mind of God, passed out of Him through a Singularity (the point where He withdrew His Infinite Being - a Kabbalistic idea), and manifested as the Big Bang and its subsequent history (His-story). The universe is created in the 'image and likeness' of God's Nature, (with something of God's Essence in the Heart of Hearts of Compassionate Human Beings). A Grand Unified Theory would manifest not only parsimony, but would partake of the aspect of Oneness that is of the nature of Ultimate Reality.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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