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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Why debunk?
#7838937 - 01/06/08 11:31 AM (16 years, 26 days ago) |
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Would the world really be better without:
UFOs
Xtenze male enhancement
Nessie
Ghosts
Creationism
and so on?
Myths and fantasy stories can be fun, but let's look at this from another angle:
Would the War on Drugs be possible if everyone had the facts and used critical thinking?
Would World War II have been possible if ALL countries put aside emotionalism and used critical thinking?
What about tribalism, racism and sexism?
Would there be a hundred thousand religions?
Would Jonestown and Heaven's Gate have been possible?
Add to this list the almost limitless stupid, destructive things that man has done to himself and others.
How many could using straightforward logic and clear thinking have prevented? What could not have been prevented?
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



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The strange thing about your post is that you say we should put aside emotionalism but your whole argument is an appeal to emotions, equating those with specific beliefs to World War II. Do you have a critical argument to make?
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OrgoneConclusion
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Not hating, not killing, not imprisoning, not wasting billions of dollars seem like practical and not emotional issues to this poster.
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Asante
Mage


Registered: 02/06/02
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Quote:
How many could using straightforward logic and clear thinking have prevented?
You do realize you're one of the biggest Believers yourself right?
What if logic is only a crutch to cope with a reality we cannot possibly understand? What if logic itself was incorrect?
What did Nessie ever do to you  I don't think the complete annihilation of mankind on all imaginable levels can be blamed on a charming legend about a friendly sheep-stealing sea dragon that resides in a lake.
Mankind would be lost without its believers and dreamers, that;s where we'd be. There would be no arts and music. Logic can be every bit as much a prison as other beliefs can be.
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
Edited by Asante (01/06/08 11:59 AM)
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Why debunk? [Re: Asante]
#7839032 - 01/06/08 12:05 PM (16 years, 26 days ago) |
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Quote:
What if logic itself was incorrect?
Then, silly Wiccan, we would not be communicating in this fashion.
Here is a question/issue that you may identify with. Is gay-bashing more likely to occur from using critical thinking or from emotionalism and borrowed beliefs?
Straight answer (no pun intended) please!
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Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea


Registered: 04/27/03
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This post doesn't appear very logical or clear thinking?
From UFOs to world war 2?
People reporting what they perceive is very different from a man wanting to rule the world by violence.
What your really saying is if everyone thought the same then we'd all get along?
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AlteredAgain
Visual Alchemist



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I suspect that Orgone wouldn't mind a world full of robots. 
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OrgoneConclusion
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Quote:
People reporting what they perceive is very different from a man wanting to rule the world by violence.
First off, people do NOT merely report what they perceive (a light in the sky), but what they conclude (it was from another star system).
A misperception (Jews caused 1930 Germany's ills) is a misperception (military flares are an alien mothership). Both are the result of flawed thinking.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Quote:
I suspect that Orgone wouldn't mind a world full of robots.
A perfect example of a flawed conclusion.
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AlteredAgain
Visual Alchemist



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Lighten up mister.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Quote:
What your really saying is if everyone thought the same then we'd all get along?
Depends what you mean by thought the same. If we all knew that 1 + 1 = 2 and other basic math, then you could purchase an item anywhere and get correct change. How horrible would that be?
If we all used a similar alphabet, words, definitions and rules of grammar, we could more or less communicate.
If we used a common system of music notation, I could write a song and you could play it. Or I could export a MIDI file to you and you could play it. I could even send you a CD and it would likely play on your computer.
Yes, similarity and commonly accepted rules, weights, measurements, & protocols makes for a lifeless robotic world.
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Asante
Mage


Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 86,795
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Quote:
Is gay-bashing more likely to occur from using critical thinking or from emotionalism and borrowed beliefs?
Counter-question: are raisin buns more likely to occur from critical thinking or from baking?
Critical thinking doesn't bash gays, but it doesn't bake bread either. Critical thinking cannot do it all. For the average person it is best to walk the middle road, and have a bit of everything but not too much or too little of any single one.
Quote:
Then, silly Wiccan, we would not be communicating in this fashion.
Why not? We could be flat out wrong. Our eyes give us an interpretation of what light can do with objects, and our ears give an impression what soundwaves are like. All we have are approximations of what might be going on, we have not one solid truth so everything is subject to interpretation.
Would you agree that your highest truth could be in error?
Because that Orgone is an even greater good than the logic and rationality you so defend: If we all could admit that our highest truth might be a falsehood, only then can real critical thinking commence.
And the follies of radicalized belief AND radicalized logic could well come undone. Instead of radicalizing, we are adopting a more neutral stance and see ourselves and our actions in a more moderate light.
Once people entertain the notion that none of us can have certainty of absolute truth, they won't strap on the bomb belt of religion, and won't logic together Final Solutions for societal issues.
Admit to yourself that anything you hold as true may be false and then meet the people with the most exotic beliefs as an equal, instead of from an ivory tower.
As we may all be wrong, we are all equals and we can all come down from our ivory towers. If the entire would would "snap out of it" like that the world peace you and I so crave for will become a reality.
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea


Registered: 04/27/03
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Quote:
First off, people do NOT merely report what they perceive (a light in the sky), but what they conclude (it was from another star system).
Now your saying everyone comes to the same conclusion?
If a strange being appears then saying its ET is really a fair conclusion.
If you see a strange being getting out of a highly advanced craft, what would you call it? A jellyfish 
How can you complain about conclusions when you conclude that they are all lying or delusional?
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OrgoneConclusion
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My ex-girlfriend woke-up at 3 AM, saw an almond-eyed alien hovering over her shortly after reading Strieber's "Communion" and then the alien disappeared when she sat up.
The MOST likely conclusion is... ?
Did you ever read Diploid's post on the flock of birds that nearly everyone with him (dozens of witnesses) declared to be a UFO and held fast to that conclusion even when he showed them clear evidence to the contrary.
This tells us what about the human psyche?
If you want a REAL discussion, then please address these situations before returning to your normally scheduled program.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Quote:
AlteredAgain said: Lighten up mister.
How about making a decent debate then. You make a statement (of sorts) and you get a coherent answer and you start to whine.
Get over yourself.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Cracka_X
Spiritual Dirt Worshipper




