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InvisibleShroomismM
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Science as a vice
    #3397326 - 11/23/04 07:44 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

A lot of time I see people using science as a crutch, touting it as the ultimate truth. While I recognize science as a very important path in our development as a species, I see a very critical error in holding so strong to it and not remaining open to new ideas and change. Science has been changed a thousand times in the past, as new 'facts' come to the surface into common knowledge. Why, not even 500 years ago it was scientifically accepted that the Sun revolved around the Earth. You could drill holes in people's heads to release the demons.

So what makes everyone so confident that science is so perfect right now? I'd be more inclined to question science than to blindly follow it. Especially in this age of information and technology, it becomes increasingly important to have the correct facts. What happens if you base an entire system on a foundation that is not accurate? hmm...

If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts.
- Albert Einstein




Now I acknowledge there are those of us that are using science for good.. with an open heart and mind.. but I see people using science almost as a weapon, and it saddens me. Why must science imply a condescending attitude towards "thinking outside the box-ers" that I so often see.. why does modern science demand one to automatically debunk everything not within the range of 'normal'. I see much bias.. very little objectivity.

What I would ideally like to see is a merging of science and spirituality. A self-correcting system that approaches science humbly and with the knowledge that we are all spiritual beings first and foremost. This would solve a lot of problems and dissent among the two sides. It would also do wonders for both science and spirituality.

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.
Albert Einstein, "Science, Philosophy and Religion: a Symposium", 1941



The truth is that science is still in its infancy. Especially when you get into things like quantum astrophysics, mechanics, physics.. you can't be so sure you are dealing with absolutes. We don't have it all figured out yet people. Though I do still see people using science as their ultimate crutch, falling back on it when creativity fails them.. using it to smugly gloat that through their system of science, you can't prove in the existence of aliens or trans-dimensional energy systems of what have you, and to prove those things to them, you may only use their system of science. You see what I'm getting at?

It can certainly be a catch-22, a double-edged sword. People, science must evolve if we are going to evolve as a species. This is not 312 BC. We have learned a lot, come a long way, but that doesn't mean we should be so arrogant and cocky about our (sketchy) form of science, that can change at any moment with the arrival of new facts or information. Don't be so quick to use it as your only means of logic, because it may all come crashing down without notice. Use that brain you've been given.

Let's focus on developing a spiritual science.. one that considers the facts from every angle. Is rational and objective, and does not discredit things so easily. A science that focuses on and flows with, the cycles of nature. It's time to evolve.


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: Science as a vice [Re: Shroomism]
    #3397367 - 11/23/04 07:57 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

I agree.


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Science as a vice [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3397384 - 11/23/04 08:03 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

A lot of people think of me as a very non-scientific person.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

I have a very logical mind, however it is my nature (as an aqaurius and as myself) to come up with new concepts and ideas that shatter the old mold. I absolutely despise conforming to someone elses system of thought. It is my nature to think outside the box, and much of my thought is focused on humanity and unity.

So when you see me arguing against science, it is only that system of science which I am so vehemently against. Science itself, as a pure untouched entity of questions and logic and rational thinking.. I love, and use it all the time.

-be ye as a young child.. big eyes full of wonder, where the world is mysterious and exciting - THATS science


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: Science as a vice [Re: Shroomism]
    #3397394 - 11/23/04 08:05 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Same. :wink: I hear you man, definitely.


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: Science as a vice [Re: Shroomism]
    #3397405 - 11/23/04 08:09 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

If science can debunk things then I think it should. After all, if something can be debunked then it is not true.

I think that science is actually fairly open to new ideas. Quantum physics contradicts relativity, if I remember correctly. Science just doesn't like to make a "best guess". It's total proof or nothing.


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Science as a vice [Re: deafpanda]
    #3397419 - 11/23/04 08:21 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

That's all well and good.. but science is not open enough to new ideas.

Also, just because you can debunk something, does not make it untrue. You can debunk someone or something by lying, or slandering them.. it may not be true.. but as long as the general populace believes your lies than the debunking is successful. Debunk = v : expose while ridiculing; especially of pretentious or false claims and ideas.. one can make things up, or twist the facts. It's just a matter of 'exposing' the person or idea, and making them appear to look foolish or nonsensical through a variety of methods.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Science as a vice [Re: Shroomism]
    #3397437 - 11/23/04 08:30 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Also, just because you can debunk something, does not make it untrue

false claims and ideas

What part of that are you haveing trouble understanding?


