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InvisibleIcelander
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Science the ultimate tool?
    #4494303 - 08/04/05 11:37 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

So I was thinking about science on the walk this morning.  Science people tend to think spiritual issues are kind of iffy. They can't always be proven or disproven in a scientific manner.  Many live their lives using science to determine what is true and what is false.

So.

I was wondering about this. The goal of science is to answer our questions about life and how things work and what is true or false. (Is this wrong?, I am not an expert here) Some scientists tell us that there is no way to determine the ultimate question as to why everything or anything exists. Now that's the question some of us want to know. So if science can't handle it. Why do they get weirded out by people looking to the spiritual/mystical, to try and explore this. If science is supposed to continually refine our knowledge of everything and answer all of our questions  given time. Then it seems flawed that it cannot aspire to answer every question that can be posed.

Just some musings of mine. I like science and spirituality. I think they are the same in fact. So I don't really have any Axe to grind here. I would just like to know why science doesn't have a clue about the big question. :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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not to answer all questions but to speak consistently. [Re: Icelander]
    #4494333 - 08/04/05 11:48 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

I read this as "silence the ultimate tool", and I was thinking that in a powerful position, silence can be deafening.

But you are decrying science or the scientific method which aims to expand a language that describes the world using repeatable experimentation (testing).

Science is a way of extending this language that few will use. Many will use products and systems resulting from discoveries made or refered to in the language of science. out of the silence, science is deafening.


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Invisiblemoog
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Registered: 02/15/05
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Re: Science the ultimate tool? [Re: Icelander]
    #4494341 - 08/04/05 11:50 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Yeah, I don't understand this. There are some people who trust only the scientific method for gaining truth. But obviously, we can't learn everything yet with science. But some people, once they encounter something that science can't prove or disprove, they just give up. They give up their search for truth instead of using other tools at their disposal.

There are a lot of things that can be concluded through reason and deduction, where science no longer works at an appropriate tool. This is one alternative to the two-party system of science and faith.  :smirk:


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Science the ultimate tool? [Re: Icelander]
    #4494367 - 08/04/05 12:02 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Hmmm... yes, science as a research-tool is the most objective language we have. It finds out, what is true for everyone in quite limited conditions.
So, I think, science could also be used to examine spirituality. I have no problems, if all the spooky stuff will be found in our brains, because there is such a strong connection between inside and outside, what could give us hints for the outside (caused by the inside of a human) perhaps true for a large number of people. Even if it's only true for some people (limited conditions), it would make sense for an open scientific examination.
I also see no opposition between science and spirituality. At the opposite. Each one can learn so much from each other.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
........................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Science the ultimate tool? [Re: Icelander]
    #4494385 - 08/04/05 12:08 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

So if science can't handle it.
This is an incomplete sentence.

Why do they get weirded out...
Science is a methodology which you then refer to as a "they" having a vague and generalized emotional response. Your statements and your question commingles people, actions, reactions and concepts and is unable to be answered unless you clarify.

I like science and spirituality. I think they are the same in fact.
Not even close!


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Science the ultimate tool? [Re: Icelander]
    #4494416 - 08/04/05 12:22 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

The goal of science is to answer our questions about life and how things work and what is true or false.

Essentially, yes.

Some scientists tell us that there is no way to determine the ultimate question as to why everything or anything exists. Now that's the question some of us want to know. So if science can't handle it. Why do they get weirded out by people looking to the spiritual/mystical, to try and explore this. If science is supposed to continually refine our knowledge of everything and answer all of our questions given time. Then it seems flawed that it cannot aspire to answer every question that can be posed.

Science can only realistically answer the questions about things which exist in this Universe. Anything exterior to this Universe could rely on entirely different sets of physical Laws - and we have no way of knowing what those Laws might be, because we cannot conduct any experiments "outside" of this Universe.

Most people would agree that God, or whatever name you wish to apply to the Creator, is something external to this Universe - thus science can make no realistic predictions about such an entity. As the question "why are we here?" necessarily ties in with the idea of a Creator, science is largely at a loss to explain the "big reason" why we are here.

Most scientists don't get "weirded out" by people looking for spiritual explanations to the Creator, or the big question of why we are here. However people who are trying to find a spiritual explanation quite often will extend their ideas into the realms of this Universe. They may use their spiritual ideas to try and describe how humans came to exist on Earth, for example. Yet this is something that science can explain, and something which science already has explained to a remarkable degree. Now we are no longer talking about questions that science can't answer...but questions that science already has answered.

When those answers conflict with the ideas proposed by those seeking a spiritual path, then most scientists will disagree and "get weirded out" because they have someone sitting in front of them who is denying the scientific explanation that they (the scientists) already understand quite well.

It may be arrogance...but many scientists can have a hard time understanding why their conclusions are not obvious to non-scientists.

For example it now seems obvious to me that Life started on Earth because it could start on Earth. This stems from my understanding of a variety of scientific theories. Yet I still come accross people to whom this conclusion is not obvious...and often I am left wondering why it isn't obvious to them.


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Science the ultimate tool? [Re: Swami]
    #4494417 - 08/04/05 12:22 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Not even close! 
________________________________________________________

I think everyting comes from spirit and so science is also part of spirit. This pertains to the big question that science doesn't try to answer. Why does everyting exist? Seems like such a simple question. :grin:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Science the ultimate tool? [Re: Swami]
    #4494431 - 08/04/05 12:29 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

unfortunately - to most people - the ivory towers and societies of scientists are called science, not language of discovery which summarizes methods of experiments; and the ivory towers of churches and the church (sangha - congregations, leaders etc.) are called religion, not the quest "to re-connect" (re-ligare).

icelander is right that these ivory tower societies, real or imaginary are very similar and professionally distant from the ordinary guy, yet both help to distinguish us from monkeys in the trees... also both intents support eachother


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Science the ultimate tool? [Re: Icelander]
    #4494434 - 08/04/05 12:30 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

I think everyting comes from spirit and so science is also part of spirit.

