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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: The Limitations of Science [Re: ]
    #2250137 - 01/18/04 09:42 AM (20 years, 15 days ago)

"It would be possible to describe everything scientifically, but it would make no sense; it would be without meaning, as if you described a Beethoven symphony as a variation of wave pressure." -- Albert Einstein

Science does not create Meaning...


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: The Limitations of Science [Re: silversoul7]
    #2250151 - 01/18/04 09:54 AM (20 years, 15 days ago)

Quote:

Maybe not in a more abstract way, but science has found patterns in what we tend to consider physically beautiful. For example, the more facial symmetry a person has, the more attractive they usually appear.




actually, the degree of attractiveness is really about averages.

At my school, they are the leader in these experiments: They take a bunch of regular faces and they use a computer to make a composite face out of all the faces. Then they ask students to rate the faces (both composite and non) . The composites all ways score the highest. The more faces that went into a composite, the higher it scores.

theory says that this is an evolved mechanism in our hormonal/ arousal system. The more average a face is, the more it is a genetically "safe bet".

But greek statues are pretty though. I suspect Michaelangelo knew about face compositing, at least intuitively.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: The Limitations of Science [Re: ]
    #2250228 - 01/18/04 10:36 AM (20 years, 15 days ago)

"1. Science cannot tell us what is good or evil.
2. Science cannot tell us what is beautiful. "

There is no evidence that science will never be able to explain these things. The fact that these things are not understood, in fact, has nothing to do whatsoever with a limitation of the scientific process. This is akin to saying that science is flawed because we don't understand exactly how a black hole is created. Just because we haven't yet been able to explain something using science does not mean that science is unable to do so. Even if we're never able to explain these things using science, that's not a flaw in the scientific process, it simply means that we've been unable to use science to explain these things.

These are ideas driven by emotions.

For instance, if I look at a sunset and think it's beautiful, it's not a property of the sunset, it's an emotional reaction on my part.

We can study the properties of things humans find beautiful and attempt to design a system for quantifying beauty, but it would be impossible to make it completely universal, as humans all have different perceptions of what beauty is.

This doesn't mean, however, that we'll never fully understand the mechanisms of the mind relating to beauty. We cannot fully understand why something is perceived as beautiful without understanding how the mind works.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: The Limitations of Science [Re: trendal]
    #2250254 - 01/18/04 10:48 AM (20 years, 15 days ago)

"Science does not create Meaning..."

Then again, meaning is also a property created by humans. Pondering ideas like meaning, beauty, and morality can give us great insight into the ways we think, but will not necessarily give us any insight outside of our own interpretation of the world.

In other words, if you tell me that you think a certain scene is beautiful, or that you believe a certain act to be immoral tells me something about the way you think, but does not offer any real information about the scene or the act you're discussing, as opinions and perception can vary greatly.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: The Limitations of Science [Re: ]
    #2250281 - 01/18/04 11:03 AM (20 years, 15 days ago)

Science cannot explain the origins of the Universe.
By the laws of science, our universe should not exist, because "Where did it come from?" By the laws of science, something never comes from nothing, so where did the universe come from? And once you figure that out, then ask, "Where did THAT come from?" Using science, you will never arrive at the necessary "First Cause" to explain the origin of the universe.



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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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Anonymous

Re: The Limitations of Science [Re: Phluck]
    #2250293 - 01/18/04 11:07 AM (20 years, 15 days ago)

- Post History Deleted Upon User's Request -


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Anonymous

Re: The Limitations of Science [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2250299 - 01/18/04 11:10 AM (20 years, 15 days ago)

- Post History Deleted Upon User's Request -


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: The Limitations of Science [Re: Phluck]
    #2250310 - 01/18/04 11:16 AM (20 years, 15 days ago)

All this said, I do think that thinking about and discussing ideas such as morality, ethics, and beauty is extremely important, as it creating art and trying to express our emotions and perceptions.

The goal in science is to document the evidence we have, and to map out the world around us, while the exploration of beauty and morality is an exploration of ourselves, and how we can explore our perceptions and cultivate inner peace and contentment. This has no bearing on universal facts or truths, other than our own emotions and perceptions.

We even use a system of observation, not unlike the scientific process, to cultivate what many refer to as our spiritual growth.

