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OfflineAttackgecko
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Registered: 10/15/03
Posts: 5
Last seen: 18 years, 1 month
Big Questions (comments on free will)
    #2062070 - 11/01/03 02:15 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

OK i'm reposting my comments on free will because the "all the big questions answered" thread is very long and my comments on my orignial post are all the way at the end of the thread because i forgot i had posted it for awhile :wink:  here goes...more on free will...

Anyways i skimmed the responses and i'll make a few comments. First despite the title of my post i dont actually claim to have figured it all out. In actuality these are just my ideas, and i wouldn't even go so far as to say that most of them if any are even beliefs, just ideas, theories. I think this, i think that, i know nothing. Ok moving on...
Looks like the free will stuff was what grabbed the most attention and this is the one thing that i said that i MIGHT go so far as to say i believe it and that it is as much a fact as anything can be, and from many of the posts i read it looks like most people are not thinking deeply enough about WHY they make one choice verses another. So you have two paths, which will you choose? whatever path you want right? and it doesnt matter why you choose it as long as you do get to choose? um...wrong atleast on the why part. Why is all important here. We must ask why this or why that, why did i choose left instead of right? there is always a reason, always a cause and as long as there is a cause then there is no true free will. Having options is unimportant if there is always something that makes you choose one option over another, whatever causes you to make your "choice" is that which is in fact robbing you of your free will. There is always a reason, a cause for you wanting one thing over the other. People say we/they have free will but within the confines of physics, but the kind of free will most people are saying they have is exactly that kind which would have to allow you to defy the laws of physics. There is no in between you either have complete free will or you have none. to say i have limited free will would be a contradiction. How ever varied and subtle the forces are that cause us to make one choice over another, they are still forces, and they still CAUSE you to make one choice over another, and there are causes for those causes and so on. There are causes for every desire even, which in turn cause our choices. Even randomness is a cause. If at a moment in time quantum effects influence the environment (and me or you) enough to CAUSE one choice verses another then even in randomness we are robbed of our free will because of conditions we have no control over. Even if it is the interplay between the causes that caused our desire and quantum randomness then still the sum of these CAUSE us to choose one or the other. Even if we had control over conditions there would always be a cause of some kind or line of causes and effects that would MAKE us exert our "control" over conditions one way over another. Someone said something about always having the option to jump out the window if they wanted to as long as the window was there. But why would you make that choice? because you wanted to right? well what CAUSED you to want to? and what CAUSED that CAUSE that MADE you want to? This is why i said that true free will is the ability to make a choice with out regard to any cause, this would be defying the laws of physics, and actually if you are making choices with out cause you would be making random choices, and randomness is not free will either. There is nothing inbetween complete free will which would indeed allow you to defy the laws of physics(it would have to or else it would be limited free will which is a contradiction) and not having free will at all, because once again if something caused your desire and that desire in turn causes you to make one choice verses another then there in no free will, only will, only what you will do and what you wont, only what is and is not. The only other option is if it is possible to defy the laws of physics simply by believing you can, ala NEO. This to my knowledge has never been done, though even so one could argue that no one that we know of has yet believed enough to do it and that it is still a possibility. Then what CAUSES us not to believe enough?  and if i believe enough what CAUSED me to do so? Even if i manage to believe enough to defy the laws of physics it looks as if i had no choice in the matter, because there is something/s that causes me to do so  So in the end if i some how manage to obtain "free" will it looks as if i had no choice in the matter, or even in how i exercise this free will. Because even if i manage to break free of the they system and can somehow defy the laws of physics now, i'm still subject to my past, and all the causes and effects that led me to become who i am, and that person is in fact destined to do what he is going to do
Ok so thats enough about free will, short of refusing to believe it, i see no logical way around my arguements, trust me i wish i did. The other thing i am going to comment on is conscienceness. I am retracting my statement that it is a form of energy, the fact is i dont know what it is, but if everything is energy, then even the effects energy have on the rest of energy would have to be energy wouldn't they? so i'm inclined to still think that it is probably some strange form of energy, like kinetic energy which is an effect generated by other forms of energy,(even matter is a form of energy). Whats really intresting is to wonder if without the "energy" of conscienceness could the rest of the energy still exist? and quantum physics seems to be going in the direction that NO, it couldn't, that it is conscienceness(the observer) that collapses the wave function causing one set of probabilities to become real verses another. The really big question is...is there some ultimate perciever who keeps things "real" when we arent looking? And would this perciever have to be inside the system, a part of the system, or could it be the system itself? or could it be outside the system, but if so how would it be possible for its perceptions to effect the system? could the collective conscienceness of all sentient beings be the conscienceness of the system, which in turn is the ultimate perciever that keeps things "real" when we arent looking? Ok thats enough for now, i dont want people heads to explode....i wonder why i dont want that? and i wonder what causes the cause that makes me not want that...??????BOOM!!!!!SPLAT!!!!....
Sincerely,
that which is and has no choice but to be.
   


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InvisibleZero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland

Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
Loc: Passing Cloud
Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: Attackgecko]
    #2062209 - 11/01/03 03:51 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

welkommen! Ich bin Sean. Du hast viele frage. :wink: 
welcome!!!!!! I am Sean. You have many questions.  :nut:

SEriously though, may i welcome you to the shroomery,  :smile:

Im a floater... yes a floater. I cant help it, i like to dance with the wind. Free Will... Will is not free, hes not a whore either... not always... Hes one of my best friends. People are driven by their wants, there is no doubt about that. It seems ingrained in us to want... to desire. So we are here for a reason, why we have those feelings i dont know.

There is so much yet that we dont understand, Ive tried to stop asking myself questions i cant find answers too, or answers that become too repetitive, and tried to focus on toying with my perception of how i experience things. There is so much you can connect with one another, to be free must you be confined? What if you did not ask Free? or confined? You would not know if you had free will or not, it would not be central to how you "operated", sure its an observation, but does the question pose a serious hendering of our capabilities? After all, how much do we understand of whats going on to change it if we wanted to, we are indeed connected to this physical universe. Keine Ahnung  :laugh:


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What?


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OfflineLightningfractal
Nutcase

Registered: 06/24/03
Posts: 14,899
Loc: Heaven and Hell
Last seen: 8 years, 9 months
Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: Zero7a1]
    #2062420 - 11/01/03 10:25 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Attempting to define infinity in finite terms? When you can fathom infinity, you should then be able to fathom what free will is. These are concepts which exist at the edge of human understanding, which is finite. People get on here and attempt to be experts on subjects which they cannot comprehend. This is most curious, and suggests that humanity rather than admit that there are things beyond their capacity of understanding, desires to attatch false conclusions to the unknown. Perhaps because humanity feels that he is meant to comprehend everything, and that to fail in that would be disgraceful.

