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Anonymous

The Limitations of Science
    #2249295 - 01/17/04 09:32 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

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OfflineSole_Worthy
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Re: The Limitations of Science [Re: ]
    #2249322 - 01/17/04 09:38 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Science can not expierience. Science maybe be able to tell us what love is, but love needs to be expiercned.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: The Limitations of Science [Re: ]
    #2249337 - 01/17/04 11:05 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

I don't know. this seems kinda silly.
saying that science is "limited" because it can't tell us what's good or evil is like saying biology is "limited" because it doesn't deal with the properties of metals.

I don't see those as "limitations"


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OfflineFrog
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Re: The Limitations of Science [Re: ]
    #2249343 - 01/17/04 11:08 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Science cannot tell us who God is and whether He exists.

Science cannot explain karma.


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


Edited by Frog (01/17/04 11:08 PM)


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OfflineSpecialEd
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Re: The Limitations of Science [Re: ]
    #2249405 - 01/17/04 11:36 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

1.  Science cannot illuminate that which cannot be tested.

Funny story:

From my experience, the gen pop knows very little about the scientific method and is somewhat intimidated by the notion...'


Earlier this fall, we were building simple circuits in my electromechanical systems class.  An older student, to whom I will refer to as Frank, had a question about an edison base fuse.

"Instructor, I'm not sure if this fuse is in working order, how can I find out?" asked Frank.

"Screw it in and grab the hot wire, you will find out."  offered the teacher.

"That's not very scientific!" Frank protested.

"Of course it is, the instructor offered a sure fire way of testing your hypothesis.  What do you think science is?"  I asked.

It strikes my funny bone because some people demonize science by conjuring up images of Einstein looking mofo's scampering about labs furnished with impressive looking equipment.  If such is not involved, it cannot be science. :lol:


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OfflinePHARMAKOS
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Re: The Limitations of Science [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2249440 - 01/18/04 12:49 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

science is power, it is a tangible area which grants us mastery over our physical surroundings. Science is incredible power. But science in itself cannot control its own power. For example, science can give us the power of the atom, but not give us the wisdom not to make an A bomb


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OfflineSpecialEd
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Re: The Limitations of Science [Re: PHARMAKOS]
    #2249459 - 01/18/04 01:00 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

For example, science can give us the power of the atom, but not give us the wisdom not to make an A bomb 




True, science only allows us to test our hypothesis and interpret the resuslts.  The question, however, is as Robert Pirsig so aptly put it, "Where does the hypothesis come from?"

Thinking about that makes me wanna drop the F bomb. :lol:


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Invisiblepanamared
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Re: The Limitations of Science [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2249501 - 01/18/04 01:28 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

science cannot explain what life is or its meaning for that matter.


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Anonymous

Re: The Limitations of Science [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2249514 - 01/18/04 01:34 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

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OfflinePsilocybeingzz
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Re: The Limitations of Science [Re: ]
    #2249517 - 01/18/04 01:37 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Philosophy becomes Science if and WHEN  we can solve it. :smile:


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Anonymous

Re: The Limitations of Science [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #2249527 - 01/18/04 01:41 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

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OfflineSpecialEd
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Re: The Limitations of Science [Re: ]
    #2249539 - 01/18/04 02:42 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

From Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance...

"The formation of hypotheses is the most mysterious of all the categories of scientific method. Where they come from, no one knows. A person is sitting somewhere, minding his own business, and suddenly...flash!...he understands something he didn't understand before. Until it's tested the hypothesis isn't truth. For the tests aren't its source. Its source is somewhere else.

Einstein had said:


Man tries to make for himself in the fashion that suits him best a simplified and intelligible picture of the world. He then tries to some extent to substitute this cosmos of his for the world of experience, and thus to overcome it -- .He makes this cosmos and its construction the pivot of his emotional life in order to find in this way the peace and serenity which he cannot find in the narrow whirlpool of personal experience -- .The supreme task -- is to arrive at those universal elementary laws from which the cosmos can be built up by pure deduction. There is no logical path to these laws; only intuition, resting on sympathetic understanding of experience, can reach them -- .


Intuition? Sympathy? Strange words for the origin of scientific knowledge.

A lesser scientist than Einstein might have said, "But scientific knowledge comes from nature. Nature provides the hypotheses." But Einstein understood that nature does not. Nature provides only experimental data.