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Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Edited by Diploid (11/23/04 08:37 AM)


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: Science as a vice [Re: Shroomism]
    #3397458 - 11/23/04 08:37 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

That is not what debunking means. Debunking means disproving. If someone convinces others wrongly of something's falsehood then that's not debunking, that's deceiving.

Blame the people who manipulate science, not science itself.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Science as a vice [Re: deafpanda]
    #3397463 - 11/23/04 08:40 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

If someone convinces others wrongly of something's falsehood then that's not debunking, that's deceiving.

This is what you're doing when you claim something exists that has no basis in fact, and which has never been seen, and which you can't provide even indirect evidence of. Deceiving.


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Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Science as a vice [Re: deafpanda]
    #3397474 - 11/23/04 08:43 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

That's what I'm saying.. the people who are manipulating science.. I'm not blaming science itself. I'm talking about the people perverting it.

learn to read
Debunk = expose while ridiculing, ESPECIALLY of pretentious or false claims and ideas. Not necessarily..especially. false claims or ideas is not a pre-requisite for debunking. You can debunk something that is true, or someone that is telling the truth, by defacing their character, and a vast number of ways. What part of that do you not understand?


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Science as a vice [Re: Diploid]
    #3397481 - 11/23/04 08:44 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Facts change.


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: Science as a vice [Re: Shroomism]
    #3397491 - 11/23/04 08:47 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

I did read that, but I disagreed with that definition of debunking.

From m-w.com:

Main Entry: de?bunk
Pronunciation: (")dE-'b&[ng]k
Function: transitive verb
: to expose the sham or falseness of <debunk a legend>
- de?bunk?er noun

There's nothing about ridiculing in there. It is necessary using this definition that the thing being debunked is false. Otherwise it is not being debunked.

Okay I just found another definition that does mention ridicule, but again it supports my view that something being debunked must be false.
From dictionary.com:

To expose or ridicule the falseness, sham, or exaggerated claims of: debunk a supposed miracle drug.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Science as a vice [Re: Shroomism]
    #3397502 - 11/23/04 08:51 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Facts change.

Well, I'll agree with this with a qualified "ok". But, let's discount the possibility that any given 'fact' could change in the future, I stipulate that it may.

What fact can you provide now to support your claim that a Photon Band exists? And don't go all crazy giving me a half-million Google links; anyone can make an uncontested web site. That's not good enough.

Truth can withstand scrutiny. If your claims are true, then they should be able to stand up to the light of critical analysis. If they can't then they're not true.

Your claims about scientific evidence for the Photon Band, to be seen as valid, must be subjected to scrutiny by people who have studied the field of science in which the claim is made: astronomy. There are numerous texts, and journals (magazines) about astronomy published all the time. I have diligently looked for a report of the Photon Band, really, I have. I haven't found a single mention other than in New Age (non-science) magazines.

If your claim is true, then it should have been seen by the people whose life work is to look for exactly these kinds of things; people who would probably win the Nobel Prize were they to discover a Photon Band as you describe. Why haven't any of them done so?

Does this make sense to you?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Edited by Diploid (11/23/04 09:01 AM)


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OfflineSource
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Re: Science as a vice [Re: Diploid]
    #3397903 - 11/23/04 11:01 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

The way I look at it, science can help us to understand the objective world but can say nothing about the observer that witnesses the objective world. Understanding the observer is in the realm of mysticism.

So, 'render unto ceasar that which is ceasar's (let science explain the objective world) and render unto God that which is God's (discover your identity as the pure wareness which is the ground of being of the objective world). Please excuse the crude reference.

I don't think that science and spirituality need to fight, unless one begins to encroach into the realm of the other.


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What you're searching for is what's searching.


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: Science as a vice [Re: Source]
    #3398011 - 11/23/04 11:34 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

I agree.  As you basically said, science is never bad unless it is not science :smile:


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Science as a vice [Re: Shroomism]
    #3398013 - 11/23/04 11:34 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

So what makes everyone so confident that science is so perfect right now?

Nothing, though I think you already know how I view science :wink:

Science is not an END. It isn't even really a means to an end. It's just a process, though one which is (I must admit) dear to my heart.

If anyone, anyone, decides to give up this fact (that science is an ONGOING process) and believe that science is "The Answer"...they are not following true science. They have made a religion out of a tool.

