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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: silversoul7]
    #2026232 - 10/20/03 06:30 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Why try to convince us there's no free will? If there's no such thing, then you'll never convince anyone, because we're predestined to either believe in it or not believe in it.






:lol:

Brilliant!

Determinist want control.  That is their motivation.  To reduce the infinite to something mundanely logical.


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'You can go to a hospital
Get yourself cleaned out.'


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Anonymous

Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2026319 - 10/20/03 06:50 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Determinist want control. That is their motivation. To reduce the infinite to something mundanely logical.

through scientific reasoning i've been intrigued by determinism, it has nothing to do with wants. are you afraid of thinking about it? its quite a scary thought actually.

what i find to be a taxing question is.... what if it can be proven, somehow in the future?

IF determinism was proven to be a fact of nature, what would that impact have on humanity as a whole? everything we do comes down to "decision" making, our egos are built off of past "decisions".... this theory has the potential to destroy every ego on earth. YOU are NOT really you at all... you are in the entire sense of the word... nothing ....

its hard for me to comprehend such an event, but it would truly be earth shattering.

so i ask everyone here... if determinism was true...(please don't deny this fact).... what would you do with your life?



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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: ]
    #2026337 - 10/20/03 06:56 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

so i ask everyone here... if determinism was true...(please don't deny this fact).... what would you do with your life?



I would act as if it weren't true, because it wouldn't matter either way. If every decision in my life has already been made, then I'll do the same things either way, since I don't have a choice in the matter.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: silversoul7]
    #2026342 - 10/20/03 06:57 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

testify!
:nut: :nut: :nut:


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Get yourself cleaned out.'


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: silversoul7]
    #2026346 - 10/20/03 06:59 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Free will or not, opinions change all the time. It's not like you're made to believe certain things, we don't have the ability to predict the future, because there is no possible way to determine every variable in the universe.

Motivation and influences are all factors in doing things. Some people might say, "why not stop punishing criminals, if they have no free will?". By the risk of punishment is a factor which reduces the possibility of someone comitting a crime.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Anonymous

Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: silversoul7]
    #2026358 - 10/20/03 07:03 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

I would act as if it weren't true, because it wouldn't matter either way. If every decision in my life has already been made, then I'll do the same things either way, since I don't have a choice in the matter.

what about your daily decisions you make everyday... how would you respond to everything? every moment of your life will be you wrestling with the fact that you are TRYING to make a decision, yet can't. "decisions" make up entirely who we are.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: ]
    #2026366 - 10/20/03 07:06 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

If I have no choice in the matter, then obviously I'm going to make those decisions anyway.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Anonymous

Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: silversoul7]
    #2026375 - 10/20/03 07:09 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

If I have no choice in the matter, then obviously I'm going to make those decisions anyway.

... i'm trying ...

think about who you are right now.
that entire person would be destroyed upon this realization.



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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: silversoul7]
    #2026377 - 10/20/03 07:09 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

"I would act as if it weren't true, because it wouldn't matter either way."

Believing in determinism is a factor that will influence how you act.

Some people seem to think that if they don't have free will, they will act the same way in a situation, DESPITE a difference in factors. If you change any factor, your actions will vary. Every little thing you learn.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Phluck]
    #2026381 - 10/20/03 07:11 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

I'd still like to see someone address this:

Quote:

Phluck said:
The clairify why I say free will makes no sense;

My computer sometimes behaves irrationally. It will crash, windows will pop up for no apparent reason, you know the kind of thing I'm talking about.

How is this different from our own irrational actions? The only other possiblilty I can imagine is that we occasionally do things that are "random".




I have yet to see a decent attempt to define free will.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: ]
    #2026391 - 10/20/03 07:13 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

think about who you are right now.
that entire person would be destroyed upon this realization.



