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OrgoneConclusion
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Criss Angel debunks Tarot & Astrology
#7247129 - 08/01/07 10:50 AM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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On a recent episode, TV magician Cris Angel, recreates a decades old psychological experiment.
He has his team cut out random horoscopes from several newspapers and tapes the blurb to some Tarot cards.
He then sets up a tent (in the Luxor?) in Vegas and does tarot readings for $5 on five random people. He then procedes to do a 'reading' on the five clients that is EXACTLY THE SAME and written by different astrologers for different signs.
EVERYONE of the clients rated Angel as 90-100% accurate. Several of the women were in tears, they were so incredibly touched by the 'personal' reading. "I knew he was seeing deep into my soul, " sighs one woman. Another adds, "He knew things about me that not even my best friend knew."
Cris later gathers the five together and explains all about wishful thinking and confirmation bias much to their shock.
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Bard
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Deep, very deep inside, we are all ONE.
-------------------- So dreaming let's you know reality exists. I don't belive. I fear.
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AlteredAgain
Visual Alchemist
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they're tools for self-awareness, nothing more, nothing less.
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Rhizoid
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Perhaps irrational wishful thinking has some kind of genetic survival value among humans? If one person in a group of stupid people can convince all of the others to behave erratically in a way that increases the survival rate for his genes (for example, they might give him food or money for occult readings), then perhaps the likelihood of the group gene pool's survival is increased?
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backfromthedead
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Re: Criss Angel debunks Tarot & Astrology [Re: Rhizoid]
#7247850 - 08/01/07 02:37 PM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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"Perhaps irrational wishful thinking has some kind of genetic survival value among humans?"
To the rulers of this planet! I wonder who taught humans to think like that anyway.
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Archemetis
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Re: Criss Angel debunks Tarot & Astrology [Re: backfromthedead]
#7248029 - 08/01/07 03:31 PM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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so long as the individuals felt inspired or gained some clearity of mind, i dont think thats de-bunking at all. if it feels good its good.
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Icelander
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It doesn't matter what Tarot cards come up in a reading. It's that the use of them gets folk to focus and think about what is going on in their experience. Often people need these things because they are not ready to trust there own clear perception of what is. So they do have some value at times.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
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so orgone.... would we be able to debunk medical science if we took a person with a set of physical symptoms to 5 different doctors and got 5 different diagnosis?
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Criss Angel debunks Tarot & Astrology [Re: SneezingPenis]
#7248385 - 08/01/07 05:11 PM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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1. Look up 'strawman' argument.
2. Look it up again. You have been here long enough to have mastered this basic. I have full confidence that you can understand the concept.
3. Point out anywhere in this thread where I mentioned doctor, patient, diagnosis or medicine. Oh, I didn't, did I?
Thanks for playing.
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SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
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I was making the point that you are trying to debunk an entire field of interest through one situation and 5 or so people.
I think all too often you make great leaps and use some of your own debating fallacies to support your "witch trials", yet refuse to apply any of those thoughts towards your precious science.
If I were to make a thread that talked about a story involving a woman with some rare disease who was diagnosed differently by every single doctor she went to..... would that debunk all of medical science? no, it debunks all those medical professionals involved.... just like how your story debunks tarot and astrology for all those people involved. It doesn't debunk the entire field.
also, my previous argument wasn't a strawman. 1) I wasnt refuting what you had stated, I was asking you a question. 2) a strawman is like this: You state A. then I state B, and go on to show how B=A, and then refute B and say or infer that A is refuted if B is refuted.
I never refuted B.
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Diploid
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Re: Criss Angel debunks Tarot & Astrology [Re: SneezingPenis]
#7250426 - 08/02/07 06:49 AM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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I was making the point that you are trying to debunk an entire field of interest through one situation and 5 or so people.
This has been tried with more than 5 people over the years:
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Sinbad
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Re: Criss Angel debunks Tarot & Astrology [Re: Icelander]
#7250655 - 08/02/07 08:55 AM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: It doesn't matter what Tarot cards come up in a reading. It's that the use of them gets folk to focus and think about what is going on in their experience. Often people need these things because they are not ready to trust there own clear perception of what is. So they do have some value at times.