However, I suggest that we are born into the finite. We exist in a finite world, with a finite land area, and a finite lifespan. We have a finite capacity for understanding as well, get over it. Just because you FEEL infinite, does not mean that you will automatically be able to comprehend all things infinite. Imagine that.


--------------------
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Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 8 months
Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2062552 - 11/01/03 01:15 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I just can't wait until we have an infinite understanding... :grin:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Invisiblequestioning
shaker
Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 64
Loc: joisey
Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2062645 - 11/01/03 02:25 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

things happen, doesn't matter how. the fact is that they happen and you can take it for what it's worth, or otherwise.
i've never had a bad experience that didn't provide me with something valuabl;e. I've had plenty of horrible things happen to me, involving me, or involving those i love dearly. in the end, a lesson was learned, that couldn't have been learned otherwise, or things have made an unexpected turn for the best. All in all, i'll never know how it happened, i try to focux on the why.

When i'm considering options, i go with my gut, normally the first option i seriously consider. I trust my intuition emensely (sp?) and it's proved trustworthy. When i'm at a total loss, i do nothing until something shows me what to do. i meditate, i shroom, i try and forget it. time after time, the answer reveals itself.


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important questions sometimes involve a quest to answer.


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OfflineHagbardCeline
Student-Teacher-Student-Teacher
Male User Gallery

Registered: 05/10/03
Posts: 9,998
Loc: Overjoyed, at the bottom ...
Last seen: 16 days, 16 hours
Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: Zero7a1]
    #2063908 - 11/02/03 12:15 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Zero7a1 said:
...Free Will... Will is not free,...




It's funny you said that. After I had my ego-loss trip, several weeks later I realized I had made myself a voice memo on my phone. I kept repeating "Free will is not free, free will is not free."

Of course, now I don't know exactly what I meant by that or what my rational was. I still haven't decided how I feel about free will, but I am pretty sure it is an illusion.


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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine


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OfflineZenGecko
enthusiast
Registered: 11/02/03
Posts: 285
Last seen: 8 years, 2 months
Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #2064120 - 11/02/03 02:52 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Um thanks for the comments so far, though a couple of them didn't really seem to have much to do with free will. If the claiming to be an expert comment was directed at me, then just for the record i'm not claiming that, i'm simply trying to lay down a logical arguement that shows free will doesn't exist, and i would very much like some one to have a logical counter arguement, because as it is i'm faced with the seemingly unescapable conclusion that i cannot help but do and be whatever i end up doing or being, and currently i'm trying to be ok with that. I want someone to prove me wrong....i just havent had it happen yet. BTW this is Attackgecko i lost my password and forgot which email i registered under
Sincerely,
That which is and has no choice but to be


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InvisibleZero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland

Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
Loc: Passing Cloud
Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #2064125 - 11/02/03 02:54 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Free will is not free, free will is not free."





maybe you were realized that you have to work for will power, or at least that having that desire to change things comes at a price, that we have to work towards something we want. and that we cant just simply sit in our brain and wish upon it, and have it appear right before us. I dont know, thats just what i first thought of when you wrote that.


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What?


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OfflineLightningfractal
Nutcase

Registered: 06/24/03
Posts: 14,899
Loc: Heaven and Hell
Last seen: 8 years, 9 months
Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2064189 - 11/02/03 03:47 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

If the claiming to be an expert comment was directed at me




It wasn't. There have been multiple threads with multiple posters recently on the subject of free will. And so far I have yet to hear anyone explain free will away, or explain it either. As I said, I believe it exists, yet cannot be explained. I am O.K. with this.

Quote:

i'm simply trying to lay down a logical arguement that shows free will doesn't exist, and i would very much like some one to have a logical counter arguement




This is impossible because the presence of life in the universe is illogical, and free will is a part of this life.


--------------------
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OfflineLightningfractal
Nutcase

Registered: 06/24/03
Posts: 14,899
Loc: Heaven and Hell
Last seen: 8 years, 9 months
Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2064190 - 11/02/03 03:49 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

"Logic" seems to me to be the most primitive and blind of all thought processes.


--------------------
Hi how's it going, wanna kick Heroin basically painlessly on your own, in your own house, without any government "help" ,or the "help" of a crazy condescending, judgmental medical doctor? Read this:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=42&Number=7342616&page=0&fpart=all



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OfflineZenGecko
enthusiast
Registered: 11/02/03
Posts: 285
Last seen: 8 years, 2 months
Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2064203 - 11/02/03 04:08 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Logic i agree cannot lead to absolute truth, if such a thing exists, and i believe it does, because i believe i've experienced it. but it gets us as close to a truth as we can get without some mystical revelation. My own mystical revelations have led me to i guess "know" that free will doesnt exist. And all the evidence i've seen jives with those experiences. I just refused to believe it till then, and actually as i mentioned i'm still coming to terms with it. If randomness isn't free will, and how could it be because u have no control over randomness, and there is always a cause for every desire and there always is however subtle and unnoticed it may be, then you come to the inescapeable conclusion that free will doesnt exist. If something/things are causing me to choose then my choice is but an effect of those causes. You can refuse to except those premises, and if so then my arguement will mean nothing because i can not argue with blind faith. But if someone is going to say i'm wrong then i would very much like to know how i'm wrong, or else i would very much like them to say, "i disagree with you, but i have no logical reason other then faith for doing so"
Sincerely,
That which is and has no choice but to be


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InvisibleMystical_Craven
mentally illpsychonaught

Registered: 06/16/02
Posts: 439
Loc: Earth
Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: Attackgecko]
    #2064483 - 11/02/03 09:48 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

no comments...no constructive critisism...just a little advise:

making massive paragraphs discourage the lazy

breaking up large amounts of information into easily readable sections = k3y


--------------------


"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go..." T.S. Eliot


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OfflineLightningfractal
Nutcase

Registered: 06/24/03
Posts: 14,899
Loc: Heaven and Hell
Last seen: 8 years, 9 months
Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: Mystical_Craven]
    #2064605 - 11/02/03 11:45 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Perhaps it was his plan all along to discorage the lazy. :wink:


--------------------
Hi how's it going, wanna kick Heroin basically painlessly on your own, in your own house, without any government "help" ,or the "help" of a crazy condescending, judgmental medical doctor? Read this:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=42&Number=7342616&page=0&fpart=all



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InvisibleMystical_Craven
mentally illpsychonaught

Registered: 06/16/02
Posts: 439
Loc: Earth
Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2064627 - 11/02/03 12:01 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

perhaps...

or maybe he was just too lazy himself to throw in an extre 'enter' from time to time  :wink: 


--------------------


"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go..." T.S. Eliot


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2066425 - 11/02/03 11:43 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Lightningfractal writes:

And so far I have yet to hear anyone explain free will away, or explain it either. As I said, I believe it exists, yet cannot be explained. I am O.K. with this.