A lesser mind might then have said, "Well then, man provides the hypotheses." But Einstein denied this too. "Nobody," he said, "who has really gone into the matter will deny that in practice the world of phenomena uniquely determines the theoretical system, in spite of the fact that there is no theoretical bridge between phenomena and their theoretical principles."

Ph?drus' break occurred when, as a result of laboratory experience, he became interested in hypotheses as entities in themselves. He had noticed again and again in his lab work that what might seem

to be the hardest part of scientific work, thinking up the hypotheses, was invariably the easiest. The act of formally writing everything down precisely and clearly seemed to suggest them. As he was testing hypothesis number one by experimental method a flood of other hypotheses would come to mind, and as he was testing these, some more came to mind, and as he was testing these, still more came to mind until it became painfully evident that as he continued testing hypotheses and eliminating them or confirming them their number did not decrease. It actually increased as he went along.

At first he found it amusing. He coined a law intended to have the humor of a Parkinson's law that "The number of rational hypotheses that can explain any given phenomenon is infinite." It pleased him never to run out of hypotheses. Even when his experimental work seemed dead-end in every conceivable way, he knew that if he just sat down and muddled about it long enough, sure enough, another hypothesis would come along. And it always did. It was only months after he had coined the law that he began to have some doubts about the humor or benefits of it.

If true, that law is not a minor flaw in scientific reasoning. The law is completely nihilistic. It is a catastrophic logical disproof of the general validity of all scientific method!

If the purpose of scientific method is to select from among a multitude of hypotheses, and if the number of hypotheses grows faster than experimental method can handle, then it is clear that all hypotheses can never be tested. If all hypotheses cannot be tested, then the results of any experiment are inconclusive and the entire scientific method falls short of its goal of establishing proven knowledge.

About this Einstein had said, "Evolution has shown that at any given moment out of all conceivable constructions a single one has always proved itself absolutely superior to the rest," and let it go at that. But to Ph?drus that was an incredibly weak answer. The phrase "at any given moment" really shook him. Did Einstein really mean to state that truth was a function of time? To state that would annihilate the most basic presumption of all science!

But there it was, the whole history of science, a clear story of continuously new and changing explanations of old facts. The time spans of permanence seemed completely random he could see no order in them. Some scientific truths seemed to last for centuries, others for less than a year. Scientific truth was not dogma, good for eternity, but a temporal quantitative entity that could be studied like anything else.

He studied scientific truths, then became upset even more by the apparent cause of their temporal condition. It looked as though the time spans of scientific truths are an inverse function of the intensity of scientific effort. Thus the scientific truths of the twentieth century seem to have a much shorter life-span than those of the last century because scientific activity is now much greater. If, in the next century, scientific activity increases tenfold, then the life expectancy of any scientific truth can be expected to drop to perhaps one-tenth as long as now. What shortens the life-span of the existing truth is the volume of hypotheses offered to replace it; the more the hypotheses, the shorter the time span of the truth. And what seems to be causing the number of hypotheses to grow in recent decades seems to be nothing other than scientific method itself. The more you look, the more you see. Instead of selecting one truth from a multitude you are increasing the multitude. What this means logically is that as you try to move toward unchanging truth through the application of scientific method, you actually do not move toward it at all. You move away from it! It is your application of scientific method that is causing it to change!

What Ph?drus observed on a personal level was a phenomenon, profoundly characteristic of the history of science, which has been swept under the carpet for years. The predicted results of scientific enquiry and the actual results of scientific enquiry are diametrically opposed here, and no one seems to pay too much attention to the fact. The purpose of scientific method is to select a single truth from among many hypothetical truths. That, more than anything else, is what science is all about. But historically science has done exactly the opposite. Through multiplication upon multiplication of facts, information, theories and hypotheses, it is science itself that is leading mankind from single absolute truths to multiple, indeterminate, relative ones. The major producer of the social chaos, the indeterminacy of thought and values that rational knowledge is supposed to eliminate, is none other than science itself. And what Ph?drus saw in the isolation of his own laboratory work years ago is now seen everywhere in the technological world today. Scientifically produced antiscience...chaos"


I am intuiting that this may figure into your immaterial soul arguement.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: The Limitations of Science [Re: ]
    #2249551 - 01/18/04 02:45 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

2. Science cannot tell us what is beautiful.



Maybe not in a more abstract way, but science has found patterns in what we tend to consider physically beautiful. For example, the more facial symmetry a person has, the more attractive they usually appear.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineBleaK
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Re: The Limitations of Science [Re: ]
    #2249580 - 01/18/04 02:56 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

science is only observation of things, and then manipulation of them. no scientist can tell u anything about what matter/energy actually is comprised of. they can only watch how the aperently magical unseen forces interact.


