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InvisibleShroomismM
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Science as a vice
    #3397326 - 11/23/04 09:44 AM (12 years, 17 days ago)

A lot of time I see people using science as a crutch, touting it as the ultimate truth. While I recognize science as a very important path in our development as a species, I see a very critical error in holding so strong to it and not remaining open to new ideas and change. Science has been changed a thousand times in the past, as new 'facts' come to the surface into common knowledge. Why, not even 500 years ago it was scientifically accepted that the Sun revolved around the Earth. You could drill holes in people's heads to release the demons.

So what makes everyone so confident that science is so perfect right now? I'd be more inclined to question science than to blindly follow it. Especially in this age of information and technology, it becomes increasingly important to have the correct facts. What happens if you base an entire system on a foundation that is not accurate? hmm...

If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts.
- Albert Einstein




Now I acknowledge there are those of us that are using science for good.. with an open heart and mind.. but I see people using science almost as a weapon, and it saddens me. Why must science imply a condescending attitude towards "thinking outside the box-ers" that I so often see.. why does modern science demand one to automatically debunk everything not within the range of 'normal'. I see much bias.. very little objectivity.

What I would ideally like to see is a merging of science and spirituality. A self-correcting system that approaches science humbly and with the knowledge that we are all spiritual beings first and foremost. This would solve a lot of problems and dissent among the two sides. It would also do wonders for both science and spirituality.

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.
Albert Einstein, "Science, Philosophy and Religion: a Symposium", 1941



The truth is that science is still in its infancy. Especially when you get into things like quantum astrophysics, mechanics, physics.. you can't be so sure you are dealing with absolutes. We don't have it all figured out yet people. Though I do still see people using science as their ultimate crutch, falling back on it when creativity fails them.. using it to smugly gloat that through their system of science, you can't prove in the existence of aliens or trans-dimensional energy systems of what have you, and to prove those things to them, you may only use their system of science. You see what I'm getting at?

It can certainly be a catch-22, a double-edged sword. People, science must evolve if we are going to evolve as a species. This is not 312 BC. We have learned a lot, come a long way, but that doesn't mean we should be so arrogant and cocky about our (sketchy) form of science, that can change at any moment with the arrival of new facts or information. Don't be so quick to use it as your only means of logic, because it may all come crashing down without notice. Use that brain you've been given.

Let's focus on developing a spiritual science.. one that considers the facts from every angle. Is rational and objective, and does not discredit things so easily. A science that focuses on and flows with, the cycles of nature. It's time to evolve.


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: Science as a vice [Re: Shroomism]
    #3397367 - 11/23/04 09:57 AM (12 years, 17 days ago)

I agree.


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Science as a vice [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3397384 - 11/23/04 10:03 AM (12 years, 17 days ago)

A lot of people think of me as a very non-scientific person.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

I have a very logical mind, however it is my nature (as an aqaurius and as myself) to come up with new concepts and ideas that shatter the old mold. I absolutely despise conforming to someone elses system of thought. It is my nature to think outside the box, and much of my thought is focused on humanity and unity.

So when you see me arguing against science, it is only that system of science which I am so vehemently against. Science itself, as a pure untouched entity of questions and logic and rational thinking.. I love, and use it all the time.

-be ye as a young child.. big eyes full of wonder, where the world is mysterious and exciting - THATS science


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: Science as a vice [Re: Shroomism]
    #3397394 - 11/23/04 10:05 AM (12 years, 17 days ago)

Same. :wink: I hear you man, definitely.


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: Science as a vice [Re: Shroomism]
    #3397405 - 11/23/04 10:09 AM (12 years, 17 days ago)

If science can debunk things then I think it should. After all, if something can be debunked then it is not true.

I think that science is actually fairly open to new ideas. Quantum physics contradicts relativity, if I remember correctly. Science just doesn't like to make a "best guess". It's total proof or nothing.


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Science as a vice [Re: deafpanda]
    #3397419 - 11/23/04 10:21 AM (12 years, 17 days ago)

That's all well and good.. but science is not open enough to new ideas.