That being said...I have not found ANYTHING in my life that provides a better or more CONSISTENT way of understanding the world around me than to use the Scientific Method.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Science as a vice [Re: Shroomism]
    #3398209 - 11/23/04 12:16 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Science has been changed a thousand times in the past, as new 'facts' come to the surface into common knowledge. Why, not even 500 years ago it was scientifically accepted that the Sun revolved around the Earth. You could drill holes in people's heads to release the demons.

What science did they use to come to those conclusions?
None. Those were things that people made up or believed.

After ACTUAL science came about, we used the analysis of data to learn that the earth revolves around the sun. They weren't doing that before.

That is the fundamental difference in the knowledge we have today, and the knowledge we had in the past.


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Science as a vice [Re: deafpanda]
    #3398218 - 11/23/04 12:19 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

I agree. As you basically said, science is never bad unless it is not science

Precisely. When arguing with someone who says science isn't perfect, usually the examples they give are when people don't properly use science.


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Science as a vice [Re: Shroomism]
    #3398313 - 11/23/04 12:38 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Why must science imply a condescending attitude towards "thinking outside the box-ers" that I so often see.. why does modern science demand one to automatically debunk everything not within the range of 'normal'. I see much bias.. very little objectivity.

The nature of science is to be highly critical. Thousands of new ideas are proposed everyday, and it takes time and money to investigate them.

The proposal of new ideas is not science. Science is the analysis, testing, and criticism of new ideas.

So when a scientist sees a new idea that doesn't really make any sense, and he tears it apart, he's really giving it the same treatment he would to a good idea, only he's found many flaws in it.

Many scientists would tell you that if there's absolutely no way to test your hypothesis, then there's no way that it can be analyzed scientifically.

A self-correcting system that approaches science humbly and with the knowledge that we are all spiritual beings first and foremost.

Why should scientists start making assumptions about the universe that are unprovable? If I propose that spirituality is nothing more than a quirk of human psychology and will not offer us any clues into the actual nature of reality, where can you show me that this has been disproven to the point that all scientists need to completely abandon the idea and adhere to your view of what spirituality is?

Let's focus on developing a spiritual science.. one that considers the facts from every angle. Is rational and objective, and does not discredit things so easily. A science that focuses on and flows with, the cycles of nature. It's time to evolve.

How do we do that?


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Science as a vice [Re: Shroomism]
    #3398327 - 11/23/04 12:41 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Vice
n.

1.a. An evil, degrading, or immoral practice or habit.
b. A serious moral failing.
c. Wicked or evil conduct or habits; corruption.
2. Sexual immorality, especially prostitution.
3.a. A slight personal failing; a foible.
b. A flaw or imperfection; a defect.
4. A physical defect or weakness.
5. An undesirable habid, such as crib-biting, in a domestic animal.
6. a. A character representing generalized or particular vice in English morality plays.
b. A jester or buffoon.

Please explain the correlation of science and immoral habits (vice).


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Anxiety is what you make it.


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Science as a vice [Re: Shroomism]
    #3398381 - 11/23/04 12:54 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Einstein himself said science can be politically manipulated to suit personal views , interests or needs.
I believe what he said, it really is manipulated. The fact that Tesla theories where somehow "forgotten" makes me think about how far things like free energy or alternative energy sources are right now.

MAIA


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Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Science as a vice [Re: Shroomism]
    #3398533 - 11/23/04 01:21 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Why must science imply a condescending attitude towards "thinking outside the box-ers" that I so often see..
Making a radical and unsubstantiated claim, does NOT require any sort of thinking.

why does modern science demand one to automatically debunk everything not within the range of 'normal'.
It has nothing to do with a range of normal as new frontiers are expanded daily. It has to with a lack of solid evidence.

The truth is that science is still in its infancy.
The scientific method is quite mature. Our scientific knowledge will always be seen as being in it's infancy as each new discovery, by its very nature, opens the door to many more unanswered questions.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Science as a vice [Re: MAIA]
    #3398551 - 11/23/04 01:25 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

The fact that Tesla theories where somehow "forgotten"
*Checks out house and discovers that it is running on AC. Then checks out electric motor in refrigerator.* Yup! Totally forgotten.  :rolleyes:

makes me think about how far things like free energy or alternative energy sources are right now.
Clarify. Does not make grammatical sense.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Science as a vice [Re: MAIA]
    #3398744 - 11/23/04 02:02 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

"Einstein himself said that science can be politically motivated to suit personal views, interests or needs."

