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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Science as a vice [Re: Shroomism]
    #3398381 - 11/23/04 12:54 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Einstein himself said science can be politically manipulated to suit personal views , interests or needs.
I believe what he said, it really is manipulated. The fact that Tesla theories where somehow "forgotten" makes me think about how far things like free energy or alternative energy sources are right now.

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Science as a vice [Re: Shroomism]
    #3398533 - 11/23/04 01:21 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Why must science imply a condescending attitude towards "thinking outside the box-ers" that I so often see..
Making a radical and unsubstantiated claim, does NOT require any sort of thinking.

why does modern science demand one to automatically debunk everything not within the range of 'normal'.
It has nothing to do with a range of normal as new frontiers are expanded daily. It has to with a lack of solid evidence.

The truth is that science is still in its infancy.
The scientific method is quite mature. Our scientific knowledge will always be seen as being in it's infancy as each new discovery, by its very nature, opens the door to many more unanswered questions.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Science as a vice [Re: MAIA]
    #3398551 - 11/23/04 01:25 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

The fact that Tesla theories where somehow "forgotten"
*Checks out house and discovers that it is running on AC. Then checks out electric motor in refrigerator.* Yup! Totally forgotten.  :rolleyes:

makes me think about how far things like free energy or alternative energy sources are right now.
Clarify. Does not make grammatical sense.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Science as a vice [Re: MAIA]
    #3398744 - 11/23/04 02:02 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

"Einstein himself said that science can be politically motivated to suit personal views, interests or needs."

Good point. As an example, Edison and Westinghouse regarding the use of DC power vs. AC power. Edison had financial interests in touting DC power and diligently fought against AC power on the basis of how "dangerous" it was. At one point, Edison gathered a group of reporters and interested parties and ran AC power through a dog up on the stage to show that it was dangerous to the dog.

A modern day example is stem cell research. Many people are opposed to embryonic stem cell research on a moral basis. It has become a political issue.


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Anxiety is what you make it.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Science as a vice [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #3398857 - 11/23/04 02:26 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Because so many of the tools used in modern science are far beyond the monetary reach of most people, we are forced to do a LOT of science under the threat of canceled funding (and thus canceled research). The pressure turns away from pure knowledge and towards the act of invention itself. Why work on anything if it isn't profitable?

The scientists and the inventors used to be two different groups. Usually the inventors would create something new, first, and then the scientists would explain the how and why of its workings. First the tide was turned, so that scientists were discovering new things for which there was no "use" for, then later the inventors would use this knowledge to create things. Now we have combined the two into a mesh-work of pure theory and profitable applications. In some fields most of the ground-breaking research is being done privately these days, for pure profit reasons. This does push towards advancement but in specific and often predetermined directions, taking away most of the "chance" discoveries that can so often change the world. If Flemming lived today, doing research for a private company, he probably wouldn't have spent the time to find out why the penicillin killed bacteria. If he is paid only to research the bacteria, he can't spend time on the fungus. So discoveries are probably made, but either kept quiet or forgotten because they weren't what the chequebooks wanted. What does make it out is over-priced, hyped up, and sometimes not the safest ideas.

Don't let the drug companies fool you...they don't really "care" about you or your life.

Science has done a wonderful job at explaining most of the familiar world around us. Perhaps too good, in a way, as it has pushed the research to the unfamiliar. The measuring tools cost thousands to billions of dollars, cutting off most people from the actual research. I wish I could afford a powerful particle accelerator...but I'd have to settle for a low-power basement hack :smirk:

(/rant)


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Offlinedeff
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Re: Science as a vice [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #3398867 - 11/23/04 02:28 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Before I post my views on this, I just want to spout a little background information so as to prevent some false bias to be assumed on me. My mind is very 'scientific' - as in, I hold a very high level of scrutiny to my own ideas and beliefs. What is commonly considered science, or 'main-stream' science, is also something that I appreciate very much. I feel it does an amazing job at describing our OBSERVATIONS of the "physical" and consensual 'reality'. I keep myself educated in physics and chemistry, and will soon be starting a nanotechnology program.

That said, I also am spiritually minded, as in I have a deep yearning for truth - and not just consensual "truth" - but beyond physical altogether, into the mysterty of self existence, or the 'spirit'. I hold all of these beliefs and 'theories' to the same level of scrutiny associated with mainstream science, as this is not just a fun 'game' for me, but something that I yearn to improve on, something that I strive towards self integrity of my own thoughts.