Free will is observable. It exists. The problem most have with it is that according to what we know of the physical properties of the basic building blocks of the observable universe, there seems to be a choice only between random action (in the sense of non-predictable, purposeless action) and predetermined action. Free will is neither random nor predetermined. How to resolve this apparent contradiction?

Maybe consciousness (that attribute of entities which initiates purposeful action) acts in this physical universe, yet is not of (or at least is not entirely of) this universe.

pinky


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OfflineZenGecko
enthusiast
Registered: 11/02/03
Posts: 285
Last seen: 8 years, 2 months
Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: Phred]
    #2069033 - 11/04/03 12:17 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

i have never observed free will, i've only observed causes and the effects of causes, and/or randomness. As for consciencenss, it may be entangled with the quantum world but it arises from the sum of its parts, which are in the physical world, and even if it is greater then the sum of its parts, whether or not its entangled with the quantum world, and whether or not it is not entirely of this universe atleast some of its parts are and there for it is still subject to causality atleast partially, but even partially is enough to kill free will, be cause you cant be influenced at all and still be completely free, and to say something has limited freedom, though a common term is in fact a contridiction. Reasons negate your freewill, and randomness is not free will, because you cant control what is random, its that simple and there is no way around it.
Sincerely,
That which is and has no choice to be
P.S. I'm not writting an academic paper, so i'm not all that focused on gramatical rules and such, but i'm also not here to pander to the lazy, i'm writing this to express myself and to share my ideas and opinions with those who are sincerely intrested in the exploration of such topics. The lazy are welcome to comment, but ofcourse it will be at an increased risk of making themselves look stupid, but thats their choice, not mine, and besides none of us can help but do what we are going to do.


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
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Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2070395 - 11/04/03 07:13 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

ZenGecko writes:

i have never observed free will...

Yeah, you have. You read my post, and my post is proof of my free will. I didn't have to respond to it (predetermination), I chose to respond to it. And I didn't type random strings of characters (randomness), I chose the words after some reflection.

...i've only observed causes and the effects of causes, and/or randomness.

My point exactly. You observed my post (the effect), which was caused by my free will.

pinky


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Invisiblemuhurgle
Turtles all theway down

Registered: 10/29/03
Posts: 299
Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: Phred]
    #2073201 - 11/05/03 02:39 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

That you think you have free will isn't proof that there is free will, now is it? That's kind of the whole basis of the discussion.


--------------------
"To make this mundane world sublime
Take half a gram of phanerothyme."

Aldous Huxley


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
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Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: muhurgle]
    #2073845 - 11/05/03 05:59 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

muhurgle writes:

That you think you have free will isn't proof that there is free will, now is it?

Not only do I think it, I know it and can demonstrate it. Not only do I know I have free will, but you yourself know you have free will. You exercise it every day. You exercised it by choosing to reply to my post rather than ignoring it; by replying in grammatically correct English rather than Swahili or random gibberish; by selecting the thrust of your argument rather than going off on a tangent.

Free will exists, that's not open to debate. What is open to debate is the exact mechanism by which it is exercised.

pinky



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Invisiblemuhurgle
Turtles all theway down

Registered: 10/29/03
Posts: 299
Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: Phred]
    #2074104 - 11/05/03 07:10 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Ok, so what you're saying is that since we experience free will, there is free will, period?

Seems to me you're just redefining the meaning of "free will" to be the experience of free will. That still doesn't answer the question of determinance. Given the exact same universe the moment before I answered your post, would it be impossible to predict what I'm going to do (ie. answer it or not) since I have free will?

What I'm actually going to do is another thing, it would probably be the same. I would still answer the post. The interesting part is wether it would be possible to predict this with certainty or not. My understanding of free will is; given a bystander outside our universe with complete understanding of the rules that govern it, could he give a definite yes or no to that question? If he could, then there is no free will.

If I understand you correctly, you say that since we can't predict it, or we can't see our universe from the outside, there is free will, since it's all we can experience.

In my opinion, wether such a bystander exists or could exists or whatever, is irrelevant.


--------------------
"To make this mundane world sublime
Take half a gram of phanerothyme."

Aldous Huxley


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: muhurgle]
    #2075276 - 11/06/03 12:13 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

muhurgle writes:

Ok, so what you're saying is that since we experience free will, there is free will, period?

Of course. How else can it be validated except through direct experience? That is how we validate everything.

Given the exact same universe the moment before I answered your post, would it be impossible to predict what I'm going to do (ie. answer it or not) since I have free will?

Yes. It would be impossible to predict with certainty what you would do.

My understanding of free will is; given a bystander outside our universe with complete understanding of the rules that govern it, could he give a definite yes or no to that question? If he could, then there is no free will.

Excellent way of putting it. I like that very much. Did you think that up on your own? If so, I envy you. I wish I'd thought it up. Mind if I borrow it for future use?

I agree that if such a being could make an accurate prediction in every case, then there would indeed be no such thing as free will.

If I understand you correctly, you say that since we can't predict it, or we can't see our universe from the outside, there is free will, since it's all we can experience.

No. I am saying that since your actions are neither random nor predetermined, you have free will. You didn't choose to answer my post because the physical laws governing subatomic particles made it inevitable that you do, but because your consciousness -- that attribute of yourself which apprehends reality and directs your actions -- decided to.

In my opinion, wether such a bystander exists or could exists or whatever, is irrelevant.

