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InvisibleShroomismM
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Debunkism as a Lifestyle
    #4695358 - 09/22/05 03:33 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Do people get some kind of satisfaction out of shooting down other people beliefs, experiences, and opinions?
What do you hope to gain from this practice, if you practice it?

Does it get you off?
Does it make you feel powerful?
Are you hoping to change minds?

Are you so sure that your subjective perception is so assuredly correct and perfect as to be infallible and universally applied to all beliefs and experiences that fall under any related categories?

Isn't that called self-righteousness?

That all religion, spirituality, and philosophy can be explained utterly and completely, by primitive.. empirical science? And if it cannot.. then it must be a fallacy?

I think that's a lot of nonsense.

Discuss.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Debunkism as a Lifestyle [Re: Shroomism]
    #4695370 - 09/22/05 03:35 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

"Do people get some kind of satisfaction out of shooting down other people beliefs, experiences, and opinions? "

absolutely.

Its like verbal/mental fencing or martial arts. People get satisfaction out of appearing to be the "victor" in a contest, which is to be expected. The problem is that sometimes we arent trying to start a contest but rather bounce ideas around or work together collaboratively on something... which is when put down addicts can be a real strain on the process.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Debunkism as a Lifestyle [Re: Shroomism]
    #4695382 - 09/22/05 03:38 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

I think it's absolutely ridiculous that any logical human could believe something without evidence. Therefore, whenever anyone spouts some insane pseudoscientific ideas without evidence, my instinctive reaction is to point out their lunacy, at which point they usually make some more crazy arguments and say, "Science doesn't know everything!" Evidently, they seem to think that because we don't currently know everything, it's best to abandon evidence and logic and just go with the first thoughts that pop into their little brains.


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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: Debunkism as a Lifestyle [Re: Shroomism]
    #4695383 - 09/22/05 03:38 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

I think it is just as valid as forming your own online cult that worships aliens. The only big problem is this could lead to mass-suicide if the leader decides it...which if my memory serves me correctly, our previous grey-ambassader actually contemplated! VERY SCARY!

But then again, many skeptics think their raw, scientific outlook on life affords them some kind of insight into the world beyond proving homeopathy, dosing, and faith healers wrong. But realistically it doesn't at all. Skepticism at best, can prove quacks...does it give deeper insight to the workings of the world when combined with the human element? Not at all. Which is why when posts are made by famous skeptics in the PA&L, their logic sinks extremely fast. Reductionist reason isn't so reliable in the real world.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Debunkism as a Lifestyle [Re: Shroomism]
    #4695392 - 09/22/05 03:42 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

When the cat's away...

:discodance:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Debunkism as a Lifestyle [Re: looner2]
    #4695394 - 09/22/05 03:43 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Wow!  :thumbup: I agree with looner 2. Where's my fuckin camera? I want to look back on this when I'm old and say well if I didn't have this picture I surely wouldn't remember that. :grin:

Seriously though. Right on!


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (09/22/05 03:46 PM)


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Debunkism as a Lifestyle [Re: Moonshoe]
    #4695395 - 09/22/05 03:43 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Ok.
What about when you pick a paticular stance on a topic, and don't change your mind for anything, no matter how much evidence or facts you are presented with. And you will argue and debate about it just for the sake of arguing and debating, and I assume.. causing entropy. What is to gain? For anyone..

What about when you butt into a flowing conversation to inject your pre-established opinion that you present as fact, when it wasn't asked for.. which completely ruins the flow of the thread. Instead of constructive criticism or offering a different viewpoint that leads to growth.. in this case we have an intrusive negativity. Instead of learning from each other, we are now deconstructing each others ideas, dissecting them, and just basically tearing them apart. This is counter-productive.

I believe in proactivism.


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Debunkism as a Lifestyle [Re: looner2]
    #4695399 - 09/22/05 03:44 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

when posts are made by famous skeptics in the PA&L, their logic sinks extremely fast.

Skeptics as in Noam Chomsky/Michael Moore advocating-skeptics, or as in Bill Whittle-sque/Phred sort of Skeptics?



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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Debunkism as a Lifestyle [Re: Shroomism]
    #4695404 - 09/22/05 03:46 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Counter-productive is usually a word used by those who have weak arguments. In my opinion, any argument that makes you think and question is productive, and dissecting an argument would most definitely make the person defend it and therefore think more logically about it. If an idea is too weak to expose to the world, then perhaps it should continue to hibernate in that little crevice of an illogical person's brain.


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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: Debunkism as a Lifestyle [Re: Shroomism]
    #4695410 - 09/22/05 03:47 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Do people get some kind of satisfaction out of shooting down other people beliefs, experiences, and opinions?




There we go again :rolleyes:
What makes you think these people actually exist?
That's your interpretation of reality.
Have you got facts to back that up?
Links please!













j/k :evil:


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Debunkism as a Lifestyle [Re: Ravus]
    #4695417 - 09/22/05 03:49 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

That sounds like a cop out to me.
Anyone should be free to express their ideas and experiences freely. Without fear of it turning into an argument. These are discussion boards, not argument boards.
This is NOT the "Debate, Argument, Skeptic, Cynicism and Imperial Science Forum".. last I checked.

