Home | Community | Message Board


Magic-Mushrooms-Shop.com
Please support our sponsors.

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Jump to first unread post. Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | Next >  [ show all ]
OfflineAttackgecko
Stranger
Registered: 10/15/03
Posts: 5
Last seen: 13 years, 3 months
Big Questions (comments on free will)
    #2062070 - 11/01/03 02:15 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

OK i'm reposting my comments on free will because the "all the big questions answered" thread is very long and my comments on my orignial post are all the way at the end of the thread because i forgot i had posted it for awhile :wink:  here goes...more on free will...

Anyways i skimmed the responses and i'll make a few comments. First despite the title of my post i dont actually claim to have figured it all out. In actuality these are just my ideas, and i wouldn't even go so far as to say that most of them if any are even beliefs, just ideas, theories. I think this, i think that, i know nothing. Ok moving on...
Looks like the free will stuff was what grabbed the most attention and this is the one thing that i said that i MIGHT go so far as to say i believe it and that it is as much a fact as anything can be, and from many of the posts i read it looks like most people are not thinking deeply enough about WHY they make one choice verses another. So you have two paths, which will you choose? whatever path you want right? and it doesnt matter why you choose it as long as you do get to choose? um...wrong atleast on the why part. Why is all important here. We must ask why this or why that, why did i choose left instead of right? there is always a reason, always a cause and as long as there is a cause then there is no true free will. Having options is unimportant if there is always something that makes you choose one option over another, whatever causes you to make your "choice" is that which is in fact robbing you of your free will. There is always a reason, a cause for you wanting one thing over the other. People say we/they have free will but within the confines of physics, but the kind of free will most people are saying they have is exactly that kind which would have to allow you to defy the laws of physics. There is no in between you either have complete free will or you have none. to say i have limited free will would be a contradiction. How ever varied and subtle the forces are that cause us to make one choice over another, they are still forces, and they still CAUSE you to make one choice over another, and there are causes for those causes and so on. There are causes for every desire even, which in turn cause our choices. Even randomness is a cause. If at a moment in time quantum effects influence the environment (and me or you) enough to CAUSE one choice verses another then even in randomness we are robbed of our free will because of conditions we have no control over. Even if it is the interplay between the causes that caused our desire and quantum randomness then still the sum of these CAUSE us to choose one or the other. Even if we had control over conditions there would always be a cause of some kind or line of causes and effects that would MAKE us exert our "control" over conditions one way over another. Someone said something about always having the option to jump out the window if they wanted to as long as the window was there. But why would you make that choice? because you wanted to right? well what CAUSED you to want to? and what CAUSED that CAUSE that MADE you want to? This is why i said that true free will is the ability to make a choice with out regard to any cause, this would be defying the laws of physics, and actually if you are making choices with out cause you would be making random choices, and randomness is not free will either. There is nothing inbetween complete free will which would indeed allow you to defy the laws of physics(it would have to or else it would be limited free will which is a contradiction) and not having free will at all, because once again if something caused your desire and that desire in turn causes you to make one choice verses another then there in no free will, only will, only what you will do and what you wont, only what is and is not. The only other option is if it is possible to defy the laws of physics simply by believing you can, ala NEO. This to my knowledge has never been done, though even so one could argue that no one that we know of has yet believed enough to do it and that it is still a possibility. Then what CAUSES us not to believe enough?  and if i believe enough what CAUSED me to do so? Even if i manage to believe enough to defy the laws of physics it looks as if i had no choice in the matter, because there is something/s that causes me to do so  So in the end if i some how manage to obtain "free" will it looks as if i had no choice in the matter, or even in how i exercise this free will. Because even if i manage to break free of the they system and can somehow defy the laws of physics now, i'm still subject to my past, and all the causes and effects that led me to become who i am, and that person is in fact destined to do what he is going to do
Ok so thats enough about free will, short of refusing to believe it, i see no logical way around my arguements, trust me i wish i did. The other thing i am going to comment on is conscienceness. I am retracting my statement that it is a form of energy, the fact is i dont know what it is, but if everything is energy, then even the effects energy have on the rest of energy would have to be energy wouldn't they? so i'm inclined to still think that it is probably some strange form of energy, like kinetic energy which is an effect generated by other forms of energy,(even matter is a form of energy). Whats really intresting is to wonder if without the "energy" of conscienceness could the rest of the energy still exist? and quantum physics seems to be going in the direction that NO, it couldn't, that it is conscienceness(the observer) that collapses the wave function causing one set of probabilities to become real verses another. The really big question is...is there some ultimate perciever who keeps things "real" when we arent looking? And would this perciever have to be inside the system, a part of the system, or could it be the system itself? or could it be outside the system, but if so how would it be possible for its perceptions to effect the system? could the collective conscienceness of all sentient beings be the conscienceness of the system, which in turn is the ultimate perciever that keeps things "real" when we arent looking? Ok thats enough for now, i dont want people heads to explode....i wonder why i dont want that? and i wonder what causes the cause that makes me not want that...??????BOOM!!!!!SPLAT!!!!....
Sincerely,
that which is and has no choice but to be.
   