Registered: 01/25/03
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whoaaaaaaaa you blew my mind!
-------------------- The best way to live is to be like water For water benefits all things and goes against none of them It provides for all people and even cleanses those places a man is loath to go In this way it is just like Tao ~Daodejing
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Cracka_X
Spiritual Dirt Worshipper




Registered: 01/25/03
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Loc: Swamp
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Quote:
Ego Death said:
What your really saying is if everyone thought the same then we'd all get along?
I thought he was saying we should keep our minds open.
-------------------- The best way to live is to be like water For water benefits all things and goes against none of them It provides for all people and even cleanses those places a man is loath to go In this way it is just like Tao ~Daodejing
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Well if I had to base my answer as to "why debunk" on the responses in this thread I would have to say so I can maintain a slight belief that humans are the tiniest bit rational. 
Keep up the good work OC.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (01/06/08 03:12 PM)
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Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea


Registered: 04/27/03
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I wouldn't declare an imagined alien real though.
I woke up in the night and felt someone sit on my bed, I turned on the light and nobody was there. My conclusion? Dream states are powerful.
I saw ghosts while tripping on shrooms. Conclusion? I was tripping.
But does this mean we disregard the entire alien phenomena? Doing so is not logic in my eyes.
I saw a big saucer with lights all around it land in a field, my friends saw it, we found physical evidence. My conclusion? What I saw was as real as I am.
Your right, some people are not very good at discerning reality but that doesn't give you the right to say that everybody apart from yourself is not good at discerning reality.
Theres many highly skeptical and objective people that once studied the phenomena in depth are forced to say "something real is happening".
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Your right, some people are not very good at discerning reality but that doesn't give you the right to say that everybody apart from yourself is not good at discerning reality.
Do you just make shit up as you go along?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Visionary Tools



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Re: Why debunk? [Re: Asante]
#7840098 - 01/06/08 03:24 PM (16 years, 26 days ago) |
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Quote:
Wiccan_Seeker said:
Quote:
How many could using straightforward logic and clear thinking have prevented?
You do realize you're one of the biggest Believers yourself right?
What if logic is only a crutch to cope with a reality we cannot possibly understand? What if logic itself was incorrect?
Wiccan, most times I'm not in disagreement with you, but criticism of logic, or any process, without demonstrating a superior/alternative process is the philosophical equivalent of fucking with someone. It's not nice. Logic has been around for thousands of years, even before some Greek guys decided to name it "logic", and has stood the test of time. We would have found out if it was wrong by now.
Now, by wrong, that's a big question. Logic cannot be applied to every situation, but where it is applicable, it is good.
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Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea


Registered: 04/27/03
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What?
Thats clearly OC's opinion. No mater what evidence I present him with he sticks to the they are all delusional argument.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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It is not "clearly" his opinion, it is yours. He never said any such thing. How about you trying to be a little more rational in your posting.
Your "evidence".
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea


Registered: 04/27/03
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I can only go on what he displays. What he says in response to me.
What the hell else am I supposed to think.
If someone tells me they are white then I can only assume they are either white or lying.
You can laugh all you want at what astronauts see or what radars corroborate but I trust them over your opinion.
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Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea


Registered: 04/27/03
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Anyway how would you know what has been said between me and OC? WTF?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
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I can only go on what he displays. What he says in response to me.
What the hell else am I supposed to think.
You can make up any defensive stance you want to in regards to him but he is debating issues here and debunking your so called "evidence" The fact that he successfully disputes your weak position is not him saying he is the only logical person here. You are just whining and being defensive. Get over it.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea


Registered: 04/27/03
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I don't think my position is weak though.
If highly qualified people that work in the field see UFOs, surely there opinions are better than 1 person on the shroomery.
Surely a radar is not going to lie?
If I am weak for thinking this then yes I am weak.
Defensive, weak, whining - all ego words.
How about response, poor argument, persistent?
Edited by Ego Death (01/06/08 04:21 PM)
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falcon


Registered: 04/01/02
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How many could using straightforward logic and clear thinking have prevented?
None.
What could not have been prevented?
All of those things happened.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Quote:
Surely a radar is not going to lie?
I was a radar tech in the US Navy for 3 years and had a SECRET clearance on a nuclear-equipped cruiser. Anyone else here with a similar qualification?
Radar neither tells the truth nor lies, it sends a brief, but powerful microwave pulse then 'listens' for so many milliseconds and approximates the returned energy on a screen. The returned signal passes through many stages of HIGHLY-TUNED rf and digital processing.
Rain, clouds, temperature inversions or mistuned receivers can all paint erroneous pictures. I have seen faulty equipment paint pictures that were hundreds of miles off and give erroneous speed readings.
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Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea


Registered: 04/27/03
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Anything can have error, but whats the chances that 2 separate radar stations will have the same error at the same time and corroborate with f-16 lock-ons and pilot visuals plus hundreds of ground witnesses that also produce photo and video?
See Belgium mass sighting.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Which of the following is true?
Radar accurately tells the operator:
1. The size of the object.
2. The material from which the object is made.
3. The shape of the object.
4. The point of origin of the object.
5. Who or what is manning the object.
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AnastomosisJihad
Hominid



Registered: 01/01/08
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Loc: Ohio
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The Nazi extermination thing was completely logical, coldblooded even.
If they managed to pull it off, leaving only white people to populate the planet, then there would not be all the immigration and racial violence problems we have today. There would be very few bad neighborhoods, fewer violent crimes, no fighting in the middle east, higher test scores all around... It was all very calculated and rational.
That damn sure did not make it right!
-------------------- come together
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OrgoneConclusion
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Once again, their basic premise was wrong: that the Jews were responsible for Germany's economic woes in the 20s and 30s.
Garbage in: garbage out.
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Rose
Devil's Advocate



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/Me yawns...
Debunking bullshit is the only way to... ... wait for it... ... DEBUNK BULLSHIT!
History has shown that people who follow and LEARN FROM the science and the KNOWLEDGE OF THEIR TIME are more accurate than... ... wait for it... ... People who don't.
'nuff said.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
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It might amuse you to debunk things. You might feel a sense of accomplishment, but in the end it is as meaningless as the things that you are debunking. There is no social service performed....your just passing the time.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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OrgoneConclusion
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The War on Drugs is more likely to end if:
A. Nothing is done.
B. The public is educated and learns to apply critical thinking to the financial and social ramifications of having the largest percentage prison population in the world?
Are you saying that education has no value? Does critical thinking have no value?
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
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To most Americans drugs are a big bugaboo. They don't want to end the war on drugs. They support it.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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PhanTomCat
Teh Cat....