Now that being said, there is a HUGE difference in providing an argument to perhaps help shed some light on that person's theory.. point them in the right direction.. give a little healthy constructive dose of reality and logic.... or just providing an argument to be an antagonist.. ala ye olde "Holier-Than-Thou-Smarter-Than-Thou" mentality. Arguing with someone just to try and prove them wrong because you *think* you are right. And because you don't agree with their viewpoint you need to try and make them look like uneducated idiots through a variety of sneaky tactics. There's no productivity or honor in that.

It's "counter-productive" when the only function it serves is to cause petty bickering and bruised egos. Instead of illuminating discussion.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Debunkism as a Lifestyle [Re: Shroomism]
    #4695435 - 09/22/05 03:55 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Shroomism said:
Do people get some kind of satisfaction out of shooting down other people beliefs, experiences, and opinions?
What do you hope to gain from this practice, if you practice it?

Does it get you off?
Does it make you feel powerful?


Are you hoping to change minds?

Are you so sure that your subjective perception is so assuredly correct and perfect as to be infallible and universally applied to all beliefs and experiences that fall under any related categories?

Isn't that called self-righteousness?

That all religion, spirituality, and philosophy can be explained utterly and completely, by primitive.. empirical science? And if it cannot.. then it must be a fallacy?

I think that's a lot of nonsense.

Discuss.




Debunking wouldn't be healthy for me as a lifestyle. It's too limited.

If your goal is to shoot down others beliefs then IMO you have an agenda and a self esteem issue. But we all seem to have some of these issues. :wink:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Debunkism as a Lifestyle [Re: Shroomism]
    #4695437 - 09/22/05 03:56 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Please don't criticize my thoughts. :frown:


Just kidding.

Quote:

Anyone should be free to express their ideas and experiences freely. Without fear of it turning into an argument. These are discussion boards, not argument board. This isn't the "Debate, Arguments, Skeptics, and Imperial Science Forum".. last I checked.




I'm a unifier, not a divider! But how can thoughts exist without "arguments"? To make a philosophy or thought in a public place, and then expect people not to ask pointed questions or point out obvious flaws is rather insane, and detrimental to the philosophy in my opinion. What does not kill a philosophy will usually make it stronger; to keep a thought in a bubble and try to protect it from any argument or skepticism only harms the thought itself.

Quote:

Now that being said, there is a HUGE difference in providing an argument to perhaps help shed some light on that person's theory.. point them in the right direction.. give a little healthy constructive dose of reality and logic.... or just providing an argument to be an antagonist.. ala ye olde "Holier-Than-Thou-Smarter-Than-Thou" mentality.




They often lead to the same ends, and much of the time, only the poster knows which he is doing. Providing an argument against a weak philosophy often will lead to immediate attacks against the poster, as shown many times by reactions to Swami's logical and valid arguments.


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Debunkism as a Lifestyle [Re: Shroomism]
    #4695443 - 09/22/05 03:57 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Is Ravus fitting the description of the type of person outlined in your original post?


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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: Debunkism as a Lifestyle [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #4695455 - 09/22/05 03:58 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Is Ravus fitting the description of the type of person outlined in your original post?




*Jumps in*

Don't make this personal. The resulting stuff will derail this rather interesting thread.


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Debunkism as a Lifestyle [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #4695465 - 09/22/05 04:02 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

No. He's asking serious questions for good reason.


Quote:

I'm a unifier, not a divider! But how can thoughts exist without "arguments"? To make a philosophy or thought in a public place, and then expect people not to ask pointed questions or point out obvious flaws is rather insane, and detrimental to the philosophy in my opinion. What does not kill a philosophy will usually make it stronger; to keep a thought in a bubble and try to protect it from any argument or skepticism only harms the thought itself.





While I generally agree with this... there are some things which don't need to be/can't be argued. To do so is a practice in futility. You'd have better luck and results with smashing your head against a brick wall for days. I'm trying to point out that in some cases.. yes arguments can be very helpful, and very beneficial in helping to point out the flaws in logic and whatnot.. but they are not ALWAYS needed. You cannot generalize and apply the same argument to ten thousand scenarios either.

Sometimes, arguing is just pointless.
The "divider" is what I am concerned with. I hate factions.


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Debunkism as a Lifestyle [Re: Asante]
    #4695470 - 09/22/05 04:03 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Not trying to make this personal. I want to know if Shroomism thinks this thread, and any goal he had in mind, is being derailed, ruined, disrupted of the 'flow', or providing intrusive negativity by Ravus' actions.

My question to you, Shroomism, are the actions of Ravus [nevermind him as a person] being destructive, or counter-productive?

:yinyang:



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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Debunkism as a Lifestyle [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #4695472 - 09/22/05 04:04 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

No.


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Debunkism as a Lifestyle [Re: Shroomism]
    #4695504 - 09/22/05 04:14 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

I'm trying to point out that in some cases.. yes arguments can be very helpful, and very beneficial in helping to point out the flaws in logic and whatnot.. but they are not ALWAYS needed.

Okay, so how should one determine when debate, as in formal arguments, are not 'needed'?
Perhaps by the request of the thread-starter that no one argue with him or her?



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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Debunkism as a Lifestyle [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #4695513 - 09/22/05 04:16 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

LOL

DISCLAIMER: I am highly sensitive to having my expressed beliefs questioned or examined by others. Please post only support and encouragement on this thread.


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