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleZero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland

Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
Loc: Passing Cloud
Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: Attackgecko]
    #2062209 - 11/01/03 03:51 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

welkommen! Ich bin Sean. Du hast viele frage. :wink: 
welcome!!!!!! I am Sean. You have many questions.  :nut:

SEriously though, may i welcome you to the shroomery,  :smile:

Im a floater... yes a floater. I cant help it, i like to dance with the wind. Free Will... Will is not free, hes not a whore either... not always... Hes one of my best friends. People are driven by their wants, there is no doubt about that. It seems ingrained in us to want... to desire. So we are here for a reason, why we have those feelings i dont know.

There is so much yet that we dont understand, Ive tried to stop asking myself questions i cant find answers too, or answers that become too repetitive, and tried to focus on toying with my perception of how i experience things. There is so much you can connect with one another, to be free must you be confined? What if you did not ask Free? or confined? You would not know if you had free will or not, it would not be central to how you "operated", sure its an observation, but does the question pose a serious hendering of our capabilities? After all, how much do we understand of whats going on to change it if we wanted to, we are indeed connected to this physical universe. Keine Ahnung  :laugh:


--------------------
What?


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineLightningfractal
Nutcase

Registered: 06/24/03
Posts: 14,899
Loc: Heaven and Hell
Last seen: 4 years, 17 days
Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: Zero7a1]
    #2062420 - 11/01/03 10:25 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Attempting to define infinity in finite terms? When you can fathom infinity, you should then be able to fathom what free will is. These are concepts which exist at the edge of human understanding, which is finite. People get on here and attempt to be experts on subjects which they cannot comprehend. This is most curious, and suggests that humanity rather than admit that there are things beyond their capacity of understanding, desires to attatch false conclusions to the unknown. Perhaps because humanity feels that he is meant to comprehend everything, and that to fail in that would be disgraceful.

However, I suggest that we are born into the finite. We exist in a finite world, with a finite land area, and a finite lifespan. We have a finite capacity for understanding as well, get over it. Just because you FEEL infinite, does not mean that you will automatically be able to comprehend all things infinite. Imagine that.


--------------------
Hi how's it going, wanna kick Heroin basically painlessly on your own, in your own house, without any government "help" ,or the "help" of a crazy condescending, judgmental medical doctor? Read this:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=42&Number=7342616&page=0&fpart=all



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,849
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 3 months, 1 day
Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2062552 - 11/01/03 01:15 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I just can't wait until we have an infinite understanding... :grin:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblequestioning
shaker
Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 64
Loc: joisey
Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2062645 - 11/01/03 02:25 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

things happen, doesn't matter how. the fact is that they happen and you can take it for what it's worth, or otherwise.
i've never had a bad experience that didn't provide me with something valuabl;e. I've had plenty of horrible things happen to me, involving me, or involving those i love dearly. in the end, a lesson was learned, that couldn't have been learned otherwise, or things have made an unexpected turn for the best. All in all, i'll never know how it happened, i try to focux on the why.