Of course it is irrelevant. The existence of free will does not depend on an outside observer.

pinky


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OfflineZenGecko
enthusiast
Registered: 11/02/03
Posts: 285
Last seen: 8 years, 2 months
Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: Phred]
    #2075935 - 11/06/03 03:39 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Your conscienceness, is formed from the effects/or causes of genetics and environment, which make you the person you are, your thoughts feelings ect...are all a result of the effects of genetics and evironment, they are your reactions, to actions, and your actions that cause reaction throughout the system, which were inturn caused by forces within the system, thus make you make the choices you make. Its as simple as this if you choose to respond or not respond to this post there is a reason a cause, that makes you make one choice over another, as long as there is a reason(the words reason and cause are interchangeble) then you had no choice but to choose what you did, so really u had no choice. And even if you could go back in time to the exact moment of your choice and all the conditions where exactly the same just before that choice was made, and because of quantum randomness, the evironment at the moment of your choice would be changed and might be just different enough to CUASE you to choose the other option instead of the orignial option chosen then you still dont have free will because it was randomness's effects on the conditions that led you to make a different choice this time. You cant rewind the the system and have it be the same, because then all the quantum events that helped make the environment the way it was upon your initial choice would have be reset and be able to come out in completely different ways then they did in the system that you made your initial choice in, infact the entire universe would be altered, because all quantum events from the begining of time would have had the chance to happen in different ways. So if there is no randomness u cant make a different choice if u rewind time, because thats determinism, if there is randomness you might be able to, but it still wouldn't be free will because u didnt have any control over those random effects that cause you to make another choice, so there was no will for you to excercise, no freedom atleast not the kind u want. The whole idea of going back and doing it over is nonsense because the conditions can never be the same because of quantum randomness, so to ask the question "if i go back to the moment of my choice, and everything is the same can i choose something different?" is pointless because it can't be done. either randomness will cause you to choose differently, or if you knew your previous choice then you will be changed enough so that the conditions will no longer be the same as the initial conditions were, or everything will be exactly the same as the intial conditions were(the only way that is even close to being possible is if you arent aware of your initial choice), and in which case because conditions are the same, and your the same, you will make the same choice, if you didnt you'd just be making a random choice and once again randomness isn't free will because you need control to excercise your free will, and it would have to be absolute control, because limited control would be limited freedom wich is an oxymoron, and absolute control isn't possible because by default having absolute control would also mean that you were capable of knowing every effect that your choice would have, and the effects of those effects and so on an on and on, which isnt possible. its atleast not possible due to the uncertainy principle, so ok lets say that principle is wrong, well guess what if it is that means we live in a completely deterministic world and in which case you dont have freewill because of the very nature of a deterministic world. What you people are saying is that there is somehow a way to make a choice without regards to the conditions surrounding that choice, and for that choice to somehow not be random. But that is impossible. your saying something exists between randomness and nonrandomness, what mechanism could possibly allow for such a mysterious thing? quantum theories of conscienceness cant, because at best they only mean our mind is directly effected by inherent quantum randomness, and randomness isn't freewill, because there is no "will" allowed by randomness. True freedom is utter randomness, but what good is freedom if we have no true choice in how it is excersised. True freewill is utter nonsense because the free part is random and will is not allowed by randomness, its an oxymoron. So in a deterministic world, no free will, everything is predetermined, and in a non deterministic world no free will because the indeterminism stems from randomness which cannot be controled thus giving you no chance to ecersise your will. You can believe that there is some how some magical way for something to exist between randomness and that which is determined but then how? how does it exist? what is it? what gave rise to it? and what gave rise to that which gave rise to it? Face the truth or believe in nonsense, either way its ok because u cant help but do what your going to do, because u dont have free will!!!!!!
Sincerely,
That which is, and has no choice but to be


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Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2076190 - 11/06/03 07:23 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Man, paragraph spacing! It is a lesson that I learned the hard way, but I found that it wasn't too hard to hit a return after some sentences. Hell, I even used to hit tab at the start of the next paragraph as well, but it never actually showed up in the post.

Very much easier to read when it can be presented in a form where people can read a thought, reflect on it, and then go on to explore the next thought without losing their place in a bunch of words.

Good spacing of thoughts is necessary if one really wants to get what they have to say acrossed to the person reading it. Try it and be amazed at its sucess. :grin:
Peace.


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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: Phred]
    #2076200 - 11/06/03 07:46 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

> Not only do I think it, I know it and can demonstrate it. ... by replying in grammatically correct English rather than Swahili or random gibberish ...

Good example. Demonstrate this free will you speak of and reply in Swahili, please. Better yet, grow wings and fly away. You have free will, you can do anything, no?

Just because you can make a choice, does not mean that you have free will. You have free will within the system that you exist, but you will always be limited to that system. A fish cannot breath air no matter how badly it wants to.


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Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: Seuss]
    #2076414 - 11/06/03 10:25 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
Good example.  Demonstrate this free will you speak of and reply in Swahili, please.  Better yet, grow wings and fly away.  You have free will, you can do anything, no?

Just because you can make a choice, does not mean that you have free will.  You have free will within the system that you exist, but you will always be limited to that system.  A fish cannot breath air no matter how badly it wants to. 




Well, it could evolve as a species to breathe air.... :grin:

You may be limited by the system that you are in. But you still are free to make any choice that is possible within that system. That includes increasing the size of the system that you are in. One could choose to learn Swahili and then could speak it.

What this comes on down to is how you define free will. If free will is defined as some sort of power that allows you to create anything, do anything, be anything with no regard for any situation, I don't consider that free will, I consider that being God. My definition of free will is to have the ability to make any choice that one wishes, as long as that choice is available to be made.
Peace.


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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: Phred]
    #2076740 - 11/06/03 12:44 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Free will exists, that's not open to debate

really? one of the greatest debates in philosophy... is not open to debate?



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Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2076743 - 11/06/03 12:46 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

infidelGOD said:
really? one of the greatest debates in philosophy... is not open to debate?
 




Nope. God has spoken. :grin:
Peace.


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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2076750 - 11/06/03 12:51 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

:lol:

forgive me  :wink:
 


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Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2076766 - 11/06/03 01:04 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Laughter angers your God.
:grin:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2076839 - 11/06/03 01:36 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Laughter angers your God.

he lacks humor?

or does he just hate the sound of laughter?  :wink:
 


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Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2076863 - 11/06/03 01:47 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

infidelGOD said:
he lacks humor?

or does he just hate the sound of laughter?  :wink:
 




Oh, he has humour. He just doesn't appreciate others laughing. Only Him, for he is the only one holy enough to deserve to laugh. :grin:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2078482 - 11/06/03 10:30 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

ZenGecko writes:

Your conscienceness, is formed from the effects/or causes of genetics and environment, which make you the person you are, your thoughts feelings ect...are all a result of the effects of genetics and evironment, they are your reactions, to actions, and your actions that cause reaction throughout the system, which were inturn caused by forces within the system, thus make you make the choices you make.

This is incomplete. Your consciousness is more than just the memories of things that have happened to you. Your consciousness is capable not just of absorbing and reacting to stimuli, but also of initiating action, even in the absence of any outside stimulus.

Its as simple as this if you choose to respond or not respond to this post there is a reason a cause, that makes you make one choice over another, as long as there is a reason(the words reason and cause are interchangeble) then you had no choice but to choose what you did, so really u had no choice.

