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Invisibleredgreenvines
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debunking of myths and alternative truths * 1
    #26763048 - 06/21/20 01:05 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

This might be a good read for those who can wrap their heads around it.
https://www.skepticalscience.com/docs/Debunking_Handbook.pdf

The sorry truth is that once people have understood a falsehood, or myth, it becomes part of their memory system, and the debunking (of that myth) by virtue of repeating the myth in its description actually reinforces the memory of the myth and even if the person follows the logic, they leave with the memory of the myth reinforced.

You almost have to discuss it without mentioning the myth itself, just to enable the new idea to stick, and hope that somehow it worms around and unseats the belief of the myth over time.

It reminds me of how when you have a scary experience, trying to run away or resist the scary thing makes it loom larger in the mind.


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: debunking of myths and alternative truths [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26763131 - 06/21/20 01:42 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Like being Indentured to certain routes throughout neural pathways...but there is hope because we can go on living without always re-linking with the same routes we grew accustomed to traveling, if only we take to navigating the brain forest more skillfully you say?  Sounds good. I’ll check it out.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: debunking of myths and alternative truths [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26767387 - 06/21/20 07:37 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

yes like that
not easy but possible.


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: debunking of myths and alternative truths [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26773601 - 06/22/20 06:00 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:


The sorry truth is that once people have understood a falsehood, or myth, it becomes part of their memory system, and the debunking (of that myth) by virtue of repeating the myth in its description actually reinforces the memory of the myth and even if the person follows the logic, they leave with the memory of the myth reinforced.

You almost have to discuss it without mentioning the myth itself, just to enable the new idea to stick, and hope that somehow it worms around and unseats the belief of the myth over time.






Core fact: Rationalists hesitate to entertain the fact that they may be wrong.

Scientists routinely promote hypotheses to be facts.

The Myth: Science continues to improve our lives.

The Fact: The world without science would be a better place than it is now.


Please feel free to apply your debunking skills.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: debunking of myths and alternative truths [Re: Buster_Brown] * 1
    #26773630 - 06/22/20 06:25 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

in an idiot's reduction of complexity:
let's blame science as a scapegoat for the result of greedy industrialists, abusers of technology, who are ignorant of science, ecology, climatology, etc.

technology uses the findings of science, and investors support tech growth to increase their wealth even if it harms life.

is science the scapegoat you want to choose?


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: debunking of myths and alternative truths [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26773672 - 06/22/20 07:09 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
This might be a good read for those who can wrap their heads around it.
https://www.skepticalscience.com/docs/Debunking_Handbook.pdf

The sorry truth is that once people have understood a falsehood, or myth, it becomes part of their memory system, and the debunking (of that myth) by virtue of repeating the myth in its description actually reinforces the memory of the myth and even if the person follows the logic, they leave with the memory of the myth reinforced.

You almost have to discuss it without mentioning the myth itself, just to enable the new idea to stick, and hope that somehow it worms around and unseats the belief of the myth over time.

It reminds me of how when you have a scary experience, trying to run away or resist the scary thing makes it loom larger in the mind.




.    I don't buy the idea. Just because I know about the flat earth myth, does not mean I am in any danger of believing it. Seems to me the idea that remembering a myth is somehow dangerous is just another belief. In fact many enjoy learning about the myths of ancient cultures, like the Greek myths, and why the planets and days of the week have the names they do. We are not in any danger of believing in the Greek or Roman Gods.

.  In any case thanks for the link.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: debunking of myths and alternative truths [Re: laughingdog]
    #26773682 - 06/22/20 07:18 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

however, if you did believe the myth, then debunking of the myth would have to not include the words "flat earth", because if it did include those words, those words would bind into existing memory while the rest of the non-rewarding conversation would evaporate from your mind.

debunking has to ambush the afflicted person, and establish a new, enjoyable view, that links in and extends other existing memory leading to a more rounded understanding of the planet and its universe.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: debunking of myths and alternative truths [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26773720 - 06/22/20 07:57 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

.    Sounds (to me) like you have a belief. :smile:
.    Perhaps someone who deprograms, folks who leave, or have been rescued from cults, would be able, to provide some real world evidence, as to how deprograming works, and whether or not it always unfolds in the same way.
.    I think Patty Hearst, was another such case, and the followers of Manson. Its actually not that rare, especially if one includes people who switch religions. But I decline to present my self as an expert. I just have enjoyed Joseph Campbell on PBS years ago when there was a TV in the house; where I live now there is no electric programing box, although the grandkids seem addicted to rather dumb cartoons on the i-pads they have access to, which is also beyond any control I might be foolish enough to think I have, in the matter.


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: debunking of myths and alternative truths [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26773721 - 06/22/20 07:59 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

guilty is right wing and things ike that

ignorance

not paying attention

desire

you have to make yourself an angel

and be honest with yourself and more honest with yourself

you have to understand that others are as important as yourself

love is pouring towards you and you should recognize that the self automatically becomes more wholesome

so just don't take steps that are bad

things should take the entity in the right direction and be good for it

when you become better that is good

good for others

so it's like pay attention remind yourself to be kind


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: debunking of myths and alternative truths [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26773805 - 06/22/20 08:46 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:


is science the scapegoat you want to choose?