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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: Did you ever read Diploid's post on the flock of birds that nearly everyone with him (dozens of witnesses) declared to be a UFO and held fast to that conclusion even when he showed them clear evidence to the contrary. . This tells us what about the human psyche?
Dozens....? Exaggeration is also part of the human psyche, for some reason.... But then also, memories fade, and bits of info are sometimes manifested and included upon recall - this is understood....
I looked up Diploid's post because I DID remember it, I just didn't remember a defined number of people in his group.... I found two, a little less than 2.5 years apart....
From 2005:
Quote:
Diploid said: I was out one night a few years ago camping with some friends in northern Florida when a............. . Note that EVERYONE in the group, including me, saw a clear triangular outline of a craft which turned out to be an optical illusion resulting from the brain's tendency to fill in the blanks when a piece of a pattern is missing. . Had these birds changed direction before we could identify them, I'm sure several in our group would have jumped to a wrong conclusion and sung their story of a near miss with visiting aliens for the rest of their lives.
Link
From 2007:
Quote:
Diploid said: I was deep in the Florida Everglades last night photographing nocturnal birds with a new lens I bought for that purpose. As usual, there was a small, friendly crowd of bird watchers there. . It was close to new moon, so it was very dark. Suddenly one of the other bird watchers starts yelling and pointing at something in the sky. We all looked and saw the bizarre object. "It's an alien ship!", several people exclaimed. . I was completely baffled by the irregular triangle of dim lights traveling slowly in perfect formation. It made no sound even though it seemed to be fairly close. The lights blinked randomly, dimming then getting brighter in no discernible pattern. The edges of the triangle could be seen faintly glowing.
Link
I am left to wonder how "dozens" of people were extrapolated out of "a small crowd", and "a group"..... And how one could be baffled the second time around with something so distinctly memorable.... 
>^;;^<
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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You failed to answer my question, oh great stalker.
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Rose
Devil's Advocate



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Quote:
Huehuecoyotl said: It might amuse you to debunk things. You might feel a sense of accomplishment, but in the end it is as meaningless as the things that you are debunking. There is no social service performed....your just passing the time.
Woah... wait a minute.
If you debunk something you're JUST passing the time? (BTW... it is you'RE not your.)
Debunking performs NO social service?
BULLSHIT.
The Earth IS round.
Aryans are NOT better than Jews.
Apples fall DOWN from trees.
... etc.
Debunking is the world's way of removing BULLSHIT from the lexicon of man.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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I was counting the head lice on the observers...
My bad - was not trying to exaggerate, but my memory is going. Um, what was I writing about?
The point remains whether it was 'several' or more, that people see something nebulous and instantly fill in the blanks with what they WANT TO SEE.
There was certainly many thousands who erroneously identified the Phoenix Lights military flares as UFOs / alien craft. Is that more than dozens?
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PhanTomCat
Teh Cat....



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Yes, that is more than dozens - in that situation.... And sorry for counting the lice, I was just into the debunking spirit of the thread....! 
UFO's, they were (to the people viewing them).... Alien craft, was one possibility out of many.... When we see something for the first time, we try to remember it's likeness to something we have seen in the past.... When we don't recognize something as being seen from "here", it is easy for some to conclude that it is from "there".... There is a lot more "there" that we have never seen than there is "here".... And I think sci-fi movies play a roll in some of those recognitions.... 
>^;;^<
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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Asante
Mage


Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 86,795
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Quote:
their basic premise was wrong: that the Jews were responsible for Germany's economic woes in the 20s and 30s.
No, you attribute them with a line of reasoning what is favorable to your stance That's one of logic's biggest flaws, more on that later on.
Quote:
The Third Reich architects figured: . We want the unconditional support of the German people. The German people, on the whole, hate the Jews. Solution: we get rid of the Jews. . The Jews have a significant role in banking and industry. We need control of banking and industry for our war effort. Solution: we get rid of the Jews. . Getting rid of the Jews and the war effort costs a lot of money. The Jews have posessions and real estate that will leave with them. Solution: we part the Jews with their wealth in getting rid of them. . We can't dump millions of Jews into lands we seek to occupy in the near future. Solution: we get rid of them without exile, by putting them in internment camps. . If we let them stay in camps they eventually will cost us money and cost us money, and ten or so million prisoners tie up a lot of resources. Solution: enhance the death rates in the camps. Feed them the bare minimum that keeps them going in slave labor. Save every buck we can. Exterminate the weak and surplus healthy. Eventually get rid of them all. Let's do it in secret where no one goes, like Poland. It's a dirty job but the people will thank us later and after the camps are wrapped up no one will ever know what it was like..
That's some Nazi logic, no emotions involved whatsoever, in fact emotions would only get in the way of the Final Solution.
Quote:
Garbage in: garbage out.
That's the major flaw of logic.
Quote:
LOGIC - if you have all necessary variables you can deduce the correct course of action.
The snag is that we will NEVER know if we have all the variables, so good logic can lead to perfectly undesirable results or completely backfire into the very opposite of what was intended. We don't even know if for all problems there are solutions that a human brain is capable of thinking up. We don't even know if there is free will at all, logical reasoning could be a side effect of whats going on instead of the driving force.
Aww but surely logic is the pillar we can hold onto?
THERE IS NO SUCH THING. There are no absolute certainties. There is no solid point to hold onto - there is just assumption, belief in those assumtions and the reliability of the effects of those assumptions.
We have five senses that approximate an ultimate reality, if indeed it does exist. We have logic to approximate a proper solution for given problems if this in fact is at all possible. We have emotion to help us decide whether the results of our logic feel like the right thing to do. Emotion also serves as a safeguard against bad logic, do not forget that.
Do your thing, but try to accept that it may well be that all our mental somersaults are entirely beside the point, like bloodletting if someone faints.
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea


Registered: 04/27/03
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"Debunking" theres never been any proof of anything when something here has been allegedly "debunked".
All we have is argument and counter-argument. This is a circle that endlessly goes round.
This is because what we talk about has no definitive answer yet. When neither side can prove 100% what they are saying then no debunking or proof can ever occur.
We have likeliness based on evidence but likeliness is what were were arguing about in the first place! 
Yeah, whomever said it was done to pass the time is the most completely correct. Really its just fun to debate, part of the human experience, part of growth, of learning. At least it is for me.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
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Quote:
Ego Death said: I don't think my position is weak though.
If highly qualified people that work in the field see UFOs, surely there opinions are better than 1 person on the shroomery.
Surely a radar is not going to lie?
If I am weak for thinking this then yes I am weak.
Defensive, weak, whining - all ego words.
How about response, poor argument, persistent?
You do realize that this alien thing has been going on just about forever. Yet, like Bigfoot, everything eventually turns out to be hoax, or inconclusive. This IMO is a human drama much more than an alien one. Humans it seems need meaning; if God is dead then we need aliens, or enlightenment and on and on down the line.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Some folks need Castaneda-like magic wherein people turn into crows, bilocate and jump off high cliffs uninjured...
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Quote:
"Debunking" theres never been any proof of anything when something here has been allegedly "debunked".
Phoenix Lights - multiple videos submitted by believers show the lights NOT to be over the city as claimed, but 50 miles away. They do not zoom off at high speed by slowly drift behind a mountain range.
Ed Walters of the famed Gulf Breeze Sightings/hoax is found to have models in his attic that exactly match the UFOs in his photos. He claims to be able to photograph them at will, but when given a SEALED camera from MUFON is unable to do so.
Famous UFO photo claimed to be authentic is shown to be a Hoover vacuum cleaner cannister.
Claimed bigfoot feces and hair are shown to to be that of a brown bear
Claimed 'authentic' crop circles are shown on video to be made by college students.
On and on it goes, but nothing dissuades the TB.
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Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea


Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 10,447
Loc: The War Machine
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OK, your entitled to your belief.
Difference is, I've been there first hand, I know its real, thats it.
You guys believe your speculation, I believe my first hand experience.
You won't believe me but if you guys are still alive when the truth comes out you will know then that I'm not delusional/lieing or fulfilling a religious void.
Just remember, its real, I've seen it, other people have seen it, many of us know its real and one day if your still here - you will too. 
Nothing personal but its sad when people have to use your experiences as a weapon against you. People try and demean me for reporting what I've seen. Yeah, it doesn't fit into a mainstream mindset but why should people lie just to be another sheep and go with the flock. I'm used to the laughing now, I don't care. To me it just shows me how spiritually and philosophically undeveloped that person actually is.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Quote:
People try and demean me for reporting what I've seen.
I have no idea what you may or may not have seen, but you repeatedly point to flawed sightings as back-up evidence.
Quote:
To me it just shows me how spiritually and philosophically undeveloped that person actually is
. Spiritual development has nothing to do with belief in aliens and your lashing out in this manner only further weakens your tenuous position.
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Asante
Mage


Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 86,795
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Re: Why debunk? [Re: Asante]
#7843021 - 01/07/08 10:47 AM (16 years, 25 days ago) |
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
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"it is spiritually undeveloped of somebody to disbelieve the existence of E.T.'s" = "it is a sin to disbelieve the existence of god baby Jesus and you shall feel their their wrath"
Come on Orgone, this is basic stuff
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: Some folks need Castaneda-like magic wherein people turn into crows, bilocate and jump off high cliffs uninjured...
Funny that Hue should turn to rock climbing these days. Do you think he is searching for Genaro?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Just remember, its real
Oh I will.
Nothing personal but its sad when people have to use your experiences as a weapon against you. People try and demean me for reporting what I've seen. Yeah, it doesn't fit into a mainstream mindset but why should people lie just to be another sheep and go with the flock. I'm used to the laughing now, I don't care. To me it just shows me how spiritually and philosophically undeveloped that person actually is.
And quit Whining, if people don't believe your stories. This is a debate forum. If you want to post without debate you know where the Mystery forum is. There's lots of aliens there I assure you.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (01/07/08 11:14 AM)
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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How can one named 'Ego Death' experience frustration, humiliation, embarassment and anger? Aren't those all qualities of one firmly entrenched in The Ego?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Interesting indeed.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: How can one named 'Ego Death' experience frustration, humiliation, embarassment and anger? Aren't those all qualities of one firmly entrenched in The Ego?
According to the medicine book, the ego is dead when the brain is... I dunno just testing the grounds
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Insinuating another poster is brain-dead is not nice.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
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We should burn all the medicine books I say
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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That's better. You have now graduated and may post freely in M&P.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
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I would go there but I'm afraid of the rough and apt competitors
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Just wear this and you will be OK.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
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I'd rather stay here and make your days a living hell
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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That's not a challenge - you're a woman.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
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I never intended to make a challenge, I was stating my point
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea


Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 10,447
Loc: The War Machine
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So a name = entire persona classified?
I'm interested in ego death, I've experienced it. That means my ego is destroyed? Of course not, I've never claimed that.
Isn't it hypocrisy to try and persecute someone for their name ego death whilst using an egotistical game to do so?
Course it is.
Your name? Conclusion? Very true, all you have is conclusion, no openness.
Flawed sightings?
I've yet to see you address any sightings other than the Phoenix lights. I'd say address the Belgium sighting but you've ignored it too many times for me to expect you to be able too.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Quote:
I've yet to see you address any sightings other than the Phoenix lights.
You have stated dozens of times that thousands of people involved in a sighting CANNOT ALL BE DELUSIONAL OR LYING and I easily refuted that.
You said "radar doesn't lie" and I refuted that.
Quote:
I'm interested in ego death,
But not interested in relinquishing negative aspects of ego?
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Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea


Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 10,447
Loc: The War Machine
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Quote:
Ego Death said: Anything can have error, but whats the chances that 2 separate radar stations will have the same error at the same time and corroborate with f-16 lock-ons and pilot visuals plus hundreds of ground witnesses that also produce photo and video?
See Belgium mass sighting.
But you ignore this?
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Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea


Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 10,447
Loc: The War Machine
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Quote:
Ego Death said: Anything can have error, but whats the chances that 2 separate radar stations will have the same error at the same time and corroborate with f-16 lock-ons and pilot visuals plus hundreds of ground witnesses that also produce photo and video?
See Belgium mass sighting.
But you ignore this?
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PhanTomCat
Teh Cat....



