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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: ]
    #2026567 - 10/20/03 08:14 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

I have placed before myself a red pill and a blue pill. I have chosen to eat one of them. I can choose to eat either pill. (sound familiar?) I know in my heart that I can choose freely to eat either one. Once I have chosen one that does not mean that I was pre-destined to choose that one, because I easily could have chosen the other one.


--------------------
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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: silversoul7]
    #2026665 - 10/20/03 09:40 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

"Why try to convince us there's no free will? If there's no such thing, then you'll never convince anyone, because we're predestined to either believe in it or not believe in it."

Who says he wasn't predestined to convince you otherwise? :wink:

lol I'm not going to try any convincing, but I just had to share that thought.


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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InvisibleSuperD
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Strumpling]
    #2026830 - 10/20/03 10:25 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)


> "every condition and event in the universe is completely determined by previous conditions. it's cause and effect. this is how energy\matter behaves. it is not random, it is not chaotic. it is orderly and follows certain rules. in this way, it is essentially predetermined.

why should the chemical and electrical events inside of our skulls be any exception?"


Couldn't have said it any better.


--------------------
:super:D
Manoa said:
I need to stop spending all my money on plants and take up a cheaper hobby, like heroin. :lol:

Looking for Rauhocereus riosaniensis seeds or live specimen(s), :pm: me if you have any for trade


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OfflineDeiymiyan
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2026861 - 10/20/03 10:37 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

"But life is NOT a movie, and cannot BE rewound, and if there is no free-will, and no matter what happens, "it was because of the script" then who exactly is running the show? Who wrote the script? "
-----------------------


That is a very legit set of questions.

Personally, it interests me more to ask rather: "Why was the script written in the manner that it has come to unfold?"






Consider, for a moment - and this is going to ba a tangent to the discussion ...  If everything we see is a reflection of something larger that is out there, then I would like to include this as well:

Take the following and then try to imagine the concept...

The interaction of a lightwave upon a reflective surface.  When a diagram is drawn, in physics, to show the interaction, we notice a few things like angle [ i ] equals angle [ r ] and that the intensity does not decrease when the reflective surface is real good.  Now, add another reflective surface and begin to bounce the rays.  In order to draw it, you use imaginary rays, or virtual rays to complete the diagram.

But you can't see the virtual, or imaginary rays.  You only see the result in reality.



So...  Getting back to "reality as being a reflection" analogy.  So, if what you see is really a reflection, it must have a virtual or imaginary counter, or compliment. 


Now..  You can see yourself.    Well,  Duh !!!!..  How obvious was that for me to say...  But then, continuing with the analogy, you have a virtual or imaginary compliment that associates with you as well.

 

We notice how we make friends with one another..  Why, even on these Boards, we are all friends partaking in discussion.


Now, if interaction occurs in reality, we have the knowlegde that it happens [observation yields in the knowledge], and imagination is more important than knowledge [Einstein]..  Then imaginary is a greater aspect of the reality..  An extension. 


I have not said anything new. 


So if it is possible to interact among ourselves, and we are connected to the imaginary...  As real friends, it makes sense that the compliment is then: 




IMAGINARY FRIENDS.



Where, therefore,  imaginary friends... are real.

:eyemouth:


[ //  Can-O-Laughs cracked open... ]    :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:



[ //  Followed by Dead Silence... ]  :lipsrsealed: :lipsrsealed: :lipsrsealed: :lipsrsealed: :lipsrsealed: :lipsrsealed: :lipsrsealed: :lipsrsealed: :lipsrsealed: :lipsrsealed: :lipsrsealed: :lipsrsealed: :lipsrsealed: :lipsrsealed: :lipsrsealed: :lipsrsealed: :lipsrsealed: :lipsrsealed: :lipsrsealed: :lipsrsealed: :lipsrsealed: :lipsrsealed: :lipsrsealed: :lipsrsealed: :lipsrsealed: :lipsrsealed: :lipsrsealed:


:oogle:




:noway: :noway: :noway: :noway: :noway: :noway:





..."Wait wait wait!!!!  De-Nile ain't just a river in Egypt, you know !!!"...


:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:



Just think about it for a second now... or a while longer..  If we can interact like this, then it stands to reason, going along with the analogy, that imaginary friends interact as well.




So.. Now....    Going back to the voices in your head...







And also...  Who are the ones who interact with imaginary friends most often...?


  Yes  !



...  Children  ...


:shocked:

:grin:

:laugh:





 


--------------------


Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..