This is what I feel also. My sister wont accept much of my father advice for example, but she does believe that he does very good rune readings, and as such he has been able to direct her attention with the use of runes to certain aspects of her life that are in need of attention. Call it trickery, but it works, and my sister is very grateful for the readings.
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FollowTheMusic
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Orgone, I think that you (i.e., Criss) are the ones employing a strawman argument. I agree he's debunked Tarot -- if we define "Tarot" as "a deck of cards predicting the first letter of the first name of the woman I'll marry." We could play this all day. Let's define "prayer" as "10 Hail Mary's gets you a raise." Let's define "karma" as "I punched a guy, and two years later someone punched me!" My point is that these are shallow and trite interpretations of deep spiritual concepts.
I am aware that many people do in fact hold such literal views, I just don't think there's much to be gained by "debunking." I suppose that's another debate though -- the usefulness and goals of debunking.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Criss Angel debunks Tarot & Astrology [Re: Sinbad]
#7250919 - 08/02/07 10:22 AM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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I thought Buddhism sought to look behind delusion.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Criss Angel debunks Tarot & Astrology [Re: FollowTheMusic]
#7250930 - 08/02/07 10:25 AM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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Understanding human psychology and self-deception is unimportant?
Exposing fakes, lies and deceit is unimportant?
Then you talk about truths...
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shakercee
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Gullible people have always existed; their fears and anxieties exploited by con men. We can only hope to reduce the percentage through aggressive exposure of the lies and deceits.
James Randi is the foremost debunker of them all, and his website is an excellent source for skeptics.
-------------------- Pray, v.: To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy - Ambrose Bierce Medical science has confirmed what the male world has known intuitively for millenia: that scratching your ass is a great aid to complex thinking. Its God's responsibility to forgive the terrorist organizations such as Jaish, Lashkar etc. Its our responsibility to arrange the meeting between them and god." - Indian Armed Forces "Hey Monkey!! Get Funky" - Tarzan and Jane
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FollowTheMusic
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I think that's evasion.
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Sinbad
Living TheMoment
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: I thought Buddhism sought to look behind delusion.
More like cut through, but yes it is. But It is your opinion that the rune readings are delusion. My father and my sister think otherwise while I'm more inclined to agree with you to some extent. This does not mean that I negate the benefit of such rituals, in fact there are many rituals that are steeped in myth that I think are most beneficial for some, as they relate specifically to aspects of our psyhe's that are usually more or less unaccessible in a usual setting.
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Edited by Sinbad (08/02/07 11:36 AM)
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Criss Angel debunks Tarot & Astrology [Re: Sinbad]
#7251083 - 08/02/07 11:24 AM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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A con man is performing a 'ritual'?
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Sinbad
Living TheMoment
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: A con man is performing a 'ritual'?
Not in this case, no!
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Criss Angel debunks Tarot & Astrology [Re: Sinbad]
#7251133 - 08/02/07 11:42 AM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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Here is the bottom line, SinCity:
All illusion is to be overcome. There is no good illusion and bad illusion, even if it appears to be helpful in the short term.
If you know the story of Buddha, he was protected from the knowledge of mortality for many years in his childhood by well-meaning parents.
This delightful illusion did not serve him in the least.
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Sinbad
Living TheMoment
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: Here is the bottom line, SinCity:
All illusion is to be overcome. There is no good illusion and bad illusion, even if it appears to be helpful in the short term.
If you know the story of Buddha, he was protected from the knowledge of mortality for many years in his childhood by well-meaning parents.
This delightful illusion did not serve him in the least.
Of course, illusion is illusion. But who are YOU to dictate what is illusory and what is not? We, as human beings mostly have limited perceptions. From a scientific perspective we could say we are limited to three dimensional perceptions.
Most people probably cannot discriminate illusion from reality. But what of those that can? Can they give advices through mediums? Can they use ancient tools to gather knowledge from other dimensions?
Perhaps, but I know I cannot therefore for me it would be an illusion to even try. But for others, I cannot possibly know what there perceptions are. Maybe they can? Maybe even if they cannot, they might be able to help in some small way (through there own capacity for worldly wisdom) someone who believes in them. They may even believe they can themselves, but really they cannot. Then this would be 'there own' illusion and delusion.