Yes, there is a reason I chose to respond to this post -- I consciously made the decision to do so. Not because of any environmental factors (gee, it's hot in here, I think I'll respond to a post) or any genetic predisposition (my parents were capable of typing, therefore I must type now), but because I chose to do so. I had the choice. As a matter of fact, I almost chose not to. Perhaps I should have, as nothing I say will convince you to believe the evidence of your own senses.

And even if you could go back in time to the exact moment of your choice and all the conditions where exactly the same just before that choice was made, and because of quantum randomness, the evironment at the moment of your choice would be changed and might be just different enough to CUASE you to choose the other option instead of the orignial option chosen then you still dont have free will because it was randomness's effects on the conditions that led you to make a different choice this time.

Speculation, nothing more.

a) you cannot go back in time.
b) if time travel were possible, you cannot say that quantum randomness would make things different. Quantum randomness is a phenomenon of subatomic particles, not of macro-entities.
c) even if quantum randomness did exhibit itself at the macro level, that doesn't mean it affects one's choices. That is your theory -- as yet unproven and at odds with observable reality and your own experience.

You cant rewind the the system and have it be the same, because then all the quantum events that helped make the environment the way it was upon your initial choice would have be reset and be able to come out in completely different ways then they did in the system that you made your initial choice in, infact the entire universe would be altered, because all quantum events from the begining of time would have had the chance to happen in different ways.

See above.

So if there is no randomness u cant make a different choice if u rewind time, because thats determinism, if there is randomness you might be able to, but it still wouldn't be free will because u didnt have any control over those random effects that cause you to make another choice, so there was no will for you to excercise, no freedom atleast not the kind u want.

You are missing the point. Free will is neither a manifestation of randomness nor of predetermination. Rattling on about either gets you nowhere.

The whole idea of going back and doing it over is nonsense because the conditions can never be the same because of quantum randomness, so to ask the question "if i go back to the moment of my choice, and everything is the same can i choose something different?" is pointless because it can't be done.

Who said anything about doing it over? Who asked "If I go back to the moment of my choice..." ? Not me.

either randomness will cause you to choose differently, or if you knew your previous choice then you will be changed enough so that the conditions will no longer be the same as the initial conditions were, or everything will be exactly the same as the intial conditions were(the only way that is even close to being possible is if you arent aware of your initial choice), and in which case because conditions are the same, and your the same, you will make the same choice, if you didnt you'd just be making a random choice and once again randomness isn't free will because you need control to excercise your free will, and it would have to be absolute control, because limited control would be limited freedom wich is an oxymoron, and absolute control isn't possible because by default having absolute control would also mean that you were capable of knowing every effect that your choice would have, and the effects of those effects and so on an on and on, which isnt possible.

See above. You are twisting yourself into insanely complicated linguistic knots by chasing after something completely beside the point. One need not have absolute knowledge in order to choose to order a Big Mac rather than a Quarter Pounder.

its atleast not possible due to the uncertainy principle, so ok lets say that principle is wrong, well guess what if it is that means we live in a completely deterministic world and in which case you dont have freewill because of the very nature of a deterministic world.

I suggest you re-read my first post and grok this for a while -- what if one's consciousness acts on this observable universe, but is not entirely of this observable universe?

What you people are saying is that there is somehow a way to make a choice without regards to the conditions surrounding that choice, and for that choice to somehow not be random.

Correct.

But that is impossible.

Clearly it is not, since all of us exercise that choice countless times each day. I'm doing it right now. So are you. If your theory contradicts observable reality, your theory is flawed.

your saying something exists between randomness and nonrandomness, what mechanism could possibly allow for such a mysterious thing?

I dunno. The fact that we have yet to determine the mechanism of consciousness doesn't alter the fact that it exists. Are you conscious or are you not?

quantum theories of conscienceness cant, because at best they only mean our mind is directly effected by inherent quantum randomness, and randomness isn't freewill, because there is no "will" allowed by randomness.

Agreed. Therefore there is more to consciousness than quantum mechanics can explain.

True freedom is utter randomness, but what good is freedom if we have no true choice in how it is excersised.

True freedom is not utter randomness.

True freewill is utter nonsense because the free part is random and will is not allowed by randomness, its an oxymoron.

No, it is not. It is your insistence that freedom is randomness that is confusing you here. Randomness is not freedom, it is randomness.

So in a deterministic world, no free will, everything is predetermined...

Correct. Therefore the observable existence of free will invalidates the theory that consciousness is a purely mechanistic phenomenon.

... and in a non deterministic world no free will because the indeterminism stems from randomness which cannot be controled thus giving you no chance to ecersise your will.

Correct again. Therefore the observable existence of free will invalidates the theory that consciousness is a purely random phenomenon.

You can believe that there is some how some magical way for something to exist between randomness and that which is determined but then how?

Dunno. Nonetheless, it exists.

how does it exist?

Dunno. Nonetheless, it exists.

what is it?

Dunno. Nonetheless, it exists.

what gave rise to it?

Dunno. Nonetheless, it exists.

and what gave rise to that which gave rise to it?

Dunno. Nonetheless, it exists.

Face the truth or believe in nonsense...

If you choose to ignore the evidence of your senses, that's no skin off my nose. All the questions you asked above are valid questions. The fact that no one can yet give a convincing answer to any of them doesn't alter the fact that consciousness exists, and that one of the attributes of consciousness is the ability to initiate purposeful action -- i.e. exercise free will.

A century ago no one could explain how the sun could burn in a vacuum, how it came into existence, what existed before it. That didn't change the fact that the sun exists.

...either way its ok because u cant help but do what your going to do, because u dont have free will!!!!!!

If exercising your free will led you to that conclusion, then of course you are free to continue to believe it.

pinky


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Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2078521 - 11/06/03 10:38 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

infidelGOD writes:

really? one of the greatest debates in philosophy... is not open to debate?

Few serious philosophers deny the existence of free will... it is readily observable. The great debate is not whether or not it exists, but how to explain it -- why it exists; by what mechanisms does it come into existence and precisely how is it exercised.

To deny the existence of free will is in principle the same as denying the existence of consciousness. Consciousness and volition are inextricably entwined. Few serious philosophers deny the existence of consciousness either... to do so one must disregard the evidence of one's senses. The great debate is not about whether or not consciousness exists, but about the nature of consciousness.

pinky


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InvisibleOkEyToKeY
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Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) *DELETED* [Re: Phred]
    #2079518 - 11/07/03 03:33 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Post deleted by OkEyToKeY

Reason for deletion: .