Registered: 09/07/04
Posts: 5,908
Loc: My Youniverse....
Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
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Quote:
Ego Death said: So a name = entire persona classified?
YES....!

>^;;^<
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Doesn't it bother you that there are now many millions (billions?) of video and photo equipped cell phones everywhere on the planet, yet STILL the best video and photos available are blurry, distant, could-be-anythings?
It's inconceivable to me that these powerful cameras able to shoot perfectly resolved video now blanket the planet but somehow none has caught a single undeniable flying thing that couldn't be from Earth? And the few sharp images we do have turned out be be photoshop hoaxes?
And UFOs were never reported in the year 1800. It wasn't until the advent of TV and alien visitation movies that people started insisting that Venus was a hovering UFO.
None of this shakes your faith one bit, does it?
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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straasha
Grandfaloon


Registered: 11/01/06
Posts: 117
Last seen: 1 year, 8 months
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I only read the original post, I'm replying to that, i have no clue whats been going on since... but anyhow.
What if? what if a certain portion of the irrationality in the world exists for perfectly ration reasons? what if understanding human nature and having an outcome in mind the creation of irrationality (or its exploitation)is a means? can a man be /more/ "rational" than another... posses more knowledge and technique to lead the other to whatever conclusion the first finds desirable?
Is it probable? is it profitable? (profit nor intended solely in legal tender)
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
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Re: Why debunk? [Re: straasha]
#7844375 - 01/07/08 04:23 PM (16 years, 25 days ago) |
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Quote:
what if a certain portion of the irrationality in the world exists for perfectly ration reasons?
I would like an example of what you're talking about abut so that I fully understand where you're coming from. Until now you just played with words, very similar to every rose has it's thorn... nice but impractical
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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straasha
Grandfaloon

Registered: 11/01/06
Posts: 117
Last seen: 1 year, 8 months
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well look, the leader of the Jehovah's witnesses cult lives in a fucking huge mansion with a cadre of servants that he is keeping warm for when Christ comes back, so the king of kings can reside there. What if he one day said fuck, I'd like a big ass mansion and what if he read some adam weishaupt "Oh, foolish man, what can you not be made to believe?" and thought to himself, fuck it, I'll give it a go... and through trial and error, ingenuity, deviousness and cunning he got good at it (making foolish man believe) and then he passed it on to his kids, cause every man loves his children (boys especially) and they through similar, possibly genetically inherited means (callousness, cunning and deviousness) refined his methods and techniques and passed it on to their kids and so on... are we certain the pope is catholic? how's that for a practical example missy
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
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Re: Why debunk? [Re: straasha]
#7844438 - 01/07/08 04:38 PM (16 years, 25 days ago) |
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Well since you called me missy I'll take the liberty of calling you young man  So young man, first of all you are giving a life example that doesn't need the "what if" introduction because the situation is already notorious. But making use of someone else's irrationality has NOTHING to do with the given subject.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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straasha
Grandfaloon

Registered: 11/01/06
Posts: 117
Last seen: 1 year, 8 months
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If i call you sweetheart will you call me honeybear?
I'm saying what if the world cant be without irrationality because it its not in the best interest of the rational... what if this irrationality is the expression of the will of rational minds... making the would it be better question non so much of a question anymore... if my supposition is true.
I don't know, maybe Jesus is coming back and expecting a jacuzzi, that why the what if.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Why debunk? [Re: Diploid]
#7847419 - 01/08/08 11:10 AM (16 years, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: Doesn't it bother you that there are now many millions (billions?) of video and photo equipped cell phones everywhere on the planet, yet STILL the best video and photos available are blurry, distant, could-be-anythings?
It's inconceivable to me that these powerful cameras able to shoot perfectly resolved video now blanket the planet but somehow none has caught a single undeniable flying thing that couldn't be from Earth? And the few sharp images we do have turned out be be photoshop hoaxes?
And UFOs were never reported in the year 1800. It wasn't until the advent of TV and alien visitation movies that people started insisting that Venus was a hovering UFO.
None of this shakes your faith one bit, does it?
word
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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straasha
Grandfaloon

Registered: 11/01/06
Posts: 117
Last seen: 1 year, 8 months
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Maybe the aliens only got here in the fifties Its a long trip you know... probably.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Why debunk? [Re: straasha]
#7847440 - 01/08/08 11:17 AM (16 years, 24 days ago) |
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You mean a long trip through an empty skull?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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straasha
Grandfaloon

Registered: 11/01/06
Posts: 117
Last seen: 1 year, 8 months
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Jesus Icelander, give the kids a break. You know theres a whole industry resting on this belief... publishers, event organizers... everyone's got to eat and feed their children.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Why debunk? [Re: straasha]
#7847485 - 01/08/08 11:28 AM (16 years, 24 days ago) |
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And what are you selling today puppetmaster?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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straasha
Grandfaloon

Registered: 11/01/06
Posts: 117
Last seen: 1 year, 8 months
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No need for sarcasm, but work away.
Jokes, put ons and windups usually. the kind of thing that you know you've bought when you hear someone laughing. Their fun! is my point.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
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Re: Why debunk? [Re: straasha]
#7847547 - 01/08/08 11:53 AM (16 years, 24 days ago) |
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*They're
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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straasha
Grandfaloon

Registered: 11/01/06
Posts: 117
Last seen: 1 year, 8 months
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They're
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story



Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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"Why Debunk"?
Because it's more fun to shoot down other people's beliefs than to have your own beliefs shot down?
And remember, kids - Only Punks Debunk
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea


Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 10,447
Loc: The War Machine
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Re: Why debunk? [Re: Diploid]
#7848333 - 01/08/08 02:42 PM (16 years, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: Doesn't it bother you that there are now many millions (billions?) of video and photo equipped cell phones everywhere on the planet, yet STILL the best video and photos available are blurry, distant, could-be-anythings?
It's inconceivable to me that these powerful cameras able to shoot perfectly resolved video now blanket the planet but somehow none has caught a single undeniable flying thing that couldn't be from Earth? And the few sharp images we do have turned out be be photoshop hoaxes?
And UFOs were never reported in the year 1800. It wasn't until the advent of TV and alien visitation movies that people started insisting that Venus was a hovering UFO.
None of this shakes your faith one bit, does it?
Of course not, its not faith, I have first hand experience so I know[. You have faith as you have faith in the idea that there is no reality to it yet you clearly have done no research...
Your point about the pictures is complete crap, new video and picture comes up all the time, yes some of its photoshopped crap but what about the stuff that isn't?

Heres a picture of the craft seen in the Belgium incident. Photographed hundreds of times, recorded, captured by two separate radar stations and chased into space by f-16's. I'm sure you will deny all this though to fit your idea's.
I really shouldn't speculate on the contents of these craft. I think considering the behaviour and technology that its likely they are not our craft (at least not all of them, todays military may well have advanced enough). For anyone thats done the research theres no question if highly advanced are flying around. The question is where do they come from? Everybody always says US military but theres a lot of evidence to suggest that they are not all military, see foo fighters.
If you take the abduction scenario at all seriously then thats another load of evidence that suggests these are not military. Explain what happened to all these people: Steven Michealak
Travis Walton
Hickson Parker
Barney Betty Hill
Bill Herman
1967-The Betty Andreasson Abduction
1968-The Buff Ledge Alien Abductions
1975-Abduction of Sergeant Moody
1976-An Alien Abduction in Stanford, Kentucky
1976-The Allagash Alien Abduction
Herbert Schirmer
1979-The Dechmont Woods Alien Abduction of Robert Taylor
1985-Alien Abduction of Whitley Strieber
1987-The Ilkley Moor Alien Photograph
Salter Abduction-the Benevolent Aliens
1989-The Manhattan Alien Abduction
1993-Kelly Cahill Alien Abduction
How can I have a reasonable debate with you, when you either know nothing of the phenomena or are just making up ideas to fit your perspective? You resort to ad hom persecution and laughter as a way of defending your arguements!
Why was nearly every space mission followed by UFO's? Debris doesn't cut it for every single mission and what was seen.
Why have so many professional MOD UFO investigators change their stance to believer after studing the phenonena properly? See MOD UFO Investigato Nick Pope, theres plenty more...
If you actually care for truth not just defending an idea then go and do some research.
When you guys can reasonably address some of these issues then I will listen. Saying "a radar can have errors" or "wheres the videos" is meaningless in the face of this epic phenomena and the vast amount of supporting data.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
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Your reply does NOT answer any of the questions posed to you
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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I have first hand experience so I know
Yeah, I've read your claim that an alien ship landed 50 feet in front of you and some friends. But none of you had a cell phone with you. And thousands of other such claimants also had no cell phones among them.
You know what? I don't believe you. 
Heres a picture of the craft seen in the Belgium incident.
Another fuzzy pic that could be anything. Nevermind that there were THOUSANDS of witnesses over many days. I guess they don't have cell phones in Belgium. But apparently they do have a lot of shitty cameras. 
abduction scenario
Your abduction stories? Yah, STORIES. With no physical evidence. No torn sphincter or ruptured hemorrhoid form the anal probe has ever been produced at a hospital.
Then again, alien KY Jelly might be really slippery.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Of course not, its not faith, I have first hand experience so I KNOW
Do I hear echos of Markos?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea


Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 10,447
Loc: The War Machine
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Quote:
How can I have a reasonable debate with you, when you either know nothing of the phenomena or are just making up ideas to fit your perspective? You resort to ad hom persecution and laughter as a way of defending your arguements!
Yea  
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Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea


Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 10,447
Loc: The War Machine
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Re: Why debunk? [Re: Diploid]
#7848738 - 01/08/08 04:05 PM (16 years, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
I'm sure you will deny all this though to fit your idea's.
Quote:
When you guys can reasonably address some of these issues then I will listen. Saying "a radar can have errors" or "wheres the videos" is meaningless in the face of this epic phenomena and the vast amount of supporting data.
Ok, Diploid, ok.
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Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea


Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 10,447
Loc: The War Machine
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I have.
What questions in specific would u like me to answer, that I missed?
I answer ANYTHING, unlike you guys with your assertions that are based on no experience, no research, bad logic and herd mentality.
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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What questions in specific would u like me to answer
Why aren't there any reports of alien abductions before the invention of TV and radio?
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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straasha
Grandfaloon


Registered: 11/01/06
Posts: 117
Last seen: 1 year, 8 months
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Re: Why debunk? [Re: Diploid]
#7848895 - 01/08/08 04:36 PM (16 years, 24 days ago) |
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Hey, i answered that one, because thats when the aliens arrived a bit coincidental i agree but what of it? they only found us in the fifties or maybe they only decided to visit then.
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Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea


Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 10,447
Loc: The War Machine
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Re: Why debunk? [Re: straasha]
#7848955 - 01/08/08 04:46 PM (16 years, 24 days ago) |
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_major_UFO_sightings
How would we know about them before TV and radio?
Theres data but of course its not as reliable as technological data but that goes hand in hand with the invention of technology 
What about societies that are not influenced by TV?
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=77Lk3BW1OL4
Anyway, how does one question make you disregard the entire phenomena?
What about everything else I posted? Do you assume that it must be all TV and radio delusions despite what I said about the Belgium incident etc.
Your just nit-picking and ignoring the bigger picture.
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straasha
Grandfaloon