Upon the Buddhas birth a Brahmin prophesied that he would either be a great king, or a great spiritual leader. his father wanting him to be a king kept him away from anything spiritual and kept him stepped in pleasure. Little did he know that this would serve as the impetus for his spiritual awakening. Did the Brahmin foresee this situation? Who knows?
All I can say is that judging from my own limited perspective, I cannot say.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Criss Angel debunks Tarot & Astrology [Re: Sinbad]
#7251362 - 08/02/07 12:56 PM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
But who are YOU to dictate what is illusory and what is not?
Are you truly having trouble grokking the opening post? Which part is difficult: that the reading had no bearing on the person or that the person fooled themselves with their imagination?
As you deem it impossible to tell illusion from reality why bother discussing anything? BTW, we do not all have the same trouble discerning fact from fiction.
Do you think the people that designed your computer knew a little bit about reality? At least a little bit more that the DMT tripper who 'almost invented' a space-folding device?
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Sinbad
Living TheMoment
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
But who are YOU to dictate what is illusory and what is not?
Are you truly having trouble grokking the opening post? Which part is difficult: that the reading had no bearing on the person or that the person fooled themselves with their imagination?
As you deem it impossible to tell illusion from reality why bother discussing anything? BTW, we do not all have the same trouble discerning fact from fiction.
Do you think the people that designed your computer knew a little bit about reality? At least a little bit more that the DMT tripper who 'almost invented' a space-folding device?
I did not grok the opening post, just moved into a new area of debate. Perhaps your definition of 'reality' and 'illusion' differ from mine. Where as I'm coming from the domain of subjective experience, you still feel the need to define using objectified standards, which is OK. I think there are readings which can be accurate and still based upon mystical means, and others that merely exploit the market and need to believe so as to lull the susceptible into believing in there false 'readings' and handing over there money. How to detect fact from fiction in this respect using scientific method? I have no idea, sorry. I'm not sure one can. But one can certainly detect the gullibility level of a select group of people, for sure. But that is an entirely different thing.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Criss Angel debunks Tarot & Astrology [Re: Sinbad]
#7251690 - 08/02/07 02:23 PM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
I did not grok the opening post,
Sorry to hear that. I made it as simple as I thought I could.
Quote:
Perhaps your definition of 'reality' and 'illusion' differ from mine.
I use the standard definitions.
Quote:
I think there are readings which can be accurate and still based upon mystical means,
How to detect fact from fiction in this respect using scientific method? I have no idea, sorry. I'm not sure one can.
You cannot detect fact from fiction is this regard.
People are known to delude themselves.
Yet you believe 'real' readings are possible and yet base this upon nothing.
Do you truly not see the problem? This is sad.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Re: Criss Angel debunks Tarot & Astrology [Re: Sinbad]
#7251836 - 08/02/07 03:05 PM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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But who are YOU to dictate what is illusory and what is not?
Taken over ones lifetime it would be safe to guess that most of what we have believed to be true turned out to be illusion or delusional.
What we believe to be true today may turn out to be joke to us in the future.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (08/02/07 03:06 PM)
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Icelander
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Yet you believe 'real' readings are possible
Depends on what you mean by real? If by that you meant the reading "worked" for the person and got the desired results then maybe you could call it real. Other than that, nothing is "real". More like "reel" as in a movie that we play.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Diploid
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Re: Criss Angel debunks Tarot & Astrology [Re: Icelander]
#7251876 - 08/02/07 03:28 PM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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Depends on what you mean by real?
I have a real reel:
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Sinbad
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Re: Criss Angel debunks Tarot & Astrology [Re: Icelander]
#7251911 - 08/02/07 03:46 PM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: Yet you believe 'real' readings are possible
Depends on what you mean by real? If by that you meant the reading "worked" for the person and got the desired results then maybe you could call it real. Other than that, nothing is "real". More like "reel" as in a movie that we play.
Thats exactly what I was trying to get at.
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Archemetis
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OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
Quote:
Perhaps your definition of 'reality' and 'illusion' differ from mine.
I use the standard definitions.
man do i feel like a fool, all this time theres been standard definitions, and here iv been lost and confused trying to figure it out through expirience.
its good to know the collective's got their shit figured out.