Good point. As an example, Edison and Westinghouse regarding the use of DC power vs. AC power. Edison had financial interests in touting DC power and diligently fought against AC power on the basis of how "dangerous" it was. At one point, Edison gathered a group of reporters and interested parties and ran AC power through a dog up on the stage to show that it was dangerous to the dog.

A modern day example is stem cell research. Many people are opposed to embryonic stem cell research on a moral basis. It has become a political issue.


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Anxiety is what you make it.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Science as a vice [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #3398857 - 11/23/04 02:26 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Because so many of the tools used in modern science are far beyond the monetary reach of most people, we are forced to do a LOT of science under the threat of canceled funding (and thus canceled research). The pressure turns away from pure knowledge and towards the act of invention itself. Why work on anything if it isn't profitable?

The scientists and the inventors used to be two different groups. Usually the inventors would create something new, first, and then the scientists would explain the how and why of its workings. First the tide was turned, so that scientists were discovering new things for which there was no "use" for, then later the inventors would use this knowledge to create things. Now we have combined the two into a mesh-work of pure theory and profitable applications. In some fields most of the ground-breaking research is being done privately these days, for pure profit reasons. This does push towards advancement but in specific and often predetermined directions, taking away most of the "chance" discoveries that can so often change the world. If Flemming lived today, doing research for a private company, he probably wouldn't have spent the time to find out why the penicillin killed bacteria. If he is paid only to research the bacteria, he can't spend time on the fungus. So discoveries are probably made, but either kept quiet or forgotten because they weren't what the chequebooks wanted. What does make it out is over-priced, hyped up, and sometimes not the safest ideas.

Don't let the drug companies fool you...they don't really "care" about you or your life.

Science has done a wonderful job at explaining most of the familiar world around us. Perhaps too good, in a way, as it has pushed the research to the unfamiliar. The measuring tools cost thousands to billions of dollars, cutting off most people from the actual research. I wish I could afford a powerful particle accelerator...but I'd have to settle for a low-power basement hack :smirk:

(/rant)


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Offlinedeff
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Re: Science as a vice [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #3398867 - 11/23/04 02:28 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Before I post my views on this, I just want to spout a little background information so as to prevent some false bias to be assumed on me. My mind is very 'scientific' - as in, I hold a very high level of scrutiny to my own ideas and beliefs. What is commonly considered science, or 'main-stream' science, is also something that I appreciate very much. I feel it does an amazing job at describing our OBSERVATIONS of the "physical" and consensual 'reality'. I keep myself educated in physics and chemistry, and will soon be starting a nanotechnology program.

That said, I also am spiritually minded, as in I have a deep yearning for truth - and not just consensual "truth" - but beyond physical altogether, into the mysterty of self existence, or the 'spirit'. I hold all of these beliefs and 'theories' to the same level of scrutiny associated with mainstream science, as this is not just a fun 'game' for me, but something that I yearn to improve on, something that I strive towards self integrity of my own thoughts.

Ok, so that's out of the way. I am neither hardcore "for" or "against" science. Like trendal said, it is an evolving process of describing our consensual observations. It is amazing what it has lead to, and what it will even further lead to. Clearly, there is consensual human "truth" in science, in that an observation person A makes can allow person B to design a certain technology, that persons C D and E can all enjoy. However, science is all too often mistaken for an 'end', or an all inclusive forumla of existence.

Ask an animal if a CD player is the same thing to it as it is to a human. Or better yet, for communication purposes, ask a mentally handicapped person incapable of 'understanding' or using the technology. Suddenly, while the object may remain the same, the scientific concept behind it is different. Now, please do not say that we non-handicapped humans are superior and 'correct' while others are 'deluded' and 'wrong'. Experience is experience, plain and simply.

Science only ventures and explains the overlapping qualities of our individualized experiences. And it does an amazing job at this. The technology and processes we have today, such as me hitting polymer keys to convey this 'message' through spacetime - all through electron movement, is mind blowing. However, there is so much that science cannot explain, things that are often passed off as "imaginary" or "unreal" (how pretentious of views...) by some scientifcally minded people. There is so much uniqueness and individual aspects of our realities that will never manifest themselves consensually. We have been molded to try and comply to "consensual truth" through our use of common language, common "logic", the scientific model, ect. We have as a species categorized some of our experience as "real" and some as "not real". This is ridiculous. If it is experienced, it is REAL.