When i'm considering options, i go with my gut, normally the first option i seriously consider. I trust my intuition emensely (sp?) and it's proved trustworthy. When i'm at a total loss, i do nothing until something shows me what to do. i meditate, i shroom, i try and forget it. time after time, the answer reveals itself.


--------------------
important questions sometimes involve a quest to answer.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineHagbardCeline
Student-Teacher-Student-Teacher
Male User Gallery

Registered: 05/10/03
Posts: 9,815
Loc: Overjoyed, at the bottom ...
Last seen: 1 day, 7 hours
Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: Zero7a1]
    #2063908 - 11/02/03 12:15 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Zero7a1 said:
...Free Will... Will is not free,...




It's funny you said that. After I had my ego-loss trip, several weeks later I realized I had made myself a voice memo on my phone. I kept repeating "Free will is not free, free will is not free."

Of course, now I don't know exactly what I meant by that or what my rational was. I still haven't decided how I feel about free will, but I am pretty sure it is an illusion.


--------------------
I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineZenGecko
enthusiast
Registered: 11/02/03
Posts: 285
Last seen: 3 years, 4 months
Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #2064120 - 11/02/03 02:52 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Um thanks for the comments so far, though a couple of them didn't really seem to have much to do with free will. If the claiming to be an expert comment was directed at me, then just for the record i'm not claiming that, i'm simply trying to lay down a logical arguement that shows free will doesn't exist, and i would very much like some one to have a logical counter arguement, because as it is i'm faced with the seemingly unescapable conclusion that i cannot help but do and be whatever i end up doing or being, and currently i'm trying to be ok with that. I want someone to prove me wrong....i just havent had it happen yet. BTW this is Attackgecko i lost my password and forgot which email i registered under
Sincerely,
That which is and has no choice but to be


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleZero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland

Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
Loc: Passing Cloud
Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #2064125 - 11/02/03 02:54 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Free will is not free, free will is not free."





maybe you were realized that you have to work for will power, or at least that having that desire to change things comes at a price, that we have to work towards something we want. and that we cant just simply sit in our brain and wish upon it, and have it appear right before us. I dont know, thats just what i first thought of when you wrote that.


--------------------
What?


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineLightningfractal
Nutcase

Registered: 06/24/03
Posts: 14,899
Loc: Heaven and Hell
Last seen: 4 years, 17 days
Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2064189 - 11/02/03 03:47 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

If the claiming to be an expert comment was directed at me




It wasn't. There have been multiple threads with multiple posters recently on the subject of free will. And so far I have yet to hear anyone explain free will away, or explain it either. As I said, I believe it exists, yet cannot be explained. I am O.K. with this.

Quote:

i'm simply trying to lay down a logical arguement that shows free will doesn't exist, and i would very much like some one to have a logical counter arguement




This is impossible because the presence of life in the universe is illogical, and free will is a part of this life.


--------------------
Hi how's it going, wanna kick Heroin basically painlessly on your own, in your own house, without any government "help" ,or the "help" of a crazy condescending, judgmental medical doctor? Read this:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=42&Number=7342616&page=0&fpart=all



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineLightningfractal
Nutcase

Registered: 06/24/03
Posts: 14,899
Loc: Heaven and Hell
Last seen: 4 years, 17 days
Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2064190 - 11/02/03 03:49 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

"Logic" seems to me to be the most primitive and blind of all thought processes.


