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OfflineEarth_Droid
Stranger
Registered: 04/19/02
Posts: 5,240
Last seen: 17 years, 7 months
Re: you think you have free will but you dont. [Re: Rob_K]
    #1547570 - 05/14/03 07:24 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

of course its a bit of both. why can't things both exist at the same time? free will can exist and it can be pre determed. Why are people so black and white.

Edited by Earth_Droid (05/14/03 07:28 AM)

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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
Son of Uncle Meat
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Registered: 06/06/02
Posts: 19,058
Loc: Toronto Canada
Re: you think you have free will but you dont. [Re: Earth_Droid]
    #1547573 - 05/14/03 07:27 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

i've held that view for a long time E_D, that free will and (self) determinism exist simultaneously :smile: 


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"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"


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OfflineEvilGir
Im the on coming storm

Registered: 11/26/01
Posts: 1,301
Loc: Planet Irk
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
Re: you think you have free will but you dont. [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #1547826 - 05/14/03 10:10 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

I almost agree to this but i dont think it has anything to do with our brains but our minds even then this would only apply to 95% of the poppulation because they are sheep anyway. But some of this has been proven though psychological studies ect. Such as 95% of right handed people will turn right once walking though a door way. There is also sub-concious decesions that you make all the time with out even realising it.


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Fighting the man the best way I can.

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OfflineEarth_Droid
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Registered: 04/19/02
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Re: you think you have free will but you dont. [Re: EvilGir]
    #1547834 - 05/14/03 10:14 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

It all depends on certain states of awareness. Everyone is ruled by a certain degree of conditioning and action that is not well thought through. This is what makes the idea of free will a reality. Without the idea of conditioning, there would not be free will. At least that seems to make sense to me at this moment. I am freely using my brain to respond and picking the right words out.

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Offlinelouco
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Registered: 09/26/02
Posts: 49
Loc: Brazil
Last seen: 3 years, 6 months
Re: you think you have free will but you dont. [Re: Rob_K]
    #1548993 - 05/14/03 06:16 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

I hate to be the one to de-intellectialize this thread but I think the argument is over complicated. Look at the facts: if I want to go into my yard and shout "Fuck!" I can do. If I want to drive to the coast and smoke a joint, I can do. I don't have to but I might feel like it. This is called free will.

if you go to your yard and shout "Fuck!" it's because you were supposed to. like, if you had your entire life played again you will shout fuck again!
and you think: "so i'm supposed to shout fuck in my yard then i won't do it, i have free will and choose not to shout."
so, dont you see, you were supposed to think and act to not shout.


Iouco's idea that "intelligence is a tool developed to be aware of our reaction" doesn't make sense either.. this means that we go through life aware of what we are doing but unable to control it. I'm sorry but I don't buy it.

see animals for example, they just react, they are pure living reactors, they dont question their existance, they're just there, eating, shitting, sleeping, etc.

we humans were like that too, but we developed a better brain, intelligence and rationality, BUT WE STILL REACT ! intelligence just make you construct a better reaction for you, but it's still a reaction.


personally, when i'm on LSD, often i realize what will happen in the future, i mean, not details and shit, but in general... some of my friends have the same shit.

once, when i'm talking to a big friend who was tripping too, i KNEW what he was going to say before he say it, and he had the same shit.. yes we could be just tripping out, but maybe we could 'see' the reaction before it happen.

yea sounds crazy but maybe i'm just too 'chapado'  :grin: 

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OfflineRob_K
s p a c e d

Registered: 03/23/03
Posts: 447
Loc: London
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Re: you think you have free will but you dont. [Re: louco]
    #1549115 - 05/14/03 07:20 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

It all comes down to what you believe really doesn't it? There's no answer to this question.. Personally, my response is that there is no pre-determined path- we live life in the moment and make the choices we do because we are granted the freedom to make those choices.

In the dictionary, "will" is defined as "The mental faculty by which one deliberately chooses or decides upon a course of action." The very concept of "will" is dependent on my ability to make choices. Saying I have no free will is to say that I don't have the ability to make a choice, when clearly I do every day.

I firmly believe that if space/time split into a tangent the second I was born, then the me in the parallel universe would be making different choices and living a different life, no matter how minute that difference is.

How about this.. if you believe in predeterminance, then it is simply predetermined that at any given time you will be exercising your free will.. the fact that it is predetermined does not mean it is not YOUR conscious choice. I guess this is just an idea, and like I say I don't believe in predeterminance anyway.


We could go round in circles..