Also, just because you can debunk something, does not make it untrue. You can debunk someone or something by lying, or slandering them.. it may not be true.. but as long as the general populace believes your lies than the debunking is successful. Debunk = v : expose while ridiculing; especially of pretentious or false claims and ideas.. one can make things up, or twist the facts. It's just a matter of 'exposing' the person or idea, and making them appear to look foolish or nonsensical through a variety of methods.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Science as a vice [Re: Shroomism]
    #3397437 - 11/23/04 10:30 AM (12 years, 17 days ago)

Also, just because you can debunk something, does not make it untrue

false claims and ideas

What part of that are you haveing trouble understanding?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Edited by Diploid (11/23/04 10:37 AM)


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: Science as a vice [Re: Shroomism]
    #3397458 - 11/23/04 10:37 AM (12 years, 17 days ago)

That is not what debunking means. Debunking means disproving. If someone convinces others wrongly of something's falsehood then that's not debunking, that's deceiving.

Blame the people who manipulate science, not science itself.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Science as a vice [Re: deafpanda]
    #3397463 - 11/23/04 10:40 AM (12 years, 17 days ago)

If someone convinces others wrongly of something's falsehood then that's not debunking, that's deceiving.

This is what you're doing when you claim something exists that has no basis in fact, and which has never been seen, and which you can't provide even indirect evidence of. Deceiving.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Science as a vice [Re: deafpanda]
    #3397474 - 11/23/04 10:43 AM (12 years, 17 days ago)

That's what I'm saying.. the people who are manipulating science.. I'm not blaming science itself. I'm talking about the people perverting it.

learn to read
Debunk = expose while ridiculing, ESPECIALLY of pretentious or false claims and ideas. Not necessarily..especially. false claims or ideas is not a pre-requisite for debunking. You can debunk something that is true, or someone that is telling the truth, by defacing their character, and a vast number of ways. What part of that do you not understand?


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Science as a vice [Re: Diploid]
    #3397481 - 11/23/04 10:44 AM (12 years, 17 days ago)

Facts change.


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: Science as a vice [Re: Shroomism]
    #3397491 - 11/23/04 10:47 AM (12 years, 17 days ago)

I did read that, but I disagreed with that definition of debunking.

From m-w.com:

Main Entry: de?bunk
Pronunciation: (")dE-'b&[ng]k
Function: transitive verb
: to expose the sham or falseness of <debunk a legend>
- de?bunk?er noun

There's nothing about ridiculing in there. It is necessary using this definition that the thing being debunked is false. Otherwise it is not being debunked.

Okay I just found another definition that does mention ridicule, but again it supports my view that something being debunked must be false.
From dictionary.com:

To expose or ridicule the falseness, sham, or exaggerated claims of: debunk a supposed miracle drug.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Science as a vice [Re: Shroomism]
    #3397502 - 11/23/04 10:51 AM (12 years, 17 days ago)

Facts change.

Well, I'll agree with this with a qualified "ok". But, let's discount the possibility that any given 'fact' could change in the future, I stipulate that it may.

What fact can you provide now to support your claim that a Photon Band exists? And don't go all crazy giving me a half-million Google links; anyone can make an uncontested web site. That's not good enough.

Truth can withstand scrutiny. If your claims are true, then they should be able to stand up to the light of critical analysis. If they can't then they're not true.

Your claims about scientific evidence for the Photon Band, to be seen as valid, must be subjected to scrutiny by people who have studied the field of science in which the claim is made: astronomy. There are numerous texts, and journals (magazines) about astronomy published all the time. I have diligently looked for a report of the Photon Band, really, I have. I haven't found a single mention other than in New Age (non-science) magazines.

If your claim is true, then it should have been seen by the people whose life work is to look for exactly these kinds of things; people who would probably win the Nobel Prize were they to discover a Photon Band as you describe. Why haven't any of them done so?

Does this make sense to you?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Edited by Diploid (11/23/04 11:01 AM)


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OfflineSource
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Re: Science as a vice [Re: Diploid]
    #3397903 - 11/23/04 01:01 PM (12 years, 17 days ago)

The way I look at it, science can help us to understand the objective world but can say nothing about the observer that witnesses the objective world. Understanding the observer is in the realm of mysticism.