And so, things like OOBEs, dreams, meditation experiences, non-verbal thoughts, certain energy senses, manipulations, BEINGnesses are all unexpressable through science as they are not consensual. We try to make up for this, try to synchronize our realities, in so many ways. We make up the concept of "emotions" and "feelings", when an actual moment of BEINGness is unique unto itself, there are no categories of experience, there just IS.

To avoid rambling too long, I decided to draw a diagram. The circles represent an individual's "reality" or atleast what they perceieve their reality to be. Really, each is infinite within itself, limited only by the conception of their own limitations, but that's another issue. Where all four overlap indicates what consensual "objective" (i laugh at this notion :smile:) science can "prove". The areas where two or three overlap indicate "shared phenomenon" - as in experiences similar to certain realities but not ALL. These can included a ton of things, such as OBEs, religious experiences, whatever. Note the circle at the bottom corner. It could be someone with shizophrenia or completely detached from "common reality". What they experience IS REAL too, just different, and passed off by consensual science as "delusions".



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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Science as a vice [Re: trendal]
    #3398999 - 11/23/04 02:49 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

I say, instead of wasting billions of dollars to incarcerate innocent people, and building weapons of war with which to kill people, and poisoning ourselves with cancerous chemicals and radiation.. we spend that money and research thinking of new ways to improve the life of everyone alive and not just a lucky few, everyone should be given equal rights and education, and instead of killing each other and focusing on death and taxes we start loving each other while celebrating life and diversity eh?

Basically I think that once technology reaches a certain point there has to be a spiritual understanding of its implications.. or else. stem cell research, nuclear weapons, cloning.. these are some of the things that demand a spiritual acknowledgement. Technology will only take a civilization so far, if their technology gets too far ahead of their spirituality it can be disasterous, taking for example Mars, what was once Maldek or Marduk, Atlantis..

How about amazing technology that cleans the air and oceans and rivers, how about freaking nuclear neutralizers. How about some technology that diagnoses the human energy system, and while we are at it, perpetual energy machines, activated merkabas, and food for all. Why don't we spend billions of dollars and research on things that makes everyone happy. Why, because it's controlled, for the elite few. that's why. There's much more of us than there is of them.


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: Science as a vice [Re: Shroomism]
    #3399378 - 11/23/04 04:15 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

heh, the human race on earth itself is STILL in its infancy.

science relies on human thought and obviously humans aren't perfect.

when I studied physics for a couple of years in college, the first thing that our professor told us what that everything we would be speaking of is really a bunch of concepts and are subject to change.

scientist already recognize the fact that the system itself isn't perfect, and that there isn't one standard. what you are saying shroomism is what MANY scientists already know.

here's the idea....

the label of "out of the boxers" that you have applied to yourself have the knack of saying "what is" when how do you really know? not only that, but you say things in which you have found no evidence over. I'm all for new ideas and new modes of thought, but after a while, if there isn't any primary evidence, then why mention it?

how can you say "I know what is" when most of us don't have a clue?

note that I didn't say that in this thread the outside the boxers have made claims, but outside this thread they have.

if there is nothing suggesting a certain idea, then how were these ideas brought about?

these are the type of question a critical thinker would ask. this is not to say this is totally how I personally think, but I would probably ask you the same question


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Science as a vice [Re: Source]
    #3399750 - 11/23/04 05:44 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

I don't think that science and spirituality need to fight, unless one begins to encroach into the realm of the other.

That's exactly what's happening here when Shroomism insists that the Photon Belt, described by him as:

Quote:

a spiral of multidimensional light that starts in Alcyone in the Pleiades and ends at our Sun. in other words, the photon 'belt' is an immense region of space which is radiating intense electromagnetic radiation throughout the visible spectrum and beyond,




will, in the year 2012, cause:

Quote:

A change in the frequency of which sub-atomic particles vibrate. Our current frequency is 9,000-12,000 times per second, it will jump to 12,000 to 15,000.




He then proceeds to provide links to web sites with maps of the colonies living inside the hollow Earth as supporting evidence for his claims. This is superstition encroaching in the realm of science.

As long as he continues to call this science, and continues to refuse to provide supporting evidence published in a peer-reviewed journal, I will continue to challenge him in the grand tradition of good science.

If you want to play the game called science, I'm going to make sure you abide by the rules.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Science as a vice [Re: deff]
    #3399805 - 11/23/04 05:59 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

a little background information so as to prevent some false bias to be assumed on me

I hold a very high level of scrutiny to my own ideas and beliefs.

deff, give me a break, 'high level of scrutiny'!