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OfflineZenGecko
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Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: OkEyToKeY]
    #2079700 - 11/07/03 04:57 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Okey and Suess seem to understand, the rest of you unfortunately seem lost, or ill equiped to be having this conversation. I'm not trying to insult anyone by saying that i'm jost pointing out that some of you may not have the basic scientific knowledge, understanding of logical rules, and grasp of philosophy to mount a serious logical counter arguement. I know that sounds arrogant as hell and like i sait that not my intention but i do believe it to be accurate. First many of your arguements against me are based on sensory information, which is not reliable in many cases, how many mistakes do u make a day because of a misinterpretation of sense data? how often do u not understand something completely because of lack of sense data? have you ever seen an optical illusion and been fooled by it for atleast a moment? sense data is not always accurate, that is a fact. The rest of the responses are based on the assumption that there is something that exists between randomness and determinism, and that free will is this thing, yet you offer no logical proof other then saying that is what you percieve to be so, but hell i can percieve you to have horns on your head, a pitch fork and a pointy tail but chances are i'm just delusional and your not really the devil. And that is indeed what is happening here, your under the delusion that there is free will, your basically hallucinating, and buying into that illusion, and that illusion is skewing the way you interpret evidence(you have to atleast admit this is a possibility) that is counter to your belief, in fact your delusion is self reinforcing. Most of the counter arguements i've read between my last post and this one demonstrated a lack of basic knowledge about physics and logic, i'm not trying to be mean by saying that, thats just how it is. your counter arguements are based on blind faith and assumptions that are not supported by observable measurable facts, and the arguements are logically inconsistant.
(happy now, i indented)
If you converted my sentences to mathmatical form, assigning a number or letter, or symbol to each primise and added the premises up you cannot help but come to the sum or conclusion that i have if you follow the rules of logic(i've taken a class on it, i know a lil bit about it) The problem here is that your either accepting my premises yet saying they dont add up (which i have to adimit is possible, i too could be delusional, and i'm willing to admit it, are you?) but unlike me, your not offering a logically consistant set of arguements for doing so, or your not accepting my premises which is ok, but then the burden of disproving them in a logical and constistent manner is up to you, which so far none have risen to that challenge, the arguements are faith based and sense based, not logically based. Its ok to believe i'm wrong and not know how i'm wrong but its unfair to not quantify your responses by stating that you dont know, instead just saying that i'm wrong, or offering nonlogically consistent arguements to support your conclusions, which is just not an effective counter arguement.
Another problem is many of you seem to be completely over simplifying causality. It is not usually a simple chain of cause then effect then cause, it is more like a web with interconnected causes and interconnected effects, and each effect is also a cause and each cause also an effect, and All these add up to create the environment your in this very moment and to make you the person you are this very moment. Your completely underestimating the subtlety of these causes and effects. Even when your at rest and your mind is just generating seemingly random thoughts, they arent really random, they are all the result of past experiences, worries about the future, observations of the present and a myriead of other causes, and those things are indeed causes, they are often effects too, they are both at the same time. Again every cause is an effect, and every effect has atleast the potential to also be a cause. Beleive me, if i see a logically consistant arguement that is in freewill's favor, i'll be the first to jump all over it, i dont want to believe what i do, so believe me when i say that i'm not defending this position out of arrogance or ego, i'm defending it because i have no choice but to believe its true, because every shred of evidence i've ever seen in my entire life, and even the one or two mystical kensho like experiences i've had all point to the same conclusion, not only does freewill not exist but the whole idea of it is an oxymoron. I want you to prove me wrong, its just that sadly no one has. i read all the counter arguements and everyone was either not based in logic or derived from a misunderstanding of my premises or conclusions.
Sincerely,
That which is, and has no choice but to be


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OfflineZenGecko
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Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2079810 - 11/07/03 05:26 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Damnit i really did indent, dont know why it didnt show up right...anyways i forgot to add that it is also a mistake to assume that the quantum world has no effect on the macro world, the quantum world is the foundation of the macro world, just like the foundation of a building if you remove it, the building cannot stand. Also more and more experiments are begining to show that quantum forces are present in the macro world but just very hard to detect, but as our ability to measure those forces gets better we are finding them at larger and larger scales.(i read alot of science and tech news) Also i forgot to add that freewill is by no means a settled issue in philosophy, or science. It is possible that most people believe in freewill but even those philosophers who believe it are still scrambling to justify those beliefs. Ofcourse it is possible that proof for or against freewill exists and the problem is that some of us refuse to believe it, that probably is infact the situation. I'd bet my life it doesnt but i understand how hard that belief is to adopt and come to terms with, But i'd rather believe what is most likely to be true then believe just because thats what i want to be true. Ofcourse as delusional as i think you all are, i have to admit again that i could be the delusional one....But my math adds up, and its hard to argue with math, other then BLIND faith based arguements.
Sincerely,
That which is, and has no choice but to be


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2079968 - 11/07/03 06:46 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

All I am saying is hit return every once and awhile. :grin:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: OkEyToKeY]
    #2080307 - 11/07/03 10:23 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Okey writes:

Observable to who?

Everyone.

What particular overt, behavioral responses have you seen in people other than yourself that prove free will exist?

Your response to this thread, for one. Note that even if the only behavioral responses I had seen were my own, that too would validate the existence of free will. If I (a human) possess it, other humans do as well.

Basically, just because we don't understand how the decision making process works, doesn't mean we can discount it as free will or the absence thereof.

The process of making a decision necessarily involves free will. If the "decision" is made for you, it is not a decision, but a reaction.

All we can rightly say is that, if the person said yes, and raised their right hand, is that they did exactly that. And if that's exactly what they did, then that is the only choice they had to them at the time, because they made that choice. If they had a different one, they would have made that instead.

Nonsense. The fact that a person, faced with the choice of A or B, chooses A, does not mean he had to choose A.

That leaves us two options as to how that choice was made...

Again, if actions are determined either by predestination or by randomness, it is inaccurate to use the word "choice".

We can't answer that question, and we never will be able to.

Yeah, we can. Let's do another thought experiment. Mentally flip a coin in your head, then write down the result. You can choose to write "heads" a dozen times in a row, or a hundred times, or a thousand times. Or you can choose to mix "heads" and "tails". Or you can choose to write "squonk". Or you can choose to write nothing at all.

Those who claim there is no free will are of necessity saying we have no control over our actions. This is so demonstrably untrue that it shouldn't stand close inspection for more than a couple of minutes.

pinky


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2080346 - 11/07/03 10:42 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

ZenGecko writes:

'm not trying to insult anyone by saying that i'm jost pointing out that some of you may not have the basic scientific knowledge, understanding of logical rules, and grasp of philosophy to mount a serious logical counter arguement.

Sorry, my friend, but it is you who appears not to have a firm grasp of logic, scientific knowledge, and philosophy.