Everything comes from atoms; therefore a car is identical to a star.  :rolleyes:

Thought you didn't smoke anymore...  :stoned:


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Science the ultimate tool? [Re: Icelander]
    #4494437 - 08/04/05 12:31 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Why does everyting exist?



eat your potatoes and i'll tell you while we go for ice cream.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Science the ultimate tool? [Re: trendal]
    #4494447 - 08/04/05 12:33 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

For example it now seems obvious to me that Life started on Earth because it could start on Earth.
_____________________________________________________

I agree! But it doesn't do much to answer my question why does "could " exist. I guess my point is that science is nothing more than a part of a picture that is bigger than it can frame. So it is not useful as a tool for all of your experience and questions about life. If you stick to science to answer all your questions than all you have done is distorted it into a religion.I Believe ( without scientific proof). That we are spiritual beings having a material experience. And that the spirit is the creative force behind all phenomena. So science is an aspect of spirit or Tao ( my favorite term).


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Science the ultimate tool? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4494458 - 08/04/05 12:37 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

also both intents support eachother

Whatever THAT means. Science attempts to lay a testable groundwork for an idea, whereas religion stems from adopting the teachings of an alleged wise man without question.

There is NO mutual support.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Science the ultimate tool? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4494468 - 08/04/05 12:40 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Why does everyting exist? 



eat your potatoes and i'll tell you while we go for ice cream.




Potatoes may be a causitive factor in type 2 diabetes. Ice cream isn't quite as bad. :grin:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Science the ultimate tool? [Re: Swami]
    #4494490 - 08/04/05 12:46 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
I think everyting comes from spirit and so science is also part of spirit.

Everything comes from atoms; therefore a car is identical to a star.  :rolleyes:






Yes, ultimately they are IMO. And the point to saying that, is to realize that everything is a manifestation of the one, Tao or Spirit. Not Religion Swami. :thumbdown: You need to quit equating spirit with religion. :grin: :heart:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Science the ultimate tool? [Re: Icelander]
    #4494502 - 08/04/05 12:49 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

I guess my point is that science is nothing more than a part of a picture that is bigger than it can frame.

All systems are like this, at least in this Universe. See "Godel's Incompleteness Theory" at Wikipedia for more info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del's_incompleteness_theorem

So it is not useful as a tool for all of your experience and questions about life.

Science is not a tool for "all of your experience and questions about life". Science is a method by which we can explain (and then reproduce) the various phenomena existing within this universe. Science can, and basically has, already explained why humans are here. Science cannot explain why the Universe first came into being, because such an explanation would require information from outside this Universe.

It's like trying to use Economics to explain where petroleum comes from. Economics can explain everything right up to the human discovery of the oil in the ground...but it cannot explain why the oil is there in the first place. That doesn't take anything away from the theory of economics...it just means you can't use economics to explain non-economic phenomena :wink:


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Science the ultimate tool? [Re: Icelander]
    #4494503 - 08/04/05 12:49 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

I guess my point is ...
You have to guess about what your own point is? Where does that leave the rest of us readers attempting to join in the discussion?

...that science is nothing more than a part of a picture that is bigger than it can frame.
It doesn't attempt to answer questions outside of the frame.

So it is not useful as a tool for all of your experience and questions about life.
So? A ruler is not good for weighing objects. Of course, no other tool is useful for answering all of your questions either. Again, what is your point?

If you stick to science to answer all your questions than all you have done is distorted it into a religion.
*sigh* A person misusing a tool does not alter the usefulness of the tool in any manner. Science as a method cannot be distorted.

I Believe ( without scientific proof). That we are spiritual beings having a material experience.
I have asked this question at least a thousand times on this board with NOT ONE SINGLE DIRECT CLEAR answer. Maybe you could be the first. What do you BASE this upon?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Science the ultimate tool? [Re: Swami]
    #4494521 - 08/04/05 12:56 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Everything is a guess. Because we don't know the answer to the big question. :grin:


My point exactly.

My point is that it is not useful for discussing everything.

I never said science wasn't useful?

I base it upon my best guess, which is based on the feeling I have about life. I guess. :grin:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Science the ultimate tool? [Re: Icelander]
    #4494526 - 08/04/05 12:57 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Yes, ultimately they are IMO.
Ultimately? What does this vague form of expansionism mean? Without PRECISE terms, no discussion is possible. (Read my threads on shifting meanings and redefining on-the-fly.)

Let us try the "Icelander Everthing is the Same" experiment, shall we? For the next two weeks, eat nothing but dirt and then come back and tell us that it is the same as eating an apple a day. If you cannot do this, then stop the BS word games if you are serious about a "real" discussion and are not just wanking us off.

You need to quit equating spirit with religion.
So EVERYTHING is ultimately identical (your statement), but now you seemingly contradict yourself. Very hard to follow you, elder brother.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleLe_Canard
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Re: Science the ultimate tool? [Re: Icelander]
    #4494530 - 08/04/05 12:59 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Yeah, we need to get rid of that nasty 'ol science, and return to the stone ages where we would live all-naturally, with shamans curing terminal diseases by beating a drum and chanting and we could live to the ripe old age of 30 - if we're lucky. After all, it doesn't answer the important questions like who we were in a past life!  :tongue:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Science the ultimate tool? [Re: Le_Canard]
    #4494547 - 08/04/05 01:04 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

You don't read well.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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