So, 'render unto ceasar that which is ceasar's (let science explain the objective world) and render unto God that which is God's (discover your identity as the pure wareness which is the ground of being of the objective world). Please excuse the crude reference.

I don't think that science and spirituality need to fight, unless one begins to encroach into the realm of the other.


--------------------
What you're searching for is what's searching.


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: Science as a vice [Re: Source]
    #3398011 - 11/23/04 01:34 PM (12 years, 17 days ago)

I agree.  As you basically said, science is never bad unless it is not science :smile:


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Science as a vice [Re: Shroomism]
    #3398013 - 11/23/04 01:34 PM (12 years, 17 days ago)

So what makes everyone so confident that science is so perfect right now?

Nothing, though I think you already know how I view science :wink:

Science is not an END. It isn't even really a means to an end. It's just a process, though one which is (I must admit) dear to my heart.

If anyone, anyone, decides to give up this fact (that science is an ONGOING process) and believe that science is "The Answer"...they are not following true science. They have made a religion out of a tool.

That being said...I have not found ANYTHING in my life that provides a better or more CONSISTENT way of understanding the world around me than to use the Scientific Method.


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Science as a vice [Re: Shroomism]
    #3398209 - 11/23/04 02:16 PM (12 years, 17 days ago)

Science has been changed a thousand times in the past, as new 'facts' come to the surface into common knowledge. Why, not even 500 years ago it was scientifically accepted that the Sun revolved around the Earth. You could drill holes in people's heads to release the demons.

What science did they use to come to those conclusions?
None. Those were things that people made up or believed.

After ACTUAL science came about, we used the analysis of data to learn that the earth revolves around the sun. They weren't doing that before.

That is the fundamental difference in the knowledge we have today, and the knowledge we had in the past.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Science as a vice [Re: deafpanda]
    #3398218 - 11/23/04 02:19 PM (12 years, 17 days ago)

I agree. As you basically said, science is never bad unless it is not science

Precisely. When arguing with someone who says science isn't perfect, usually the examples they give are when people don't properly use science.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Science as a vice [Re: Shroomism]
    #3398313 - 11/23/04 02:38 PM (12 years, 17 days ago)

Why must science imply a condescending attitude towards "thinking outside the box-ers" that I so often see.. why does modern science demand one to automatically debunk everything not within the range of 'normal'. I see much bias.. very little objectivity.

The nature of science is to be highly critical. Thousands of new ideas are proposed everyday, and it takes time and money to investigate them.

The proposal of new ideas is not science. Science is the analysis, testing, and criticism of new ideas.

So when a scientist sees a new idea that doesn't really make any sense, and he tears it apart, he's really giving it the same treatment he would to a good idea, only he's found many flaws in it.

Many scientists would tell you that if there's absolutely no way to test your hypothesis, then there's no way that it can be analyzed scientifically.

A self-correcting system that approaches science humbly and with the knowledge that we are all spiritual beings first and foremost.

Why should scientists start making assumptions about the universe that are unprovable? If I propose that spirituality is nothing more than a quirk of human psychology and will not offer us any clues into the actual nature of reality, where can you show me that this has been disproven to the point that all scientists need to completely abandon the idea and adhere to your view of what spirituality is?

Let's focus on developing a spiritual science.. one that considers the facts from every angle. Is rational and objective, and does not discredit things so easily. A science that focuses on and flows with, the cycles of nature. It's time to evolve.

How do we do that?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Science as a vice [Re: Shroomism]
    #3398327 - 11/23/04 02:41 PM (12 years, 17 days ago)

Vice
n.

1.a. An evil, degrading, or immoral practice or habit.
b. A serious moral failing.
c. Wicked or evil conduct or habits; corruption.
2. Sexual immorality, especially prostitution.
3.a. A slight personal failing; a foible.
b. A flaw or imperfection; a defect.
4. A physical defect or weakness.
5. An undesirable habid, such as crib-biting, in a domestic animal.
6. a. A character representing generalized or particular vice in English morality plays.
b. A jester or buffoon.

Please explain the correlation of science and immoral habits (vice).


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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