Ok, so that's out of the way. I am neither hardcore "for" or "against" science. Like trendal said, it is an evolving process of describing our consensual observations. It is amazing what it has lead to, and what it will even further lead to. Clearly, there is consensual human "truth" in science, in that an observation person A makes can allow person B to design a certain technology, that persons C D and E can all enjoy. However, science is all too often mistaken for an 'end', or an all inclusive forumla of existence.

Ask an animal if a CD player is the same thing to it as it is to a human. Or better yet, for communication purposes, ask a mentally handicapped person incapable of 'understanding' or using the technology. Suddenly, while the object may remain the same, the scientific concept behind it is different. Now, please do not say that we non-handicapped humans are superior and 'correct' while others are 'deluded' and 'wrong'. Experience is experience, plain and simply.

Science only ventures and explains the overlapping qualities of our individualized experiences. And it does an amazing job at this. The technology and processes we have today, such as me hitting polymer keys to convey this 'message' through spacetime - all through electron movement, is mind blowing. However, there is so much that science cannot explain, things that are often passed off as "imaginary" or "unreal" (how pretentious of views...) by some scientifcally minded people. There is so much uniqueness and individual aspects of our realities that will never manifest themselves consensually. We have been molded to try and comply to "consensual truth" through our use of common language, common "logic", the scientific model, ect. We have as a species categorized some of our experience as "real" and some as "not real". This is ridiculous. If it is experienced, it is REAL.

And so, things like OOBEs, dreams, meditation experiences, non-verbal thoughts, certain energy senses, manipulations, BEINGnesses are all unexpressable through science as they are not consensual. We try to make up for this, try to synchronize our realities, in so many ways. We make up the concept of "emotions" and "feelings", when an actual moment of BEINGness is unique unto itself, there are no categories of experience, there just IS.

To avoid rambling too long, I decided to draw a diagram. The circles represent an individual's "reality" or atleast what they perceieve their reality to be. Really, each is infinite within itself, limited only by the conception of their own limitations, but that's another issue. Where all four overlap indicates what consensual "objective" (i laugh at this notion :smile:) science can "prove". The areas where two or three overlap indicate "shared phenomenon" - as in experiences similar to certain realities but not ALL. These can included a ton of things, such as OBEs, religious experiences, whatever. Note the circle at the bottom corner. It could be someone with shizophrenia or completely detached from "common reality". What they experience IS REAL too, just different, and passed off by consensual science as "delusions".



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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Science as a vice [Re: trendal]
    #3398999 - 11/23/04 02:49 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

I say, instead of wasting billions of dollars to incarcerate innocent people, and building weapons of war with which to kill people, and poisoning ourselves with cancerous chemicals and radiation.. we spend that money and research thinking of new ways to improve the life of everyone alive and not just a lucky few, everyone should be given equal rights and education, and instead of killing each other and focusing on death and taxes we start loving each other while celebrating life and diversity eh?

Basically I think that once technology reaches a certain point there has to be a spiritual understanding of its implications.. or else. stem cell research, nuclear weapons, cloning.. these are some of the things that demand a spiritual acknowledgement. Technology will only take a civilization so far, if their technology gets too far ahead of their spirituality it can be disasterous, taking for example Mars, what was once Maldek or Marduk, Atlantis..

How about amazing technology that cleans the air and oceans and rivers, how about freaking nuclear neutralizers. How about some technology that diagnoses the human energy system, and while we are at it, perpetual energy machines, activated merkabas, and food for all. Why don't we spend billions of dollars and research on things that makes everyone happy. Why, because it's controlled, for the elite few. that's why. There's much more of us than there is of them.


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: Science as a vice [Re: Shroomism]
    #3399378 - 11/23/04 04:15 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

heh, the human race on earth itself is STILL in its infancy.

science relies on human thought and obviously humans aren't perfect.

when I studied physics for a couple of years in college, the first thing that our professor told us what that everything we would be speaking of is really a bunch of concepts and are subject to change.

scientist already recognize the fact that the system itself isn't perfect, and that there isn't one standard. what you are saying shroomism is what MANY scientists already know.

here's the idea....

the label of "out of the boxers" that you have applied to yourself have the knack of saying "what is" when how do you really know? not only that, but you say things in which you have found no evidence over. I'm all for new ideas and new modes of thought, but after a while, if there isn't any primary evidence, then why mention it?

how can you say "I know what is" when most of us don't have a clue?

note that I didn't say that in this thread the outside the boxers have made claims, but outside this thread they have.

if there is nothing suggesting a certain idea, then how were these ideas brought about?

these are the type of question a critical thinker would ask. this is not to say this is totally how I personally think, but I would probably ask you the same question


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Science as a vice [Re: Source]
    #3399750 - 11/23/04 05:44 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

I don't think that science and spirituality need to fight, unless one begins to encroach into the realm of the other.