--------------------
Hi how's it going, wanna kick Heroin basically painlessly on your own, in your own house, without any government "help" ,or the "help" of a crazy condescending, judgmental medical doctor? Read this:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=42&Number=7342616&page=0&fpart=all



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineZenGecko
enthusiast
Registered: 11/02/03
Posts: 285
Last seen: 3 years, 4 months
Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2064203 - 11/02/03 04:08 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Logic i agree cannot lead to absolute truth, if such a thing exists, and i believe it does, because i believe i've experienced it. but it gets us as close to a truth as we can get without some mystical revelation. My own mystical revelations have led me to i guess "know" that free will doesnt exist. And all the evidence i've seen jives with those experiences. I just refused to believe it till then, and actually as i mentioned i'm still coming to terms with it. If randomness isn't free will, and how could it be because u have no control over randomness, and there is always a cause for every desire and there always is however subtle and unnoticed it may be, then you come to the inescapeable conclusion that free will doesnt exist. If something/things are causing me to choose then my choice is but an effect of those causes. You can refuse to except those premises, and if so then my arguement will mean nothing because i can not argue with blind faith. But if someone is going to say i'm wrong then i would very much like to know how i'm wrong, or else i would very much like them to say, "i disagree with you, but i have no logical reason other then faith for doing so"
Sincerely,
That which is and has no choice but to be


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleMystical_Craven
mentally illpsychonaught

Registered: 06/16/02
Posts: 439
Loc: Earth
Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: Attackgecko]
    #2064483 - 11/02/03 09:48 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

no comments...no constructive critisism...just a little advise:

making massive paragraphs discourage the lazy

breaking up large amounts of information into easily readable sections = k3y


--------------------


"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go..." T.S. Eliot


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineLightningfractal
Nutcase

Registered: 06/24/03
Posts: 14,899
Loc: Heaven and Hell
Last seen: 4 years, 17 days
Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: Mystical_Craven]
    #2064605 - 11/02/03 11:45 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Perhaps it was his plan all along to discorage the lazy. :wink:


--------------------
Hi how's it going, wanna kick Heroin basically painlessly on your own, in your own house, without any government "help" ,or the "help" of a crazy condescending, judgmental medical doctor? Read this:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=42&Number=7342616&page=0&fpart=all



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleMystical_Craven
mentally illpsychonaught

Registered: 06/16/02
Posts: 439
Loc: Earth
Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2064627 - 11/02/03 12:01 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

perhaps...

or maybe he was just too lazy himself to throw in an extre 'enter' from time to time  :wink: 


--------------------


"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go..." T.S. Eliot


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 2 years, 1 month
Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2066425 - 11/02/03 11:43 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Lightningfractal writes:

And so far I have yet to hear anyone explain free will away, or explain it either. As I said, I believe it exists, yet cannot be explained. I am O.K. with this.

Free will is observable. It exists. The problem most have with it is that according to what we know of the physical properties of the basic building blocks of the observable universe, there seems to be a choice only between random action (in the sense of non-predictable, purposeless action) and predetermined action. Free will is neither random nor predetermined. How to resolve this apparent contradiction?

Maybe consciousness (that attribute of entities which initiates purposeful action) acts in this physical universe, yet is not of (or at least is not entirely of) this universe.

pinky


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineZenGecko
enthusiast
Registered: 11/02/03
Posts: 285
Last seen: 3 years, 4 months
Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: Phred]
    #2069033 - 11/04/03 12:17 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

i have never observed free will, i've only observed causes and the effects of causes, and/or randomness. As for consciencenss, it may be entangled with the quantum world but it arises from the sum of its parts, which are in the physical world, and even if it is greater then the sum of its parts, whether or not its entangled with the quantum world, and whether or not it is not entirely of this universe atleast some of its parts are and there for it is still subject to causality atleast partially, but even partially is enough to kill free will, be cause you cant be influenced at all and still be completely free, and to say something has limited freedom, though a common term is in fact a contridiction. Reasons negate your freewill, and randomness is not free will, because you cant control what is random, its that simple and there is no way around it.
Sincerely,
That which is and has no choice to be
P.S. I'm not writting an academic paper, so i'm not all that focused on gramatical rules and such, but i'm also not here to pander to the lazy, i'm writing this to express myself and to share my ideas and opinions with those who are sincerely intrested in the exploration of such topics. The lazy are welcome to comment, but ofcourse it will be at an increased risk of making themselves look stupid, but thats their choice, not mine, and besides none of us can help but do what we are going to do.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 2 years, 1 month
Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2070395 - 11/04/03 07:13 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

ZenGecko writes:

i have never observed free will...