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-{ divined from the mind }--

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Invisibletak_old
Endo Smoke

Registered: 05/31/02
Posts: 609
Loc: State of confusion
Re: you think you have free will but you dont. [Re: Rob_K]
    #1549957 - 05/15/03 12:44 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

I think our world is based on a bunch of rules. What we learn, what we see, hear, smell. Past experiences, people we know, who we feel we must impress, the fear of consquences. These things are based off our ego, wich society created. Inside us all is a true center, and i feel that it has a huge effect on your descisions in life. Some people see it, others dont. I think it all depends on who you are, and what your current possition in life is. I think it all depends on your beliefs also. If we are all a single being, and we are connected at every level possible, time having no play because every moment has happend at once... The idea of free will doesnt mean too much. I dunno.

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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: you think you have free will but you dont. [Re: Strumpling]
    #1550355 - 05/15/03 07:15 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

I don't know about the "pre-determined" part anymore, man..

I think it may be similar to how there is a type of equation that maps out the "wave function" of a quantum particle, which will tell you all the possible routes for the particle at a given point in time, but not specifically point out which one - it basically lays out the "rules" and the particle will take one of the routes that fit into this equation to its destination


your stoned rant was actually pretty good. :smile: I also look to quantum mechanics to try to explain free will/determinism. it's so much more interesting than the philosopical approach to the problem, which gets us nowhere :wink:. I'll say right now that I don't think we'll ever find a physical mechanism for free will, but we should be able to find a physical mechanism for determinism, because determinism is supposedly based on physical laws...  the problem is, some people are woefully behind on their knowledge of physics, they rely on predictable, safe Newtonian physics to try to explain EVERYTHING, including human behavior...  and Newtonian physics work, at the macro level and even at the cellular and molecular level, but if you really want to base a theory on the laws of the physical plane, you have to go deeper and try to understand the essense of things.

I doubt that quantum mechanics will ever be understood by the masses, but perhaps the most important thing, in this context, is that at that level, things aren't so "fixed"... we can't nail down the position of an electron as it "orbits" the atom, there are only tendencies, probabilities or "wave functions". the workings of quantum mechanics has been described as quantum "foam" by physicists - pure randomness. well, maybe not true randomness, but chaos - unpredictability, where a particle doesn't occupy a point in space, but it occupies a "field" with very fuzzy edges :wink:...  the more you study the physical world, the less "physical" it seems.

Either way, I don't know if quantum randomness is really "freedom" anyway, because that may imply that each particle has free-will

I don't think this has to imply that each particle has free-will. that would be like saying that our consciousness implies that individual brain cells also have consciousnes. quantum randomness doesn't prove free will, but it casts a lot of doubt on a predetermined world. Another possibility is that there really IS an Ultimate Physical Law unknown (unknowable?) to us, beyond Newtonian physics, beyond quantum mechanics and whatever comes next, where everything is fixed and predetermined...  this way, determinists can conveniently ignore the fact that current physical laws can't actually determine anything... but this bothers me for several reasons.. first, they have to take a huge leap of faith to believe that this actually exists, it's a bigger leap than the belief in free will, so I don't think any hard-core determinist would take this stand, and secondly, a predetermined universe where perfect laws exist would HAVE to be finite (in both size and scale), if you think about it... and I don't think that's the case...

Well, I think I'm getting closer to figuring this out... I have it in my mind but can't put it to words...
I was once on the fence on this subject, but the more I learned about the physical world, the more chaotic it seemed. I couldn't prove free will but I chose to believe it because it is what I experienced on a daily basis, and the fundamentals of determinism seemed flawed in its major assumptions. seemed illogical to me, but I guess everyone has to come to their own conclusions, although I have the suspicion that some determinists actually want to believe in determinism.

 

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OfflineVulture
Pursuer ofWisdom
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Registered: 06/18/02
Posts: 3,546
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Re: you think you have free will but you dont. [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1551671 - 05/15/03 03:43 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

if what you were sying is true then woudent identical twins be pretty much the same people?


i find that to be a bunch of bunk.....we are to a certain extent slaves of society but we still can make choices. Every person and there min are unique and even if they are raised the exact same and experience that exact same thigns they will in there own minds interpret them differently.


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Work like you dont need the money.

Love like you never been hurt.

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OfflineEvilGir
Im the on coming storm

Registered: 11/26/01
Posts: 1,301
Loc: Planet Irk
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
Re: you think you have free will but you dont. [Re: Vulture]
    #1554861 - 05/16/03 06:43 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

If free will truly exists, how come just like animials we as a species are predictable. Also what about fate isnt that predetermined our future.


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Fighting the man the best way I can.

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OfflineRob_K
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Registered: 03/23/03
Posts: 447
Loc: London
Last seen: 10 years, 3 months
Re: you think you have free will but you dont. [Re: EvilGir]
    #1554928 - 05/16/03 07:36 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

well that all depends if you believe in fate or not doesn't it?

and are we really that predictable? If you went back 100 years and said "guess what's going to happen next centuary" do you think they'd have any clue? I don't.


--------------------
-{ divined from the mind }--

My music

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