You insist the only way to explain the actions of a conscious being is to say they are either random or predetermined. You leave out a third possibility -- that these actions are volitional. This is a gap in your "logic".

You then go on to discount the evidence of your senses, ignoring the fact that all your knowledge, and all your mathematical rules, were derived from sensory input -- observation of the universe. If the senses are not delivering accurate information to humans, any system (i.e. mathematics) derived from that information by humans cannot be trusted either. If this is true, trying to support your argument through mathematical or scientific concepts is futile.

If you converted my sentences to mathmatical form, assigning a number or letter, or symbol to each primise and added the premises up you cannot help but come to the sum or conclusion that i have if you follow the rules of logic(i've taken a class on it, i know a lil bit about it)

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Your exclusion of the third alternative is a common logical fallacy.

but unlike me, your not offering a logically consistant set of arguements for doing so, or your not accepting my premises which is ok, but then the burden of disproving them in a logical and constistent manner is up to you, which so far none have risen to that challenge, the arguements are faith based and sense based, not logically based.

First, your argument is not logically consistent. It lacks rigor. See above.

Second, my argument has nothing to do with faith and everything to do with observable reality. Humans routinely engage in action that is neither random nor mechanistic, but purposeful. This is readily observable.

You claim you want to believe free will exists, but you refuse to accept the evidence of your own senses as valid. There is therefore no way anyone can ever prove to you it exists.

pinky


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OfflineZenGecko
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Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: Phred]
    #2082912 - 11/08/03 02:54 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Pinky, once and for all, all my senses tell me it doesn't exist. So either your senses are wrong or mine are. Either way that right there proves that sense data can not be relied upon to be completely accurate, and yes your right that probably does extend into the mathmatical world, but its the best we got. Its the most rifined and accurate application and interpretation of sense data. As for this volition you speak of, what is that? explain to me how it comes about with out a cause, or with out being randomn. People are failing to consider the implications here. What i'm saying besides the ideas of freewill being nonsense, so are the words, decision, choice. The are conceptions based on perceptions, but the perceptions are false, and/or the conceptions are false. Its just like in quantum physics where the way things are totally do not jive with the way we experience things to be in everyday life, but yet, underneath it all, that is fundamentally the way things are, and we are just barely begining to wrap our minds around that strangeness. Someone please explain to me what lies between randomness and determinism, and how that thing comes about, so many of you are claiming that it exists but no one can describe it, or how it works other then saying, "its freewill man" Excluding Volition is not a logical fallacy, I looked the word up just to make sure i got the meaning right, and volition means to make a choice. I already out lined that if your choice is caused by something, and i explained how it always is, then it isn't really a choice. The words "volition" and "choice" are just conceptions used to expain appearant reality, but the way reality appears isnt fundamentally how it really is...ie quantum physics. So again i ask, if my i make a "choice" and it isnt a random choice, and the choice wasnt caused by anything, then how did i make it, what mechanism allowed me to choose, and how does this mechanism work, where does it live?
Sincerely,
That which is, and has no choice but to be


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Offlinecontam
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Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2083148 - 11/08/03 06:18 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

As I understand it - we have greater and greater knowledge of the patterns that things fall into but no understanding of causation itself. If we do not understand causation then any kind of certainty in this area is difficult imo.

"how does this mechanism work, where does it live?"

no one could explain that, but then you couldn't explain causation and yet you seem very certain of your opinions about it.

Determinism is only really a problem for atheists. If you believe in God you can just say "there is no cause for anything except by the will of God and that will can be delegated to creatures which are the creation of said God." God is by definition outside causality. It can't be proved, but it's possible.


If you argue for determinism then you argue that you have no choice but to believe in it, no choice but to argue for it. You also argue that those that believe in free will have no choice but to believe in free will.

This may not show that derterminism is false exactly, but it does raise the question of a possible self destroying paradox.

You can't take yourself out of the system.



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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2083310 - 11/08/03 08:36 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

So... no chance of you hitting return every once awhile to split your messages into organized, well readable posts?
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineZenGecko
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Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2085789 - 11/09/03 03:43 AM (18 years, 30 days ago)

I definately have not forgotten that i am within the system, and i believe that this is all happening because it is supposed to, including all my posts, all your replys and what i'm about to type now...i cannot help but do, what i'm going to do. If everything is gods will, then there is determinism and god is the cause of it, You can even argue that god wills there to be randomness, so even randomness does not really negate determinism(but that begs the question of whether even god would know the outcome of a supposedly random even he willed). But if everything is gods will, then every choice we make, and actually the concept of choice is nonsense, but anyways every choice  was made because it was gods will,(and this is true independent of any causation in the physical world) thus we really had no choice we were just inacting gods will at any given moment. Even if we are a part of god, at best we are a finger or some small part that has no will of its own, but can only do what its told to do (consciencely or subconsciencely) by god, if god has a subconscience :wink: but still it is god that causes our action, in a way it is us, because we are part of god, but the will lies with god taken as a whole, and not at our individual level. We are the parts maybe, and god is the sum that is greater then its parts. As far as hitting enter, its hard to say, the future may be predetermined but it is still uncertain because we cannot know it, whether it is because of randomness or our inability to see that far ahead, so only time will tell my friend.
Sincerely,
That which is, and has no choice but to be


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Offlinecontam
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Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2086054 - 11/09/03 07:44 AM (18 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

If everything is gods will, then there is determinism and god is the cause of it, But if everything is gods will, then every choice we make, and actually the concept of choice is nonsense, but anyways every choice was made because it was gods will, Even if we are a part of god, at best we are a finger or some small part that has no will of its own, but can only do what its told to do




What I said:

Quote:

Determinism is only really a problem for atheists. If you believe in God you can just say "there is no cause for anything except by the will of God and that will can be delegated to creatures which are the creation of said God." God is by definition outside causality.




"we are a finger or some small part that has no will of its own, but can only do what its told to do"

wtf? how on earth would you know this?










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Offlinecontam
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watts quote. [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2086091 - 11/09/03 08:25 AM (18 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Western man developed an intense consciousness of his separation from the rest of the universe. He probed it, analyzed it, reasoned about it as one who was not a part of it. Naturally, this purely analytic mode of thought destroyed its object; it reduced the universe to its lowest terms, it's disjointed elements, its smallest fragments.

The process of disintegration was so complex that no one man could comprehend the entire process. Therefore specialization became necessary. Knowledge was divided into a mass of subdivisions wherein each man learned more and more about less and less, until the work of analysis and disintegration was carried to its very limits. The view of the universe which finally emerged was the necessary result of the method of investigation. The universe was merely a system, if such a thing can be called a system, in which an incredible number of particles were going through haphazard permutations and combinations for colossal periods of time. That they had produced certain "ordered" forms such as the human mind, the solar system, vegetative life, and the like, was the result of pure statistical necessity.