Edited by Archemetis (08/02/07 04:20 PM)
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MarkostheGnostic
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Newspaper horoscopes are not what astrology is in the first place, they are bogus, generic creations that are taken personally by bogus generalized humans like the five people who all found meaning from the same generic horoscope.
An astrological profile done by computer from http://alabe.com/ for example, gave no recognizable descriptions of my personality when I accidentally calculated with daylight savings time. But when that error was corrected, it was uncanny both from my perspective as well as from my Lady's (who knows aspects of my personality better than I do) about how accurate the reading was.
I was not very appreciative about Western astrology (I had only read a book or two), and I knew that the Chinese, Tibetans and other peoples had alternate systems which seemed to relativize the importance of the main Western system. Nevertheless, I was surprised.
It is a complete misunderstanding on the part of empirically-minded rationalists who set out to debunk the descriptive capabilities of major systems of 'divination' (like I Ching as well). They cannot understand how the influence of planets can effect the personality of a human being. Their model for attempting to understand is a model which attempts to use a scientific principle, almost exclusively that of gravitation (which is the only distance effect that can be conceived) to account for modifications of molecular, DNA, neural anatomy and (reductionistically to the end) personality. The 'acausal' principle that Jung described the working of the I Ching, as well as that of astrology, necessitates a higher order conceptualization of working principles in the universe than the strictly physical processes that are exclusively acknowledged by materialistic thinkers. The further notion (as Jung and W. Pauli attempted to formulate before Jung's death) was that space-time and psyche were two sides of the same coin. Moreover, our Taoistic and non-dual participation in and as the fabric of space-time from these higher perspectives doesn't isolate 'us' using the boundary of our skin. The 'us' is of a cosmic identity, not merely a physical-biological "bag of mostly water" (as the Star Trekkian Horta perceived in Bill Shatner's favorite episode). 'We' are the fabric of which the planets, and the very stars are includes in what we are from this perspective, and hence they can indeed influence our development.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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RasHelio1
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What Criss Angel did was fell far short from what astrology is.Astrology is the ancient term for Astronomy.Astronomy being a seperation from the "intuitive" aspects the study of the stars.Astro = Astor = Star.From where we get the word Easter and Pastor for example.Easter = the Eastern Star which is usually applied to the Sun rising in the east , Pastor = Father Star ,the Sun or in a microcosmic sense a representative in human form that studies the stars.Studying the stars is where humanity developed geometry,mathematics and written language.The Zodiac is a calendar.From measuring out the stars in the sky (in ancient days the stars in the sky were referred to as the "heavens")humanity arrived at the symbols representing the stars and the symbols representing calculations between those stars and earth.In ancient days "numbers" and their quantitive values were also used to record the language used in describing or defining what they were looking at and how the ideas were communicated between one another.To better remember this calendar(zodiac) great stories of heroic situations were applied to the stars and as language developed the stories were written or recorded with the symbols applied to them.In this way we may have an epic story of a heroic character with anaologies to a seasonal change with the characters surrounding the lead role in the story actually representing the movement of stars in the sky or "heavens".The heroes were also known as what we term today as "gods".Gods = Heroes.Ones who for one "reason" or another attained and achieved more than the "average" person can does or has.Like the NFL record holder for most receptions in a super bowl.
As for the interpretive aspects of the influence of planets and stars (suns) on individuals,this for of astronomy (astrology) is much older than a centuries.Most people in the western world are familair with the "BIBLE" and in it are good examples.One instance is in the book of Job.Old testament Job or the trials of Job in Judaen lore and other ancient Judaen Sumerian Egyptian text contains these passages : Job 38:31 - Gideon Bible King James Version - Canst thou bind the sweet "INFLUENCES" (<---important word to take note of) of Pleiades,or loose the bands of Orion?( Pleiades and Orion - Star Groups = constellations etc.)Job 38:32 - Canst thou bring forth "MAZZAROTH" in due season? ( Mazzaroth = Zodiac)or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons? (Arcturus = constellation).Job 38:33 Knowest thou the oridinance of heaven? Canst thou "set" the "dominion thereof" "ON EARTH"?Clearly what's being spoke of is the physical AND intuitive qualities of the study of the stars.