You're assuming that I define myself by my decisions. I don't. I define myself simply by my existence.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Anonymous

Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: silversoul7]
    #2026400 - 10/20/03 07:15 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

you wake up everyday only acknowledging that you have a conscious awareness(no ego) and nothing more?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: ]
    #2026402 - 10/20/03 07:16 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Pretty much.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Anonymous

Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: silversoul7]
    #2026406 - 10/20/03 07:17 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

maybe in your idealism, but i think you are lying :smile:


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: ]
    #2026437 - 10/20/03 07:23 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

> I define myself simply by my existence.

:thumbup: :heart:


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OfflineAnnomM
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Phluck]
    #2026443 - 10/20/03 07:24 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

> so i ask everyone here... if determinism was true...(please don't deny this fact).... what would you do with your life?

I do believe in determinism and I do live like it's true. It is quite a scary thought. I believe that I could have been a radical muslim or terrorist if I grew up in the "correct" environment.

> Determinist want control. That is their motivation. To reduce the infinite to something mundanely logical.

That can be your opinion, but I don't think that has anything to do with determinism. What control do you mean? I don't think determinism does reduce the infinite to something mundanely logical. That is what religions try to do.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Annom]
    #2026464 - 10/20/03 07:28 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

"I do believe in determinism and I do live like it's true. It is quite a scary thought. I believe that I could have been an radical muslim or terrorist if I grew up in the "correct" environment. "

That's actually a pretty good point. We do know for sure that being raised in a certain environment will increase the likelyhood of you adopting those values. If learned factors influence your decisions, how are they free?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflineAnnomM
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Annom]
    #2026502 - 10/20/03 07:48 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

> "My computer sometimes behaves irrationally. It will crash, windows will pop up for no apparent reason, you know the kind of thing I'm talking about.
How is this different from our own irrational actions? The only other possiblilty I can imagine is that we occasionally do things that are "random"."

Those things are random because we don't know what causes them, but I don't think true randomness exists. Even your "random" computer crash is caused by something(could even be something very small, quantum mechanics??). But I'm not sure about randomness....

"I do not see a need to go beyond conventional logic or mathematics. I only see a problem with developing a better theory."


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Anonymous

Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Phluck]
    #2026524 - 10/20/03 07:55 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

every condition and event in the universe is completely determined by previous conditions. it's cause and effect. this is how energy\matter behaves. it is not random, it is not chaotic. it is orderly and follows certain rules. in this way, it is essentially predetermined.

why should the chemical and electrical events inside of our skulls be any exception?


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OfflineAnnomM
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: ]
    #2026556 - 10/20/03 08:10 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

> "every condition and event in the universe is completely determined by previous conditions. it's cause and effect. this is how energy\matter behaves. it is not random, it is not chaotic. it is orderly and follows certain rules. in this way, it is essentially predetermined.

why should the chemical and electrical events inside of our skulls be any exception?"

:thumbup: well spoken! That's exactly what I think.

"The true dynamical randomness is obtained as a natural fundamental property of deterministic quantum systems. It provides quantum chaos passing to the classical dynamical chaos under the ordinary semiclassical transition, which extends the correspondence principle to chaotic systems. In return one should accept the modified form of quantum formalism (presented by the Schroedinger equation) which, however, does not contradict the ordinary form and the main postulates of quantum mechanics. It introduces the principle of the fundamental dynamic multivaluedness (redundance) extending the quantum paradigm to complex dynamical behaviour. Moreover, a causal solution to the well-known problems of the foundation of quantum mechanics, those of quantum indeterminacy and wave reduction, is also found using the same method. The concept of the fundamental dynamic uncertainty thus established is universal in character and provides a unified scheme of the complete description of arbitrary complex system of any origin (physics/9806002). This scheme incorporates, in particular, universal definitions of complexity, (non)integrability, and general solution, as well as the physically complete notion of probability. One obtains thus a self-consistent hierarchic picture of the world characterised by a (high) non-zero complexity and containing the intrinsic causal randomness, where the causally extended quantum mechanics can be consistently interpreted as several lowest levels of complexity. "   


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