That's exactly what's happening here when Shroomism insists that the Photon Belt, described by him as:

Quote:

a spiral of multidimensional light that starts in Alcyone in the Pleiades and ends at our Sun. in other words, the photon 'belt' is an immense region of space which is radiating intense electromagnetic radiation throughout the visible spectrum and beyond,




will, in the year 2012, cause:

Quote:

A change in the frequency of which sub-atomic particles vibrate. Our current frequency is 9,000-12,000 times per second, it will jump to 12,000 to 15,000.




He then proceeds to provide links to web sites with maps of the colonies living inside the hollow Earth as supporting evidence for his claims. This is superstition encroaching in the realm of science.

As long as he continues to call this science, and continues to refuse to provide supporting evidence published in a peer-reviewed journal, I will continue to challenge him in the grand tradition of good science.

If you want to play the game called science, I'm going to make sure you abide by the rules.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Science as a vice [Re: deff]
    #3399805 - 11/23/04 05:59 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

a little background information so as to prevent some false bias to be assumed on me

I hold a very high level of scrutiny to my own ideas and beliefs.

deff, give me a break, 'high level of scrutiny'!

Aren't you the one who claims telekinetic powers by 'demonstrating' them to yourself using a finicky electronic scale (with old batteries!) that you yourself said was acting up? Want me to dig up a link to the thread?

Yet you steadfastly refuse every opportunity to get rich by demonstrating your powers?

Sheesh! What's next?

[/looks for a shovel]


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Edited by Diploid (11/26/04 12:00 AM)


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Offlinedeff
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Re: Science as a vice [Re: Diploid]
    #3400429 - 11/23/04 08:18 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Heh, nope :smile:

That was somebody else

I claim only a pinwheel, some lids, and flames - all of which I proved to myself under 'scrutiny' :smile:


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Science as a vice [Re: Shroomism]
    #3400578 - 11/23/04 08:54 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

As has already been pointed out, science is not static. It is not dogma. It is a process by which we learn more about our universe. The fact that previous ideas about the universe have been proven wrong is testament not to the weakness, but rather the strength of science. It is flexible--able to adapt as new information comes in. There are paradigm shifts in science, in which much of what we previously assumed to be true is proven to be either false or incomplete. Of course this can be frustrating, but the way I see it, it's very much preferable to dogmas which resist new information, often outright denying it(as seen with Creationism). Much of what we think we know today will likely be proven wrong or incomplete someday, but that's ok. That's progress.

Having said that, science will not bring you enlightenment. It will not bring you happiness. It will not give you a purpose in life. That is all up to you.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleJellric
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Re: Science as a vice [Re: kaiowas]
    #3401050 - 11/23/04 10:18 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

I agree with some of what Shroomism said. Never forget that scientists are human beings. They pretend to be objective, unbiased observers, but all too often they engage in many of the same turf battles and pissing matches that religious people engage in with other religious people.

When a new scientific paradigm starts gaining strength, old line eggheads will use ridicule, play statistical games, and generally behave like school children and asses. It often takes a generation for a new scientific discovery to gain a concensus. (That is the time needed for the dinosaurs to die out).

I would like to see humanity take our feet off the brakes and break loose to see what we can really do in both the scientific and religious realms. But the forces of progress always face an upwards climb against the forces of repression and entrenchment. Aren't you tired of hearing that a scientific advance is 10 years away and it ends up being 30 or more? They always underestimate the time it takes!

Dammit where are the flying cars we were promised?!?!


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I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Science as a vice [Re: Swami]
    #3408114 - 11/25/04 12:57 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
The fact that Tesla theories where somehow "forgotten"
*Checks out house and discovers that it is running on AC. Then checks out electric motor in refrigerator.* Yup! Totally forgotten.  :rolleyes:




Oh and radio, fluorescent light, AC induction motors, Tesla coil. But anyway, you're right, i'll rephrase it to "The fact that some Tesla theories where somehow "forgotten"". Better now :wink: ?