By this process reason destroyed itself. After all, man himself was a part of this system, and man too was the product of statistical necessity, together with his reason, his theories, his ideas-including, we may observe, the idea of statistical necessity. Reason itself disappeared in meaningless mechanism.

That man is free is one of the deepest of human intuitions, and it can only be denied at the price of surrendering rational thought. If you argue that you have no freedom, you imply that you are compelled to argue in this way, and thus your opinion is not a free and rational decision but a compulsive mechanism of no more significance than a nervous tic. All rational thought and action assume a relative freedom of will.





So your own beliefs are either the inevitable consequence of antecedent states over which you have no control or they are somehow random. Your argument is therefore on treacherous ground.


surprisingly, I am actually very open to the idea that *your* beliefs may be randomly generated or that you have no control over them. It would certainly account for them far better than rational thought ever could.    :wink: 


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OfflineZenGecko
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Re: watts quote. [Re: contam]
    #2088299 - 11/10/03 02:55 AM (18 years, 29 days ago)

No that is exactly my arguement, that everything, including what i'm doing right now, is the result of a cause, in which case i have no freewill in what i'm doing because that cause, is causing me to do it. Actually its more complicated then that, it is likely that causality is actually the interplay between randomness and the gerneral lines of cause and effect that we see in life. The ones we see are the ones we might have a chance of predicting up to a point, but then the randomness eventually makes it impossible to predict anything with absolute accuracy in the long run. And we would need to have the ability to predict everything always, in order to have the necessary control to give us true freedom of will, but we cant, because no matter what we will, what we will wont always happen, thus we have at best limited free will, but limited freedom is a logical contradiction, you are either completely free or not at all. Limited freedom is an oxymoron. If there is always a cause for making one choice over another, what good was there in even having another option, really u didnt have the option just the illusion of an option. You need complete control to be completely free, and you need to be able to always predict every action and reaction perfectly to have complete control. Randomness doesn't save freewill either, because u cant exercise your will over randomness, at best, you can take a guess, or try to guide how it all unfolds, but you'll never know how much was your doing and how much was just luck, and you were destined to try to excersise that control, and the effectiveness or lack there of, was destined from the start anyways. Like i said true free will would be the ability to make a choice without regard to any cause, yet somehow that choice would have to NOT be random, you can't will randomness, thus the will u need for freewill isn't possible, so no free will. What everyone wants is there to be some way for something to not be predetermined, but also not be random, and this just doesn't exist, there is no room for anything to exist in reality between those two concepts, they are mutually exclusive. Anyways these arguements have been laid out earlier and in far greater detail. As far as the knowing we arent more then the equivelent of gods finger or something, technically i dont know anything, and neither do you, nor anybody else, at best we have beliefs. But i arrived at that conclusion through logical deduction(and i was faited to do so). If god's will is the cause of everything, and whether or not i'm part of god, if i dont know what god is going to do, or has done now, or in the future, or why god did that in the past then obviously it is not i on the individual level that willed this all. I may be part of the greater whole that willed it all, but i am unaware of the reasons for it, or even exactly what will be happening next, thus i am like the finger that is part of the person but the will to move the finger lies in the person as a whole and not the finger itself, because the finger doesnt know whats happening next till its told to do something, and even then the finger isnt actually aware of whats going on, how could it be, its just a finger? At best we have the gift of limited awareness of whats going on, we might be the finger that knows its moving, and we might have an idea as to why we are moving, but we can't choose to stop. We just do what we have to do at any given moment.
It is only god that has any chance of having free will, because if there is only god (meaning we and everything else are apart of god) then there is nothing to cause god to do anything, or even to desire anything, his will would be manifested spontaniously, yet it wouldn't be random, thus meeting the conditions we established earlier to allow freewill. But now here is where it gets tricky. IF there is only god, could the nothingness outside god cause god to take a particular action? If god/the system is conscience and can make choices and think, and reason, then it is almost certain that at some point it would have to take some action. and if outside god there is nothing, maybe its possible that the nothingness because of boredom or curiousity or something caused by the lack of anything else but god, motivates/causes god to do something. I dont know, but its an intresting thing to ponder. Anyways the main points are, that the concepts of freewill, choice, options, are just made up things that try to describe appearent reality, but that fundamentally these these conceptions only exist in our head, and dont describe actually reality. ofcourse you can argue that there is no difference between percieved reality and actual reality, because if you believe a lie, its still true to you. But as far as freewill goes, we only have the very real illusion of freewilll (well some of us atleast) The rest of us are left with uncertainy as our only comfort, how horrible it would be to know, that everything you are you had no choice but to be good or bad, and that you could effect no change you were not meant to, and above all... how horrible to know that your life is going to suck, now and forever, thus uncertainy atleast affords the rest of us hope of a better tomorrow. Ofcourse if everything is good now, there is always the possibility that tomorrow it wont be, we just dont know, and we cant know, so no choice but to do what we are going to do, and be what we are supposed to be.
Sincerely,
That which is, and has no choice but to be
P.S. Your quote would have been more accurate (in my opinion) if it would have said..."That man is free is one of the deepest of human ILLUSIONS, and THAT ILLUSION can only be CONSIDERED TRUE at the price of surrendering rational thought IN FAVOR OF BLIND FAITH."


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OfflineZenGecko
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Re: watts quote. [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2095787 - 11/12/03 06:31 AM (18 years, 27 days ago)

bumped, out of boredom and ego (damn another step backwards)  :wink:
Sincerely,
That which is, and has no choice but to be (my only consolation)


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OfflineMalachi
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Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: Zero7a1]
    #2131001 - 11/23/03 08:35 PM (18 years, 15 days ago)

1. free will can be limited to a context

2. choosing is not determined, you just aren't thinking about sacrifice. it sucks, but since we have free will the concept exists.


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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OfflineEntelle
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Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: muhurgle]
    #2131068 - 11/23/03 09:09 PM (18 years, 15 days ago)

just my thots: If there is free will, or if there isn't, it seems hard to prove one way or another. Instead of chasing your tail in a circle, one could just live as if there was free will. What is there to lose by assuming free will exists? i find it better to carry on rather than waffle in indecision. but really, that is just my thots. and i think i am important enough to have free will. of course this could be a delusion.

and also: paragraph breaks make it easier to keep the jist of your post in order, easier to keep the eye on the correct line, leading to understanding, or at least a better comprehension.


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"Not all those who wander are lost."


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: Phred]
    #6821141 - 04/23/07 12:23 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

bump


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