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"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


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OfflineSpecialEd
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Re: The Limitations of Science [Re: silversoul7]
    #2249603 - 01/18/04 03:03 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Maybe not in a more abstract way, but science has found patterns in what we tend to consider physically beautiful. For example, the more facial symmetry a person has, the more attractive they usually appear.




Your point is good, but the experience of beauty is far deeper than aesthetics.


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OfflinePsilocybeingzz
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Re: The Limitations of Science [Re: BleaK]
    #2249604 - 01/18/04 03:03 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

"no scientist can tell u anything about what matter/energy actually is comprised of."


You just answered that yourself actually,:) matter and energy are the same.

Read about quantum physics and you will see that science , philosophy and even religon(eastern ones :smile:) are VERY similar.


Strange I know......but true :smile:


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: The Limitations of Science [Re: ]
    #2249640 - 01/18/04 03:17 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

ok maybe we should define a couple of terms, thought you would have done that MM :wink:

science is the systematic knowledge of the physical or material world (dictionary).  it is simply knowledge gained from study (ala taking down data) and trying to see patterns.

philosophy:  the rational investigation of the truths and principles of being (again from the dictionary)

limitation: a limiting condition: a weakness or inability. (last time, dictionary)


whew *wipes forehead*

 
sweet...now I think there are a lot of loopholes in science itself (that is trying to explain what is happening in the "physical world"). the evidence is right there in front of us. what is this evidence? easy, blackholes, this supposed "dark matter" that doesn't really fit with a lot of "laws" that are supposed to be governing this planet. 

because it can't explain everything, science that is, doesn't necessarily mean sceince itself is limited, but that we are.  this is a sure indication of why we need philosophy as well :smile:

science by itself can't stand up to everything, just as philosophy can't.. in other words I believe that most of our attempts to explain what is and what isn't is limited. and I mean really, who would want to think from one point of view anyways?   

who would have the audacity to say that one point of view is the end all of questions?

what I find limiting of science is that they take the "best" outcome and try to apply math to it, in order to make a "proof."  Now sure equations can explain a lot, but most of the time when I'm doing a project (ie taking data down) I never get the correct answer (based on the proof).  I'll get close, but not even that close.

Another thing I'll say that I find limiting is that even if something doesn't match all the way (such as string theory) the theory is still tested over and over.  some may see this as a weakness, after all, this theory in the future could be meaningless. 

and you see that a lot too.  one theory a long time ago that was debunked as a crackpot, is now being reconsidered.  and the reverse happpens.  And that's the thing, many people who study in this field treat prinicples and theories as if they were true for all cases. 

hehe words limit science because science has it's own definitions (which is why I made that energy post :wink:) there's lots of limitations

but I'll attribute most of this limitation again to myself, because of the measuring tools I use (and how I used them), and because of the fact that events in the real world follows chance, and math (which is the tool used by science for "proofs") really sucks at that.  whether it's how many electrons are really in the atom, or if there's any oxygene in the petri dish, the outcome will be different for everyone.

again the limitations I see come from us.


now about god, no science can't explain that, but then again it doesn't try to.  poeple try to, not science itself.  you have people who try to intermingle philosophy and science, and they are the ones trying to dig out this "proof" on god (or extra terrestials).  science tries to explain how things work in the physcial world.


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Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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OfflineSole_Worthy
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Re: The Limitations of Science [Re: kaiowas]
    #2249955 - 01/18/04 06:54 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

I made a thread a few months ago in which I said:

"Science will stall at many fronts as it does not speak the language of God"

I believe that science can discover God and science can observe karma, but you need to expierience these things. Consiosness expierences these things. I used to look at science as something that has limited our spiritual growth, or posibly something that has distracted us from our spiritual past. Now I see science as something that can back up spiritual claims.


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Anonymous

Re: The Limitations of Science [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2250025 - 01/18/04 09:27 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

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Anonymous

Re: The Limitations of Science [Re: kaiowas]
    #2250027 - 01/18/04 09:36 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

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