What is meant by the intutitive or "spiritual" aspects of suns and planets on the living things on earth?It's a scientific as well as spiritual understanding and use.when Criss Angel conducted his performance he was using astrology in the sense that you read an daily or weekly forecast in a magazine or newspaper.Those forecasts are for entertainment purposes and though dervived and concentrated down come from a wider view of Astrology.The forecasts are based on where in the calendar or Zodiac the Sun is in the month you were born.The idea is that the energy emitted from the Sun arrives to earth in different magnitudes at different times of the year.The light and radiation at those different times of the year have different affects on all aspects of life at those various times.Simple example is that some plant life grows better in the Summer than the Winter.So we see indeed that the where the Sun is in the sky has an influence on life at different times.When one decides to sow seed is important to the development of some plants more than others.When one harvests ,and how much light or darkness a living organism receives during a 24 hour period etc etc.
More than just where the Sun was at in relation to ones birth is where it was during the 9 months one was carried in his/her mothers womb.How the climate change affected the mother during this period physically and leading to the mothers mental and emotional state during those seasons.How the mothers "mood" during pregnancy affected the developing life form in utero.How hot was it outside the womb during the childs first months of development etc etc. Astrology goes farther in it's intuitive aspect than just where the Sun was.The study goes into where all of the planets were when one was born, the physcial relationship between the planets, and where you were on the planet at birth in relationship to where the planets and stars were positioned at that moment.Why would it matter scientifically?Stars and planets have gravity,magnetic polarities,radiation etc.Where they are positioned, how close to earth, how close to each other may affect aspects of living on our planet.In a simple sense a person born in august during a 110 degree plus heatwave to a poor family whose parents are angry and fighting probably just because it's so damned hot will "probably" develop differently than one born to a wealthy family during a blizzard who keep the thermostat set at 74 degrees.
Understanding these things and interpreting them was important in ancient days.Kings were chosen monuments temples cities were built according to the position of stars in the heavens.They still are to this day.Just as persons are born at precise point on the globe with the planets and suns in the universe in an particular arrangement, so were and are nations born. The interpretaion is an application(applying) seasons (moods) "the spice of life" to the "tiny universe" or man. I'm not saying here that I believe in or follow the astrological "readings".I do though find it an interesting subject to wonder about both scientifcally and spiritually.In conclusion, it's a shame that people wouldtake any sort of knowledge or understanding to use to take advantage of otherswho do not have an equal share of that understanding or knowledge.
Edited by RasHelio1 (08/02/07 05:46 PM)
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Diploid
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I accidentally calculated with daylight savings time
Ah, so when you're off by one hour, your horoscope is all wrong, but when you're off by 30 degrees of right ascention it's spot on.
Makes perfect sense.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Rhizoid
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said: An astrological profile done by computer from http://alabe.com/ for example,
I entered my correct birth date and location, and got a profile that is about 70% wrong. Then I entered today's date and a city on the opposite side of the planet and got a profile that is only 40% wrong. My conclusion: astrology is 100% bullshit.
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Criss Angel debunks Tarot & Astrology [Re: Rhizoid]
#7254839 - 08/03/07 10:04 AM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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Maybe your parents lied to you.
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Criss Angel debunks Tarot & Astrology [Re: Diploid]
#7254856 - 08/03/07 10:10 AM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: I accidentally calculated with daylight savings time
Ah, so when you're off by one hour, your horoscope is all wrong, but when you're off by 30 degrees of right ascention it's spot on.
Makes perfect sense.
I did not extend my own experience to all experiences. I spoke only for my experience, which was fairly accurate. Jumped the gun again Diploid.
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Taharka
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Re: Criss Angel debunks Tarot & Astrology [Re: backfromthedead]
#7254867 - 08/03/07 10:13 AM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
backfromthedead said: "Perhaps irrational wishful thinking has some kind of genetic survival value among humans?"
Seems like it does.
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Rhizoid
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Registered: 01/22/00
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Re: Criss Angel debunks Tarot & Astrology [Re: Taharka]
#7258515 - 08/04/07 08:59 AM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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Very interesting article! However it doesn't address the genetic issue. The survival mechanisms of a species usually depends on the fact that a lot of individual lives can be wasted. But after reading the article it's easy to see how wishful thinking fits in: it made our ancestors try various stupid things, and then some of them stumbled upon useful technologies that helped them exterminate their competitors in the ecology.
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