The weight of evidence behind my hypothesis is irrefutable. Man is a rational animal and the evidence overwhelmingly supports the hypothesis that the world without Man will be a better place.


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Offlinepolaritymind
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Re: debunking of myths and alternative truths [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26773943 - 06/22/20 10:17 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Buster_Brown said:
The Fact: The world without science would be a better place than it is now.




I think this is a little much. I like how Einstein and I think many others said this, maybe even Jung: We are technologically advanced, yet emotionally children. As long as thats the case, technology is just going to amplify our childish destructive tendencies"
That's how I see it, just like any tool, psychedelics also for that matter, science isnt inertly good or bad, what people do with it is. And the increased power also brings increased responsibility. And many things like social change, social security, taxation, capitalism vs socialism, ecological awareness cannot be answered by science and its these things that create a lot of problems atm.
But surely you agree that having toilets, running hot water, and electricity and whatever device you are typing this on for that matter, is a nice thing and preferable over living in a wood hut, farming all year, fighting war with your neighbour or being exploited by some King or Pope, and having to chuck wood and draw water daily and having 80% of your children die in their first years and generally having a whole lot more death around you (inkluding friends and family dying). Not to speak of travel.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: debunking of myths and alternative truths [Re: polaritymind]
    #26774017 - 06/22/20 10:57 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

.    Seems you describe the life of a european peasant 500 years ago, not that of a hunter gatherer. One of the main problem of humans, that science has not helped with, is the inability of humans, to control their birthrate, as evidenced by the growth in population during my lifetime.
.  Many problems stem from this fact, plus the immaturities you mention.
.  When we were connected to nature (hunter gatherer days) 'she' 'naturally' controlled the birthrate for us. Divorced from nature, it seems, we are actually helpless in many ways.


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Offlinepolaritymind
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Re: debunking of myths and alternative truths [Re: laughingdog]
    #26774074 - 06/22/20 11:25 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

But actually you do know that in western countries the birth rate is naturally sinking to a point where many countries, including japan even have less births than deaths (birth ratio less than 2 per "pair of parents") so the population will at the current rate stabilize at 11 billion, because at that time even india and asia and afica (3rd world countries in general), which currently contrribute 80% of population growth will have reached that stage.
Just think of how many people wanna have a career instead of children nowadays. A lot hsa changed, since you dont have to have children as a pension insurance now, also another reason why people do what the want insted of what they feel like they have to. Really the reason for the popultion explosion is this intermediate stage where people havent realized yet that they dont need to still have 13 children so 2 of them survive, but they can just have 2 and they will live. The number of children, or desired children, is really the same back then and now for the families that do want to have kids, except in very poor countries where its about the pension point from above.
And also science gave us copper spirals and condoms (and hormones but those suck I hear the women in my life say) and wouldnt you prefer that over calling disease and murder for food "nature taking care of the population numbers".


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: debunking of myths and alternative truths [Re: Buster_Brown] * 1
    #26774140 - 06/22/20 11:56 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Buster_Brown said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:


is science the scapegoat you want to choose?




The weight of evidence behind my hypothesis is irrefutable. Man is a rational animal and the evidence overwhelmingly supports the hypothesis that the world without Man will be a better place.



the reply to the question does not parse out making science a scapegoat, but refers to an unstated hypothesis and a terribly false claim.

Man is not a rational animal.
Like all other animals, man's mind works associatively.
This statement means that links formed (in the past) emerge as references when facing new contexts that have similarity. Rational implies some innate logic beyond mere association of like to like.

In science, reasoning is introduced that combining mathematics, and historical experimental evidence with insights into a sharable record, which can be referred to and used associatively and reliably by other men.

before science men were not rational,
after science, most men are still in the stone age, so I would say mostly not rational. Science, unfortunately is hard to pick up unless you start early.

I would blame social structures and activities that inhibit scientific understanding such as cults, politics, underfunded schools, and fundamentalism for suppressing rational thinking.


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: debunking of myths and alternative truths [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26774730 - 06/22/20 04:46 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Okay I can agree that modern philosophy has a different view than classical position that Man is a rational being, but that doesn't debunk the proposition that a leopard cannot change it's spots and that science will continue to degrade the environment while making statements to the contrary.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: debunking of myths and alternative truths [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26774785 - 06/22/20 05:00 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

how is science degrading the environment?
do you mean industries are, because as far as I can see science is working to inform us about the environment and show us how we need to change our ways, and industry has to change its ways.

I could see Trump trying to blame scientists for things like that, but not you, please not you, you can do critical thinking.

you know it's not the fault of science, right?


