Shroomism said:
No.. I'm just saying.. if your beliefs are destroying beliefs.. what is sacred?
The truth. And only by asking questions we are uncomfortable with can we be woken from our complacency and be driven to find what that truth is.
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My problems with modern science lie not in it's application of logic to physical reality.. but in it's absence of spiritual thinking, which is the other half of the equation.
Science and spiritual thought are not mutually exclusive, as I explained. However, it is not the role of science to concern itself with such thinking, for the simple reason that it is not scientific. That is not to say scientists cannot also engage in spiritual thinking. They just can't taint their work with such biases.
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We are not simply physical beings. We produce things like guns and nuclear weapons and chemical waste and internal combustion engines running on fossil fuels which we mass produce and dump into our environment with no regard whatsoever to life, or the reaction to our action. We pollute and mine deep as we want, wipe out entire plant and animal species by tearing down rainforests.. all with no knowledge or ever taking into account the cosmic balance necessary for such a thing, never concerning ourselves with the consequences of our actions. These issues effect us all, down to every last person and animal. We wont destroy the Earth... but we could destroy most of the life on it, for a while, if we don't change our way of thinking. If not I suspect mother nature will seek her own type of revenge in an effort to cleanse herself. This seems to be a universal theme.
And there are many scientists working hard on exactly those problems. I'd say the real culprits in those situations are business and politics, both of which tend to see it in their best interests to ignore the warnings of concerned scientists until it is too late.
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Calling bullshit is one thing.. but you can't call bullshit on what you don't know, or haven't experienced. Just because you have experienced things a certain way does not mean that every reality will be the same.
I have refrained from challenging the experiences of others if they do not directly contradict the body of scientific evidence or fail to be logically consistent. Sometimes I ask for evidence if the person can provide it(such as danoEoboy's nightly UFO encounters), but if they are unable to, I remain in suspended judgement, neither accepting nor ruling out the validity of their experience. Sometimes, I will make suggestions as to what I think might be causing the phenomena they've experienced, but it just that -- suggestions, nothing more.
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We are subjective beings, all on our own paths of evolution. The only constant is the universe, which we are a part of.. and that evolution is a perpetual and never ending process. The universe works on balance.. as science has slightly discovered.. but as in physical reality for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.. so there is in the cosmic scale, and micro. You cannot beat and beat and beat on the Earth (or someone's beliefs) and not expect something in return.
I fully expect reactions when I "beat on"(question) someone's beliefs. I expect to shake them out of their comfortable state of complacency and get them thinking seriously about beliefs which they previously believed without question.
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Beliefs are personal things, and they cannot be subjected to science because they are based on subjective life experience.
Subjective experience can only tell us so much. If I were to look out my window right now and only trust my subjective experience while ignoring scientific advancements in our understanding of the world, I would guess that the world was flat, that the sun moves around the earth, cars run on magic, that no place outside of California exists. Subjective experiences usually can be subjected to scientific and rational scrutiny. The only exception are those experiences which cannot be tested, and cannot be more reasonably explained by our academic knowledge of the world.
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However, I believe this is the root cause of the rift in society; that which separates religion from full understanding and likewise science of full understanding. Because we are divided, we cannot progress to higher evolutionary levels as a species. Science without religion is lame and religion without science is blind. - some guy
I certainly believe that faith and spirituality has its role to play, but it's when that faith goes unquestioned that we fall into ignorance and complacency.
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I believe that ignorance is dangerous too. Ignorance of actual reality, where you are a sentient being.. a spiritual being having a human experience.. the physical realm, where you learn from life experience and gain wisdom to further evolution.. where you take 100% responsibility for your actions.. where your thoughts become actions and create your reality. Ignorance of our own selves and our own fears, those which keep us contained in the shell of the ego. There is more to life than equations and subjective measurements.. for there is an infinite reality which we are a part of.. let's study that first, but united.
I do not deny the reality of which you speak, and in fact I'm partial to the idea myself, but such an idea cannot be tested for validity. Thus, it cannot be incorporated into science. But it is possible to hold such beliefs while still questioning and examining those beliefs which can be tested. Most ideas that can be objectively tested fall under the realm of science, mathematics, or logic(as a branch of philosophy). You may also have your ways of subjectively testing beliefs, and I openly encourage that, but of course in such cases you can only prove or disprove it to yourself, not anyone else.
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My utopian ideal is that we will make some amazing discovery of the ancient history of Earth.. and the science people will smack their heads and go "DOH! OH!" and the religion people will smack their heads and go "DOH! OH.. right"
Science has made such a gesture many times throughout history as it has uncovered new truths about our universe. The difference is that science has always adapted to such new knowledge, whereas religions will often hide from it or explicitly deny it.
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Revelations. Life isn't about preaching beliefs, and it isn't about destroying them.. it's about living life and enjoying reality. Everyone is on their own trip.. don't rain on their parade.. if they aren't hurting anyone.. what right do you have to intervene?
I never told anyone they had to post their beliefs on this board. They made the choice themselves to make their thoughts publicly visible message board, and specifically one dedicated to spiritual and philosophical discussion. Unless they explicitly state otherwise, I run on the assumption that any ideas posted here are up for discussion, and since this forum is open to all members, I also assume that those who have different views are allowed to discuss those beliefs just as much as all the dittoheads who nod their heads in agreement. What right do I have to intervene? What right do they have to forcibly remain sheltered from alternative ideas while posting on a forum explicitly dedicated to the exchange of ideas? If they are afraid of hearing other points of view, perhaps they should reserve the expression of their ideas for only those who think exactly like them. As long as this is a forum for public discussion, I will discuss the ideas posted here as I see fit.
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