Aren't you the one who claims telekinetic powers by 'demonstrating' them to yourself using a finicky electronic scale (with old batteries!) that you yourself said was acting up? Want me to dig up a link to the thread?

Yet you steadfastly refuse every opportunity to get rich by demonstrating your powers?

Sheesh! What's next?

[/looks for a shovel]


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Edited by Diploid (11/26/04 12:00 AM)


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Offlinedeff
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Re: Science as a vice [Re: Diploid]
    #3400429 - 11/23/04 08:18 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Heh, nope :smile:

That was somebody else

I claim only a pinwheel, some lids, and flames - all of which I proved to myself under 'scrutiny' :smile:


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Science as a vice [Re: Shroomism]
    #3400578 - 11/23/04 08:54 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

As has already been pointed out, science is not static. It is not dogma. It is a process by which we learn more about our universe. The fact that previous ideas about the universe have been proven wrong is testament not to the weakness, but rather the strength of science. It is flexible--able to adapt as new information comes in. There are paradigm shifts in science, in which much of what we previously assumed to be true is proven to be either false or incomplete. Of course this can be frustrating, but the way I see it, it's very much preferable to dogmas which resist new information, often outright denying it(as seen with Creationism). Much of what we think we know today will likely be proven wrong or incomplete someday, but that's ok. That's progress.

Having said that, science will not bring you enlightenment. It will not bring you happiness. It will not give you a purpose in life. That is all up to you.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleJellric
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Re: Science as a vice [Re: kaiowas]
    #3401050 - 11/23/04 10:18 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

I agree with some of what Shroomism said. Never forget that scientists are human beings. They pretend to be objective, unbiased observers, but all too often they engage in many of the same turf battles and pissing matches that religious people engage in with other religious people.

When a new scientific paradigm starts gaining strength, old line eggheads will use ridicule, play statistical games, and generally behave like school children and asses. It often takes a generation for a new scientific discovery to gain a concensus. (That is the time needed for the dinosaurs to die out).

I would like to see humanity take our feet off the brakes and break loose to see what we can really do in both the scientific and religious realms. But the forces of progress always face an upwards climb against the forces of repression and entrenchment. Aren't you tired of hearing that a scientific advance is 10 years away and it ends up being 30 or more? They always underestimate the time it takes!

Dammit where are the flying cars we were promised?!?!


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I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Science as a vice [Re: Swami]
    #3408114 - 11/25/04 12:57 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
The fact that Tesla theories where somehow "forgotten"
*Checks out house and discovers that it is running on AC. Then checks out electric motor in refrigerator.* Yup! Totally forgotten.  :rolleyes:




Oh and radio, fluorescent light, AC induction motors, Tesla coil. But anyway, you're right, i'll rephrase it to "The fact that some Tesla theories where somehow "forgotten"". Better now :wink: ?

Quote:

makes me think about how far things like free energy or alternative energy sources are right now.
Clarify. Does not make grammatical sense.




If free energy - Tesla was the first one to come up with such theory - is attainable then you have a new and alternative energy source.
Something for you to read. This is related to the "forgotten" "Dynamic theory of gravity".

From http://www.iridis.com/glivar/Dynamic_theory_of_gravity

Quote:


....
Records seized
It is not clear if the full theory is recorded in any of Tesla's papers, as many of his effects were seized by the United States Federal Government immediately following his death in 1943 and declared Most Secret to prevent information about the theories and inventions Tesla was working on (some of them very dramatic, although apparently impractical, including a 'ray gun' intended to shoot down aircraft [referred to as teleforce]) falling into the hands of the axis powers. No papers relating to the theory of dynamic gravity are among the materials released under FOIA; some point out that Tesla generally did not write much down, and may have kept his work on gravity entirely in memory; others suggest that he did elaborate the theory in writing but that the materials have been kept classified.

Impact afterwards
At the time of his death Tesla was considered a bizarre crackpot by many because of his eccentric behaviour. Tesla's reputation as a "mad scientist" in later life means much of his later work was discredited or at least disregarded and ignored by the scientific establishment at the time. His controversial reputation was also exploited by the popular press and only served to enhance it. His "mad scientist" reputation and both the secrecy and the mysterious circumstances surrounding his death have allowed conspiracy theorists to make additional propositions to the theory than Tesla revealed initially.
.....