Registered: 11/01/06
Posts: 117
Last seen: 1 year, 8 months
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HEY! I ANSWERED THAT QUESTION! are ya all just goin' to ignore me? it's pretty plausible
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Why debunk? [Re: straasha]
#7848981 - 01/08/08 04:50 PM (16 years, 24 days ago) |
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Well, see, that's my problem with the whole visitation thing. You need too many assumptions to make alien visitation make sense.
*First they travel faster than light, which is almost-certainly impossible.
*And if they can somehow manage that incredible feat, why can't they avoid radar detection?
*And how can it be that such an advanced civilization can't avoid being photographed.
*And if they don't really care about being photographed or seen on radar, then why don't they just land and say hello?
*Next they coincidentally arrive just as movies about UFOs are hitting the screen. Nevermind that the Earth is 5 billion years old. They just happened to pick 1950 or so.
*Then they have to be able to avoid detection by hundreds of astronomical telescopes all over the planet and even one in space.
*Now add to that the 100% lack of physical evidence.
*Then you have to accept that these things crash everywhere except in countries that wouldn't care about making the crash site available to journalists.
*And then you have to assume that none has ever crashed in Iran or some place like that that would LOVE the international attention such an incident would bring them.
And so on and so on...
Too many assumptions and too much faith is required.
When someone comes up with alien hair or skin or whatever that doesn't have DNA, then the skeptics will sit up and listen. Stories, fuzzy pics, and radar returns from temperature inversions and birds (which happen ALL THE TIME) don't impress us much.
Physical evidence. Is that really so much for an honest seeker of truth to demand before believing?
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Rose
Devil's Advocate



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Posts: 22,518
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Re: Why debunk? [Re: straasha]
#7848992 - 01/08/08 04:52 PM (16 years, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
straasha said: they only found us in the fifties
*40's
Google, "Foo Fighters"... not the band... the WWII sightings.
Also, there were sightings in Russia before WWII... but the ships were NOT saucer shaped... they looked like... CIGARS!
UFO's have been around for eons... imagine the prehistoric first sighting's of Haley's comet...
Flying saucer sightings began around the time Hollywood (and comic books) decided alien ships looked like saucers.
Coincidence?
I think not.
My point?
Do your research.
There have been UFO's for ages... but that does NOT make them alien.
I side with Diploid on this one but... welcome to The Shroomery straasha. It is nice to have a believer in our midst. Don't let us nay-sayers get you down... different opinions keep this forum lively.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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How would we know about them before TV and radio?
This is good. You answer my question with a question immediately after saying: "I answer ANYTHING, unlike you guys"
Well, I actually do answer questions posed to me in debate. The answer to your question is: the same way we know about 5,000 year old ancient China. Through historical writings.
There are no alien abductions in Chinese history that I'm aware of. None in ANY 100+ year old history, that I'm aware of.
Anyway, how does one question make you disregard the entire phenomena?
I start just with one question because you don't address them and it takes time to type them. When a pointed question is posed, you say shit like:
Quote:
Your just nit-picking
And true to form, I'm still waiting for an answer.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea


Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 10,447
Loc: The War Machine
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Re: Why debunk? [Re: Diploid]
#7849036 - 01/08/08 04:59 PM (16 years, 24 days ago) |
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Yet you have assumptions too, thats what you fail to see.
You assume faster than light travel is impossible. To assume this is to say that you have the ultimate understanding of our universe!
Maybe they can manage radar detection. Maybe some species do. Maybe some don't care. Who knows? Same for photos.
Quote:
Why don't they land and say hello
Thats just filled with assumption it itself and you consider that a reason against the phenomena?
Your reasoning is filled with assumptions but yet people keep coming forward with more and more evidence.
Nothing as clear cut as your asking for, especially in an unknown phenomena.
Fact is, something real is happening. Be it ET, government clones beings, inter dimensional beings - nobody knows.
But the whole advanced craft thing. The saucer thing. Its real. I've seen them. Thousands of other people have seen them. You have the right to disregard human testimony. I have the right to tell you your wrong.
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straasha
Grandfaloon


Registered: 11/01/06
Posts: 117
Last seen: 1 year, 8 months
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Maybe There's Someone Pulling You're Leg...
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Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea


Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 10,447
Loc: The War Machine
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Re: Why debunk? [Re: Diploid]
#7849057 - 01/08/08 05:03 PM (16 years, 24 days ago) |
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I say your just nit-picking because the same as OC's points, you take one aspect "radar" and that allows you to throw away everything???
I can't explain everything! All I can do is say look at the MASS of evidence.
You come up with one theory against it and that makes you ignore everything else.
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Rose
Devil's Advocate



Registered: 09/24/03
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Evidence is not proof. Or it would be called PROOF.
UFO's are not identified... or they'd be called IFO's.
Assuming a UFO is an alien ship is a leap of FAITH.
Evidence schmevidence!
I HAVE seen a UFO. And YES... I was sober.
I do NOT believe I saw an alien ship, but I honest-to-God DO NOT know WHAT I saw!
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea


Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 10,447
Loc: The War Machine
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Re: Why debunk? [Re: straasha]
#7849078 - 01/08/08 05:05 PM (16 years, 24 days ago) |
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Who's pulling my leg?
My first hand experience? The experience of separate cultures reporting remarkably similar phenomena? The separate radar towers? The pilots? The astronauts? The MOD's own investigator that turns believer?
We are all just delusional? If I'm gonna think like that, then every things a delusion from the second I wake each day.
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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You assume faster than light travel is impossible.
No, I assume faster than light is almost-certainly impossible.
See, this is the source of our conflict. You don't bother to CAREFULLY read what people say. You skim over things and invent something that was not said, then you twist it until you convince yourself that what was [not] said was nonsense.
Read carefully. Until you respect me enough to do that, I'm reluctant to keep engaging you. I take great care to communicate precisely, and that takes too much effort for someone who isn't even paying attention.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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straasha
Grandfaloon


Registered: 11/01/06
Posts: 117
Last seen: 1 year, 8 months
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Re: Why debunk? [Re: Rose]
#7849087 - 01/08/08 05:06 PM (16 years, 24 days ago) |
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Amen!
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Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea


Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 10,447
Loc: The War Machine
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Re: Why debunk? [Re: Diploid]
#7849120 - 01/08/08 05:10 PM (16 years, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
Read carefully. Until you respect me enough to do that, I'm reluctant to keep engaging you. It takes too much effort and you're not even paying attention.
I feel the same.
Whats the difference?
OK, so the majority of your mind is made up - BASED ON OUR CURRENT UNDERSTANDING.
So what if theres a small part of you that says it could be wrong?
Thats not enough, you really think you understand enough about this universe to be qualified to say its Quote:
almost-certainly impossible
?
I don't.
Theres infinite possibility. Extra-dimensional travel for instance? Even science recognizes that.
Then theres, maybe they are not ET. Maybe they planet hopped. Maybe they have incredibly long life spans. Who knows?
These theories don't stop me from seeing whats there.
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Rose
Devil's Advocate



Registered: 09/24/03
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Quote:
Ego Death said:
OK, so the majority of your mind is made up - BASED ON OUR CURRENT UNDERSTANDING.
?Que?
What OTHER understanding can we go by?
Our PAST understandings have evolved... and our FUTURE understandings have YET TO BE UNDERSTOOD... or even proven.
We live in the NOW.
Follow the PROOF... not the EVIDENCE.
Tomorrow may bring different proof... but until it does YOU ARE UNFOUNDED in your belief.
You have FAITH. Good for you. You have FAITH.
FAITH is NOT PROOF.
I want to believe... but I DON'T want to believe the nut cases.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
Edited by Rose (01/08/08 05:44 PM)
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Why debunk? [Re: Rose]
#7849392 - 01/08/08 05:51 PM (16 years, 24 days ago) |
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Notice how ED said thousands of observers cannot all be wrong/delusional at the same time. When I proved an incident and directly asked multiple times he FAILED to respond.
Take every single ED quote in this thread and a variation of it along with scathing anti-skeptic rhetoric was applied to:
The Gulf Breeze Sightings - debunked
The Face on Mars - debunked
The Roswell Incident - yes, debunked though UFO nuts will not let this go because of a newspaper headline.
The Marfa Lights - debunked
The Alien Autopsy - debunked
The Phoenix Lights - debunked
Now whether or not ED believed in any of these incidents is secondary. The banter between believers and skeptics was NEARLY IDENTICAL and when the skeptics prevailed, did the beleivers change their stance or thank the skeptics for opening their eyes?
Nope. The standard response was TO PRETEND IT NEVER HAPPENED and to grab on the the most current story and wave it about as factual.
Rinse. Repeat.
Skeptics: 3,106
Believers: 0
Can it be any more lopsided? Can you guys not get even one right?
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Rose
Devil's Advocate



Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 22,518
Loc: Mod not God
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
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... and don't get me started on conspiracy theorists...
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Why debunk? [Re: Rose]
#7849456 - 01/08/08 06:02 PM (16 years, 24 days ago) |
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Hey are you two in cahoots?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Rose
Devil's Advocate



Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 22,518
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Heh... I'm the Swiss. I keep MY opinion to myself.

Actually, I think I sit somewhere between you and Org.
I'm a middle-ground-skeptic.
You, Ice, sit in the shallow end...
And Org... he went off the deep end LONG ago.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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No, I gave up cross-dressing years ago.
--------------------
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Why debunk? [Re: Rose]
#7849582 - 01/08/08 06:24 PM (16 years, 24 days ago) |
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You, Ice, sit in the shallow end...
That's because Icelander likes to play with his ducky.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Rose
Devil's Advocate



Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 22,518
Loc: Mod not God
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: No, I gave up cross-dressing years ago.
When your shoulders are wider than your hips... it is hard to find a cute dress to wear.
May I suggest a blouse and a skirt?
Quote:
Icelander said: That's because Icelander likes to play with his ducky.
What the duck are you talking about?
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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PhanTomCat
Teh Cat....



Registered: 09/07/04
Posts: 5,908
Loc: My Youniverse....
Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
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Re: Why debunk? [Re: Diploid]
#7850007 - 01/08/08 07:51 PM (16 years, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: But none of you had a cell phone with you. And thousands of other such claimants also had no cell phones among them.
I am not on a side here, but I have to say that I have never owned a cell phone, and **most likely** never will.... And approaching my forties, I got my first camera a few months ago (and it ROX..!).... Has nothing to do with not being able to afford either, I just didn't....  Not completely unbelievable....
Directed towards no one.... And as I am seeing what happens when one makes a claim of any kind of "supernatural phenomenon", it makes it difficult to justify making a claim if I was to actually experience something "special".... I don't see anything positive out of telling anyone anything....
>^;;^<
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Why debunk? [Re: Diploid]
#7852445 - 01/09/08 05:45 AM (16 years, 23 days ago) |
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I've covered this before, but lemme do it again because it's apropos to the thread.
A while back some UFO proponents came across this ancient Egyptian (I think it was Egyptian) art which caused a stir because it was so persuasive.

Looks like ET, no? It does to me too. A genuine ancient painting of ET would go a long way toward convincing me, so I followed up on the claims to see if it was time to consider changing my mind about alien visitation.
Turns out, as it often seems to where UFO proponents are involved, they were bending the facts to support their pre-conclusions.
Here's a wider shot of the same painting:

Not ET, but a flower pot.
Here's a different image further illustrating my point:

Why all the fact bending, hoaxing, and lying? I don't get it. What benefit do the UFO people get from making up stories of paintings, landings, abductions, and all the rest?
I don't see this happening in any other area of research.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Why debunk? [Re: Diploid]
#7852712 - 01/09/08 09:05 AM (16 years, 23 days ago) |
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I don't see this happening in any other area of research.
Then you're not looking hard enough. I think this shit happens in every field of human endeavor.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Why debunk? [Re: Diploid]
#7852963 - 01/09/08 10:23 AM (16 years, 23 days ago) |
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Yeah, but the first image was that of an alien flower pot.
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learningtofly
Ancient Aliens



Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 15,105
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how do you debunk WWII? I can prove it happened.
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igwna
The Cap'n


Registered: 06/19/07
Posts: 8,016
Loc: New England, USA
Last seen: 9 years, 5 months
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Why not?
-------------------- I don't believe in cops, bosses, or politicians. Some call that anarchism. I call it having a fucking heart that beats.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
learningtofly said: how do you debunk WWII? I can prove it happened.
I didn't say it always happens in every issue. I said it happens in every field( including History.)
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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