Yeah, you have. You read my post, and my post is proof of my free will. I didn't have to respond to it (predetermination), I chose to respond to it. And I didn't type random strings of characters (randomness), I chose the words after some reflection.

...i've only observed causes and the effects of causes, and/or randomness.

My point exactly. You observed my post (the effect), which was caused by my free will.

pinky


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblemuhurgle
Turtles all theway down

Registered: 10/29/03
Posts: 299
Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: Phred]
    #2073201 - 11/05/03 02:39 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

That you think you have free will isn't proof that there is free will, now is it? That's kind of the whole basis of the discussion.


--------------------
"To make this mundane world sublime
Take half a gram of phanerothyme."

Aldous Huxley


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 2 years, 1 month
Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: muhurgle]
    #2073845 - 11/05/03 05:59 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

muhurgle writes:

That you think you have free will isn't proof that there is free will, now is it?

Not only do I think it, I know it and can demonstrate it. Not only do I know I have free will, but you yourself know you have free will. You exercise it every day. You exercised it by choosing to reply to my post rather than ignoring it; by replying in grammatically correct English rather than Swahili or random gibberish; by selecting the thrust of your argument rather than going off on a tangent.

Free will exists, that's not open to debate. What is open to debate is the exact mechanism by which it is exercised.

pinky



--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblemuhurgle
Turtles all theway down

Registered: 10/29/03
Posts: 299
Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: Phred]
    #2074104 - 11/05/03 07:10 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Ok, so what you're saying is that since we experience free will, there is free will, period?

Seems to me you're just redefining the meaning of "free will" to be the experience of free will. That still doesn't answer the question of determinance. Given the exact same universe the moment before I answered your post, would it be impossible to predict what I'm going to do (ie. answer it or not) since I have free will?

What I'm actually going to do is another thing, it would probably be the same. I would still answer the post. The interesting part is wether it would be possible to predict this with certainty or not. My understanding of free will is; given a bystander outside our universe with complete understanding of the rules that govern it, could he give a definite yes or no to that question? If he could, then there is no free will.

If I understand you correctly, you say that since we can't predict it, or we can't see our universe from the outside, there is free will, since it's all we can experience.

In my opinion, wether such a bystander exists or could exists or whatever, is irrelevant.


--------------------
"To make this mundane world sublime
Take half a gram of phanerothyme."

Aldous Huxley


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Jump to top. Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | Next >  [ show all ]

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;)
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 all )
ZenGecko 10,666 148 04/23/07 12:22 AM
by PhanTomCat
* The concept of randomness Rhizoid 1,250 14 07/11/03 09:01 PM
by Strumpling
* the nature of randomness
( 1 2 all )
relativexistance 1,780 38 11/18/04 09:07 PM
by entiformatie
* can there be free will in a material world?
( 1 2 all )
Malachi 1,671 25 11/25/03 03:33 AM
by ZenGecko
* Free Will has a Magical Definition. David_Scape 880 18 09/15/03 09:08 PM
by Anonymous
* Influencing random numbers... Jared 1,456 18 03/22/03 06:18 AM
by xganon
* Just Some Questions
( 1 2 all )
Sclorch 1,758 37 05/02/04 01:58 PM
by phynai
* Can anyone here conceieve of an event that MUST be random?
( 1 2 3 all )
xFrockx 2,214 59 11/06/08 05:30 PM
by supernovasky

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, CosmicJoke, Diploid, DividedQuantum
3,007 topic views. 1 members, 6 guests and 4 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Toggle Favorite | Print Topic | Stats ]
Search this thread:
Vaposhop
Please support our sponsors.

Copyright 1997-2017 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.092 seconds spending 0.002 seconds on 16 queries.