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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2027160 - 10/21/03 12:25 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

"I have placed before myself a red pill and a blue pill. I have chosen to eat one of them. I can choose to eat either pill. (sound familiar?) I know in my heart that I can choose freely to eat either one. Once I have chosen one that does not mean that I was pre-destined to choose that one, because I easily could have chosen the other one. "

You could have, but you didn't. If a factor had been changed, you could have chosen the other pill, either that or your choice is random... if such a thing even exists.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: ]
    #2027177 - 10/21/03 12:30 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Annom said:
Those things are random because we don't know what causes them, but I don't think true randomness exists. Even your "random" computer crash is caused by something(could even be something very small, quantum mechanics??). But I'm not sure about randomness....




Indeed. Computers are not random at all, but they are such a complex system with so many functions happening at once, that bugs can seem random and mysterious, much like our minds and actions.

Quote:

mushmaster said:
every condition and event in the universe is completely determined by previous conditions. it's cause and effect. this is how energy\matter behaves. it is not random, it is not chaotic. it is orderly and follows certain rules. in this way, it is essentially predetermined.

why should the chemical and electrical events inside of our skulls be any exception? 




:thumbup: Well put.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Phluck]
    #2027796 - 10/21/03 04:52 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

this thread has unrolled nicely :smile:


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Phluck]
    #2028028 - 10/21/03 09:32 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

We have an IMAGINATION. This is the source of free will. To imagine is to create imagery and ideas which did not exist prior. Therefore to imagine is to bring into this world something which did not formerly exist. If this is possible, then this argument:

Quote:

every condition and event in the universe is completely determined by previous conditions. it's cause and effect. this is how energy\matter behaves. it is not random, it is not chaotic. it is orderly and follows certain rules. in this way, it is essentially predetermined.

why should the chemical and electrical events inside of our skulls be any exception?





is out the window.

Finally, I might add that THE EXISTANCE OF LIFE ITSELF is perhaps the BEST argument against predestiny. Do you believe for one minute that that the cause and effect of speeding electrons and such has resulted in the totally organized condition of Earth? Plants, animals, trees? Further, the totally mind boggling diversity of animals: four legs, two legs, no legs, brown, orange, speckled, spotted. Plants: poison, intoxicating, delicious, carnivorous. A whole crew of insects, fish, mountains oceans etc.etc..

ALL THIS, because certain molecular particles bounced the right way? That's a whole lot of fucking bouncing correctly. Instead, it is because the thing we call life exists above cause and effect. Life is alive. Life changes things. Life makes happen that which would not have happened before. Life has....well life has life.


--------------------
Hi how's it going, wanna kick Heroin basically painlessly on your own, in your own house, without any government "help" ,or the "help" of a crazy condescending, judgmental medical doctor? Read this:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=42&Number=7342616&page=0&fpart=all



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OfflineAnnomM
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2028078 - 10/21/03 09:57 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

> We have an IMAGINATION. This is the source of free will. To imagine is to create imagery and ideas which did not exist prior. Therefore to imagine is to bring into this world something which did not formerly exist. If this is possible, then this argument: "...." is out the window.

The sun converts hydrogen into helium. The sun can bring something into its environment which did not formerly exist. After the big bang the same thing happened, does this mean that the universe had a free will, billion years ago?

No, it's just a physical reaction; nuclear fusion. Same thing(not nuclear fusion, but a physical reaction) occurs in your brain when you imagine a not existing thing.

> Finally, I might add that THE EXISTANCE OF LIFE ITSELF is perhaps the BEST argument against predestiny. Do you believe for one minute that that the cause and effect of speeding electrons and such has resulted in the totally organized condition of Earth? Plants, animals, trees? Further, the totally mind boggling diversity of animals: four legs, two legs, no legs, brown, orange, speckled, spotted. Plants: poison, intoxicating, delicious, carnivorous. A whole crew of insects, fish, mountains oceans etc.etc..

Very good point. Amazing isn't it? And I believe in it, for more than one minute. Life is beautiful.....! If you don't believe in this you should believe in a god(but isn't it even more weird that god did all this?). It has nothing to do with free will, because single-celled organisms had no free will and they existed before we could have a free will.


Edited by Annom (10/21/03 09:59 AM)


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Invisiblepoke smot!
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Re: Free will is bullshit. *DELETED* [Re: Annom]
    #2028095 - 10/21/03 10:08 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Post deleted by poke smot!

Reason for deletion: x



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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Annom]
    #2028101 - 10/21/03 10:12 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Agreed. This thread has expanded into many areas other than "free will". However, the subject of "free-will" seems to be a lot more complex to examine than I had originally imagined it would be, calling into the equasion many other questions as well. To fathom the nature of life questions the origin of life.

personally I believe in a higher unfathomable intelligence who hooked up this whole "Earth" thing for all of us. It was this being's free-will that was excersized in creating this world, and it is our free-will which enables us to fuck it up, pollute rivers, mow down forests to make law books which outlaw certain plants etc. etc.