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: debunking of myths and alternative truths [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26774969 - 06/22/20 05:55 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

The evidence presented here gives support to the effective use of ridicule in countering arguments:

Quote:

redgreenvines said:


I could see Trump trying to blame scientists for things like that, but not you, please not you, you can do critical thinking.

you know it's not the fault of science, right?




Quote:

redgreenvines said:
in an idiot's reduction of complexity:






Perhaps I'm mistaken in suspecting this tactic to be beneath the standards of serious debate.


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: debunking of myths and alternative truths [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26775020 - 06/22/20 06:19 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Having repeatedly presented fallacious counter-arguments couched in appeals to ridicule we might conclude that your position was untenable from the start.


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InvisibleR.I.P.Zappa
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Re: debunking of myths and alternative truths [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26775036 - 06/22/20 06:22 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

I think what red is getting at is simply: It is not the hammer that smashes that one guys head, it was the other guy using that tool carelessly or as a weapon.

It's not the tools fault or the science behind the tools construction.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: debunking of myths and alternative truths [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26775057 - 06/22/20 06:30 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Often it is the case where the argument is over whether a belief is true or not true. The third possibility is to be undecided, skeptical, suspicious. These are valid positions when there is not enough evidence to justify knowing a truth via belief. Instead of explaining to someone how they're wrong, it can sometimes be better to explore why they think they're right and allow them to find bits of rationality to uncover their own bias and incorrect thinking.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: debunking of myths and alternative truths [Re: Buster_Brown] * 1
    #26775135 - 06/22/20 06:51 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

maybe the word science needs definition.
obviously people think it is something else.
i just lost an argument with you, ok, thanks.
you make the rules, you win


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: debunking of myths and alternative truths [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #26775197 - 06/22/20 07:13 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Science is just observing phenomena and testing predictions. Whatever bad comes out of that is not the fault of science.

Maybe humans would be happier if we were all squirrels. But we're not squirrels, were humans.


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rahz

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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: debunking of myths and alternative truths [Re: R.I.P.Zappa]
    #26775253 - 06/22/20 07:40 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

R.I.P.Zappa said:
I think what red is getting at is simply: It is not the hammer that smashes that one guys head, it was the other guy using that tool carelessly or as a weapon.

It's not the tools fault or the science behind the tools construction.




The 'track record' or leopard spots if you will, might be better associated with the collateral damage resulting from scientific pursuits. Therefor we could subtract the use of a weapon from your example because the science in warfare contributes to considerable collateral damage on the environment . "Careless" might be appended to the Chernobyl disaster or in retrospect to any use of science that at a later date proves to have been unwise, so in this respect it is indeed the hammer that smashes.


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Invisiblepineninja
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Re: debunking of myths and alternative truths [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26775296 - 06/22/20 08:00 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

If someone can give me an absolute truth id love to hear it.:lookslucrative:


Only then from such a safe base could I slice out my myth.


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: debunking of myths and alternative truths [Re: pineninja]
    #26775304 - 06/22/20 08:01 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

It's not about absolutes, it's about power.


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Invisiblepineninja
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Re: debunking of myths and alternative truths [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26775313 - 06/22/20 08:07 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

We all run around draped in absolutes.

This is dangerous because non of em are true.

Those who know become unencumbered by the illusion can easily manipulate the narrative and produce an endless power from it.

"Keep going the carrot will feed you donkey."


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Edited by pineninja (06/22/20 08:29 PM)


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: debunking of myths and alternative truths [Re: pineninja]
    #26775334 - 06/22/20 08:17 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

I'm pretty sure you just negated your own existence with those words, which is such a shame because I do enjoy your poems, but then again perhaps you personally need not exist for the poems to materialize.


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Invisiblepineninja
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Re: debunking of myths and alternative truths [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26775364 - 06/22/20 08:29 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

If I were sure about myself or you about you.

I wouldnt have written the poems.

Nor would you have read them.

*donkey carrot should've been in qoutes...not directed at you.


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: debunking of myths and alternative truths [Re: pineninja]
    #26775422 - 06/22/20 08:55 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

pineninja said:


*donkey carrot .




Power for it's own sake does fit. A power to mouth intricate poems is an admirable talent. As is the power to win arguments.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: debunking of myths and alternative truths [Re: Buster_Brown] * 1
    #26775863 - 06/23/20 04:27 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

you may think you are drumming up power here, but you are just drumming a keyboard, and what you are typing makes as much sense as if it were typed by a scurry of squirrels.

this is the problem with alternate truths, let's just talk squirrels since there we might find truth in trees.

to hell with science, focus just on the nuts.


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Re: debunking of myths and alternative truths [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26775865 - 06/23/20 04:35 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
you may think you are drumming up power here, but you are just drumming a keyboard, and what you are typing makes as much sense as if it were typed by a scurry of squirrels.






The Planet of the Apes will reflect my power (to the discerning observer)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: debunking of myths and alternative truths [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26775991 - 06/23/20 06:45 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

not the chipmunks?


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: debunking of myths and alternative truths [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26776038 - 06/23/20 07:23 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Them too.


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