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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: The existence of Free Will is far from certain [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #6804736 -

MushmanTheManic said:
FrenchSocialist said:
it stars saddam said:
The moral implications of determinism are irrelevant anyway, as any argument from that angle would be an appeal to consequences.


Not really. Virtue ethics is not consequential yet is compatible with determinism.


I think he meant the argument that determinism would lead to a loss of responsibility is a fallacy - argument from consequences.


Yes, I apologize if that was unclear.

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Re: The existence of Free Will is far from certain [Re: FrenchSocialist]
    #6804738 -

Do you live in France or are you an immigrant?

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Re: The existence of Free Will is far from certain [Re: it stars saddam]
    #6804749 -

I don't answer France questions. ^_^


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"Both liberty and equality are among the primary goals pursued by human beings through many centuries; but total liberty for wolves is death to the lambs" -- Isaiah Berlin

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Re: The existence of Free Will is far from certain [Re: FrenchSocialist]
    #6804750 -

Damnit.

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Re: The existence of Free Will is far from certain [Re: it stars saddam]
    #6804755 -

I half believe in determinism but I like to argue things out to better understand them. And I must say I'm having a hard time keeping up my side of the argument. Anyways what's the point of arguing in favour of determinism anyway? and of believing in it? I think believing in free will is better if just for the fact that you feel you have some power over your destiny


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Re: The existence of Free Will is far from certain [Re: SampaJasli]
    #6804762 -

SampaJasli said:
Anyways what's the point of arguing in favour of determinism anyway? and of believing in it?


Defending truth and not believing in unrealistic concepts simply because they make people feel better.

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Re: The existence of Free Will is far from certain [Re: SampaJasli]
    #6804763 -

I think that even if we believe in determinism, because the illusion of consciousness constantly exists, it is hard to get away from. I don't think about determinism often, and even if it's true there is nothing especially you can do. It doesn't cause someone to just sit around and "go with the flow." It's just kinda a fact that you are aware of behind everything, but you don't pay attention to.

For me it is at least.


--------------------
Laugh and the world laughs with you.
Weep and you weep alone

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Re: The existence of Free Will is far from certain [Re: SampaJasli]
    #6804765 -

I think the illusion of free will is always going to be around. Determinism seems like something that can only be grasped intellectually. Everything seems as if your choosing your behavior freely, but you are not.

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Re: The existence of Free Will is far from certain [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #6804780 -

I don't really feel like determinism & free will would have to exclude each other.
Maybe in some cases we're just "driven" while in other cases we have the power to chose independently from what the odds would show.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: The existence of Free Will is far from certain [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #6804786 -

Look back at when you made one of your biggest mistakes in your life. One of the ones you really regret.

Then look back some more, and ask "If everything else was the exact same, and I didn't know about the consequenced, would I have still made the same choice." You would have. Every single time.


--------------------
Laugh and the world laughs with you.
Weep and you weep alone

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Re: The existence of Free Will is far from certain [Re: BrainChemicals]
    #6804800 -

BrainChemicals said:
I don't think about determinism often, and even if it's true there is nothing especially you can do. It doesn't cause someone to just sit around and "go with the flow." It's just kinda a fact that you are aware of behind everything, but you don't pay attention to.

For me it is at least.


I agree with you and feel the same way. I can't help but think though, that even if one believes in determinism, that they can't truly understand it and realize its implications.


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Edited by SampaJasli (04/18/07 02:55 PM)

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Re: The existence of Free Will is far from certain [Re: SampaJasli]
    #6805110 -

I see belief in free will as similar to belief in God, at first it may seem nearly impossible to imagine a universe without it, but after a while you get used to it and thinking the opposite becomes just as difficult.


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"Both liberty and equality are among the primary goals pursued by human beings through many centuries; but total liberty for wolves is death to the lambs" -- Isaiah Berlin

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Re: The existence of Free Will is far from certain [Re: FrenchSocialist]
    #6805131 -

FrenchSocialist said:
I see belief in free will as similar to belief in God, at first it may seem nearly impossible to imagine a universe without it, but after a while you get used to it and thinking the opposite becomes just as difficult.


And therefore the only sane choice is agnosticism :grin:

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Re: The existence of Free Will is far from certain [Re: daytripper23]
    #6805135 -

Eh, agnosticism has certain connotations I would rather avoid.


--------------------


"Both liberty and equality are among the primary goals pursued by human beings through many centuries; but total liberty for wolves is death to the lambs" -- Isaiah Berlin

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Re: The existence of Free Will is far from certain [Re: FrenchSocialist]
    #6805141 -

"fence sitter"

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Re: The existence of Free Will is far from certain [Re: FrenchSocialist]
    #6805150 -

FrenchSocialist said:
I see belief in free will as similar to belief in God, at first it may seem nearly impossible to imagine a universe without it, but after a while you get used to it and thinking the opposite becomes just as difficult.


From that point of view determinism takes all the attributions of God but has a differen name... isn't that somekind of contradiction in what you're saying?  :ooo:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: The existence of Free Will is far from certain [Re: it stars saddam]
    #6805152 -

hmmm yea it basically means you cant know anything for sure...

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Re: The existence of Free Will is far from certain [Re: daytripper23]
    #6805154 -

Quote:
And therefore the only sane choice is agnosticism :grin:


Wize words :thumbup:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: The existence of Free Will is far from certain [Re: daytripper23]
    #6805201 -

Quote:
We never thoroughly agreed on any subject but once and then we looked at each other and thought one of us must be very ill". In uncharacteristically bold discussions after dinner Darwin asked his guests "Why do you call yourselves Atheists?", saying that he preferred the word "Agnostic". Aveling replied that "Agnostic was but Atheist writ respectable, and Atheist was only Agnostic writ aggressive". Darwin responded "Why should you be so aggressive?". Freethought is "all very well" for the educated, he argued, but are ordinary people "ripe for it?"


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Darwin's_views_on_religion

I guess given that standard it comes down to whether or not you think ordinary people are ready for the word atheist. I suppose Huxley and Darwin didn't think so, hence the coining of the word agnostic. (BTW the link doesn't work because of the comma.)


--------------------


"Both liberty and equality are among the primary goals pursued by human beings through many centuries; but total liberty for wolves is death to the lambs" -- Isaiah Berlin

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Re: The existence of Free Will is far from certain [Re: FrenchSocialist]
    #6805208 -

Perhaps after nearly 150 years, ordinary people are "ripe for it," as is indicated by Richard Dawkins' The God Delusion staying consistently towards the top of the bestsellers list in the states.

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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