Go to link for full text.

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Science as a vice [Re: Jellric]
    #3408139 - 11/25/04 01:13 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)


I agree with some of what Shroomism said. Never forget that scientists are human beings. They pretend to be objective, unbiased observers, but all too often they engage in many of the same turf battles and pissing matches that religious people engage in with other religious people.


True, to some extent, but this is not a flaw in science. This is a flaw in human nature, causing people to not practice real science. The real problem in that case, is the fact that science is NOT being used.

However, I think this IS actually happening less and less. As the idea that we need to always be ready to question what we think is true, and always need to be ready to change our minds becomes a more common meme in society, new scientists are psychologically more prepared for this kind of thinking.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibleJellric
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Re: Science as a vice [Re: Phluck]
    #3408148 - 11/25/04 01:19 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Agreed. That is why I was careful to say the "scientists" were at fault, not science.

The same can be said for spirituality incidently. The fault is not in the spirit, but in those who try to misuse it or create trouble through misunderstanding it.


--------------------
I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Science as a vice [Re: Shroomism]
    #3408149 - 11/25/04 01:19 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

How about some technology that diagnoses the human energy system, and while we are at it, perpetual energy machines, activated merkabas, and food for all.

Well, first of all, people have been working for ages on trying to invent a perpetual motion machine, with no success. Mainly because it's impossible with conventional physics. Maybe in the future we'll be able to pull energy from other dimensions through wacky quantum mechanics, but we aren't there yet.

Assuming that the "human energy system", or "merkabas" even exist is presumptuous, as there's no actual evidence to support these things.

And finally, things like genetically modified foods, and biotechnology are actually being used by many scientists to discover ways of producing huge amounts of food with less effort. Of course lots of people are biased, and assume that anything too sciency must be evil, so there are all kinds of claims that these foods are harmful, even though there's not a whole lot of evidence to back that up. I'm sure that the people who died of starvation in Somalia (I think, could have been a different african country) because Greenpeace managed to successfully lobby to have a huge donation of GM foods blocked are glad that these people are working to save them from evil foods.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Science as a vice [Re: Jellric]
    #3408161 - 11/25/04 01:25 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

The same can be said for spirituality incidently. The fault is not in the spirit, but in those who try to misuse it or create trouble through misunderstanding it.

That, of course, depends on what your goals are. Do you want information, or emotional tranquility?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Science as a vice [Re: Phluck]
    #3408184 - 11/25/04 01:32 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Maybe in the future we'll be able to pull energy from other dimensions through wacky quantum mechanics, but we aren't there yet.

Perpetual motion machines are impossible. If some device is ever created to "pull energy from other dimensions", it will not be a perpetual motion machine, it will be an energy transfer/conversion device no different than a hydroelectric dam, solar energy collector, or even a battery which converts chemical energy to electric energy.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Science as a vice [Re: Diploid]
    #3408189 - 11/25/04 01:33 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Yup, you're absolutely right.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Science as a vice [Re: Phluck]
    #3408584 - 11/25/04 03:44 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

This has proven to be an interesting thread, quite the interchange of perspectives be happenin' up in this bitch. :lol:

So it seems that the consensus is that science itself, which is basically an investigative tool, is not responsible for the obstructions of free idea exchange and the advancement of understanding, but the people using the tool themselves? This seems reasonable to me - the microscope is crystal-clear, it is the aging man with the cataracts that isn't seeing reality clearly. :wink:

Science obviously is an extremely powerful tool in regards to the vast domain it has influence over, and imperfect humans with their imperfect understandings and their faults of character have unawarely misused science and the results of science. It's like leaving a two year old with a computer - you have to hope that the kid will grow up to learn how to operate the computer on his own without destroying the computer in the process. :lol:

Anyways, clearly science is limited by two things - the realm that science can encompass and the people using science. In the case of the former, science's realm naturally expands with the unobstructed usage of science itself - one question naturally produces more questions. In the case of the latter, people need to evolve as human beings before they will collectively begin to properly use science (as well as every other tool). The fact that we have gotten as far as we have suggests that we are getting there, as we have had no operation manuals along the way.

So, essentially, ja, I don't really know where I am going with this, apparently that is all the farther I intended on going. :smirk:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: Science as a vice [Re: fireworks_god]
    #3409614 - 11/25/04 08:13 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

maybe in the future we'll all be superhumans.


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