Quote:

makes me think about how far things like free energy or alternative energy sources are right now.
Clarify. Does not make grammatical sense.




If free energy - Tesla was the first one to come up with such theory - is attainable then you have a new and alternative energy source.
Something for you to read. This is related to the "forgotten" "Dynamic theory of gravity".

From http://www.iridis.com/glivar/Dynamic_theory_of_gravity

Quote:


....
Records seized
It is not clear if the full theory is recorded in any of Tesla's papers, as many of his effects were seized by the United States Federal Government immediately following his death in 1943 and declared Most Secret to prevent information about the theories and inventions Tesla was working on (some of them very dramatic, although apparently impractical, including a 'ray gun' intended to shoot down aircraft [referred to as teleforce]) falling into the hands of the axis powers. No papers relating to the theory of dynamic gravity are among the materials released under FOIA; some point out that Tesla generally did not write much down, and may have kept his work on gravity entirely in memory; others suggest that he did elaborate the theory in writing but that the materials have been kept classified.

Impact afterwards
At the time of his death Tesla was considered a bizarre crackpot by many because of his eccentric behaviour. Tesla's reputation as a "mad scientist" in later life means much of his later work was discredited or at least disregarded and ignored by the scientific establishment at the time. His controversial reputation was also exploited by the popular press and only served to enhance it. His "mad scientist" reputation and both the secrecy and the mysterious circumstances surrounding his death have allowed conspiracy theorists to make additional propositions to the theory than Tesla revealed initially.
.....




Go to link for full text.

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Science as a vice [Re: Jellric]
    #3408139 - 11/25/04 01:13 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)


I agree with some of what Shroomism said. Never forget that scientists are human beings. They pretend to be objective, unbiased observers, but all too often they engage in many of the same turf battles and pissing matches that religious people engage in with other religious people.


True, to some extent, but this is not a flaw in science. This is a flaw in human nature, causing people to not practice real science. The real problem in that case, is the fact that science is NOT being used.

However, I think this IS actually happening less and less. As the idea that we need to always be ready to question what we think is true, and always need to be ready to change our minds becomes a more common meme in society, new scientists are psychologically more prepared for this kind of thinking.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibleJellric
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Re: Science as a vice [Re: Phluck]
    #3408148 - 11/25/04 01:19 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Agreed. That is why I was careful to say the "scientists" were at fault, not science.

The same can be said for spirituality incidently. The fault is not in the spirit, but in those who try to misuse it or create trouble through misunderstanding it.


--------------------
I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Science as a vice [Re: Shroomism]
    #3408149 - 11/25/04 01:19 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

How about some technology that diagnoses the human energy system, and while we are at it, perpetual energy machines, activated merkabas, and food for all.

Well, first of all, people have been working for ages on trying to invent a perpetual motion machine, with no success. Mainly because it's impossible with conventional physics. Maybe in the future we'll be able to pull energy from other dimensions through wacky quantum mechanics, but we aren't there yet.

Assuming that the "human energy system", or "merkabas" even exist is presumptuous, as there's no actual evidence to support these things.

And finally, things like genetically modified foods, and biotechnology are actually being used by many scientists to discover ways of producing huge amounts of food with less effort. Of course lots of people are biased, and assume that anything too sciency must be evil, so there are all kinds of claims that these foods are harmful, even though there's not a whole lot of evidence to back that up. I'm sure that the people who died of starvation in Somalia (I think, could have been a different african country) because Greenpeace managed to successfully lobby to have a huge donation of GM foods blocked are glad that these people are working to save them from evil foods.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Science as a vice [Re: Jellric]
    #3408161 - 11/25/04 01:25 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

The same can be said for spirituality incidently. The fault is not in the spirit, but in those who try to misuse it or create trouble through misunderstanding it.

That, of course, depends on what your goals are. Do you want information, or emotional tranquility?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Science as a vice [Re: Phluck]
    #3408184 - 11/25/04 01:32 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Maybe in the future we'll be able to pull energy from other dimensions through wacky quantum mechanics, but we aren't there yet.

Perpetual motion machines are impossible. If some device is ever created to "pull energy from other dimensions", it will not be a perpetual motion machine, it will be an energy transfer/conversion device no different than a hydroelectric dam, solar energy collector, or even a battery which converts chemical energy to electric energy.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Science as a vice [Re: Diploid]
    #3408189 - 11/25/04 01:33 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Yup, you're absolutely right.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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