--------------------
Hi how's it going, wanna kick Heroin basically painlessly on your own, in your own house, without any government "help" ,or the "help" of a crazy condescending, judgmental medical doctor? Read this:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=42&Number=7342616&page=0&fpart=all



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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: poke smot!]
    #2028123 - 10/21/03 10:25 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Poke, basically there's one crowd here saying that Joe had to make his decision to react with his fist based on the positions of the atoms and electrons in his brain (theory 1), and there's a crowd here saying that Joe has a gift of free-will to decide what he should do (theory 2).

Interesting to point out that if there exists an omnipotent intelligence, this intelligence would be able to predict the exact course of all future events based on theory 1. Further, if life is a divine test to determine worthiness for paradise or torment, theory 1 would make the entire test un-nescessary, because the omnipotent being would already know the paths that will be chosen by his creations. Therefore theory 2 fits better with the idea of an omnipotent intelligence.

However, one cannot ignore that the idea of the omnipotent intelligence providing us with "revelations" about future events would SEEM to favor theory 1.


--------------------
Hi how's it going, wanna kick Heroin basically painlessly on your own, in your own house, without any government "help" ,or the "help" of a crazy condescending, judgmental medical doctor? Read this:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=42&Number=7342616&page=0&fpart=all



Edited by Lightningfractal (10/21/03 10:27 AM)


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InvisibleZildjian
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2028126 - 10/21/03 10:28 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

I believe in determinism and free-will. I think everything is part of a causal chain of events which continue infinitely into the past and future with no first cause.

I think a free act is any decision made by any sort of mind, so technically your computer has free-will.





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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2028607 - 10/21/03 02:07 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

"Therefore to imagine is to bring into this world something which did not formerly exist."

No it is not, imagination is the combination of chemicals and energy in a way that hadn't existed before. Nothing new has really been created.

"ALL THIS, because certain molecular particles bounced the right way? That's a whole lot of fucking bouncing correctly."

Know what a fractal is?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2028617 - 10/21/03 02:11 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

"Poke, basically there's one crowd here saying that Joe had to make his decision to react with his fist based on the positions of the atoms and electrons in his brain (theory 1), and there's a crowd here saying that Joe has a gift of free-will to decide what he should do (theory 2). "


Joe decided what to do. Joe is the position of the atoms and electrons in his brain.

Joe is a machine.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Phluck]
    #2028657 - 10/21/03 02:23 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Choices are made through and elaborate system in the brain.

VS.

Choices are made.

==========


Joe: Free will is an illusion, choices are made through elaborate systems in the brain.

Bob: No, free will is real, we make our own choices.

Joe: That's what I'm saying, we make our own choices through an elaborate system in our brain.

Bob: No, we make them ourselves.

Joe: You mean they're random?

Bob: No, we've made them based on free will.

Joe: So if they're not random, and they're not based on an elaborate system, what then?

Bob: Free will, obviously. Not everything has to make sense, you know.

Joe: I make my choices by ass pill banana eyeball.

Bob: What?

Joe: Not everything has to make sense, you know.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflineAnnomM
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Phluck]
    #2028705 - 10/21/03 02:34 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Joe: So if they're not random, and they're not based on an elaborate system, what then?

:thumbup:  :laugh:


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Phluck]
    #2028859 - 10/21/03 03:17 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Know what a fractal is?




Main Entry: frac?tal
Pronunciation: 'frak-t&l
Function: noun
Etymology: French fractale, from Latin fractus broken, uneven (past participle of frangere to break) + French -ale -al (noun suffix)
Date: 1975
: any of various extremely irregular curves or shapes for which any suitably chosen part is similar in shape to a given larger or smaller part when magnified or reduced to the same size
- fractal adjective

All I know about "fractal" is that it is a type of LSD (which is why it is in my screenname.), and the definition above. Perhaps you can enlighten me further?

Quote:

Joe: So if they're not random, and they're not based on an elaborate system, what then?





They are based upon the smooth unbroken flow of life, which is undefinable, or perhaps definable as "pure energy in constant motion".


--------------------
Hi how's it going, wanna kick Heroin basically painlessly on your own, in your own house, without any government "help" ,or the "help" of a crazy condescending, judgmental medical doctor? Read this:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=42&Number=7342616&page=0&fpart=all



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OfflineAnnomM
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2028914 - 10/21/03 03:39 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Joe: I make my choices by ass pill banana eyeball.  :wink:


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Offlinehongomon
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Phluck]
    #2028990 - 10/21/03 04:05 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

There are definitely a lot of determinants acting on us. I think I'm a "soft-determinist", meaning I still allow for the possibility of free will.

Assuming a basically deterministic world, consider the difference between adopting these two positions: A) deterministic, or B) free will. How would the determinants change if a person leaned more to A? More to B? How about for a larger group of people?

Even as a soft-determinist, I see value in assuming a high level of free will, even if all it really does is create a better set of determinants.


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