For instance, by observing a lack of inner peace, and by observing the fact that many claim to have acheived tranquility and contemplativness through meditiation, we may devise the hypothesis that meditation could be the answer we're looking for. So we research the idea, and experiment with meditation, observe the results we've achieved and then come to a conclusion as to whether or not we feel that meditation has worked for us, and brought about the desired results. Then we'll choose to adopt it as a regular practice or not.

Another thought:

It may be that it is necessary to completely abandon the search for real observable truth in order to acheive certain mental "spiritual" states.

A fakhir, for instance, may need to abandon the knowledge of how the mind actually works, and replace it with a simplified mystical version (such as the idea of 'chi') in order to achieve the faith and mind state necessary to slow his breathing and heart rate to a level that would allow him to be buried underground in a box for a week. This does not mean that 'chi' is a more accurate explanation whatsoever, it simply means that a more rational and informed understanding might foster doubts about ones own abilities, preventing the full realization of these abilities.

(This isn't necessarily true, it could be perfectly possible to achieve a meditative state such as this without altering one's view in such a way. I'm just exploring the idea of abandoning truth in order to achieve other goals.)

So it kind of comes down to a balance between the search for contentment, and the search for truth. Many people seem to assume that if they've found one, they've found the other but for some, achieving both may not even be possible.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflineFrog
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Re: The Limitations of Science [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2250331 - 01/18/04 11:28 AM (20 years, 15 days ago)

That was an excellent read, Ed. Thanks for posting it.


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: The Limitations of Science [Re: ]
    #2250339 - 01/18/04 11:30 AM (20 years, 15 days ago)

It should also be noted that there isn't anything that CAN accurately explain ideas such as beauty or good and evil.

Philosophy can be used to explore ideas surrounding them, or to devise explanations which, if testable, could be a scientific hypothesis, but are not necessarily accurate, or even close to accurate.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: The Limitations of Science [Re: Frog]
    #2250347 - 01/18/04 11:37 AM (20 years, 15 days ago)

Hey Froggy! :grin:

I hacked into your account.


--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: The Limitations of Science [Re: Phluck]
    #2250376 - 01/18/04 11:51 AM (20 years, 15 days ago)

These posts were the result of a post acid trip burst of energy... I think I'll fluff this out into a full essay or something combined with some of the ideas from my skepticism post.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflineFrog
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Re: The Limitations of Science [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2250538 - 01/18/04 01:32 PM (20 years, 15 days ago)

Quote:

SkorpivoMusterion said:
Hey Froggy! :grin:

I hacked into your account.




Um, and what that mean, Skorpivo?  Did you get the numbers I stored there to all my off-shore accounts?  To my credit cards?  :eyemouth:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: The Limitations of Science [Re: Frog]
    #2250549 - 01/18/04 01:39 PM (20 years, 15 days ago)

NO, but I see you got some interesting pics here.


--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: The Limitations of Science [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2250555 - 01/18/04 01:41 PM (20 years, 15 days ago)

Sigh. What am I supposed to do now? Sue you? I'm really glad I deleted the nudes of me last night. Someone warned me that there were people good at hacking personal accounts. So I took appropriate measures.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: The Limitations of Science [Re: Frog]
    #2250557 - 01/18/04 01:42 PM (20 years, 15 days ago)

lolol

it was all too easy.

:devil:


--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: The Limitations of Science [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2250596 - 01/18/04 01:57 PM (20 years, 14 days ago)

*scratches head*

I don't know whether to laugh at you or call you an asshole.

:grin:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineFrog
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Re: The Limitations of Science [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2250599 - 01/18/04 01:58 PM (20 years, 14 days ago)

And you're just way too fuckin' proud of yourself...


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: The Limitations of Science [Re: Frog]
    #2250622 - 01/18/04 02:05 PM (20 years, 14 days ago)

I know...I know...

And the cool thing is.... they're technically supposed to ban me for conducting such espionage..

But, as you can see, I'm still here, even after having being all blatant about it...

And I'll still be here tomorrow...and the next day...and so on...unbanned. :grin:

Do you know why? :wink:


--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: The Limitations of Science [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2250626 - 01/18/04 02:07 PM (20 years, 14 days ago)

Please do tell.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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