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Re: Are humans biological machines? [Re: ]
    #2479744 -

Hmm...good point. Thanks, Max.


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"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."

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Re: Are humans biological machines? [Re: Viaggio]
    #2528419 -

If anyone is interested in brain chemistry, here's an easy read.

http://www.mental-health-matters.com/articles/article.php?artID=160

Don't be lazy.  Click the link and read :smile:

How does someone find a genuine spiritual outlook when all outlooks are (mostly) determined by the balance of neurotransmitters?  Is there a difference between a prophet and a delusional man?  Eh...actually, I don't believe there is such thing as a prophet.

Blah, am I wasting my time by asking these questions?  I feel like I should already know that...I'll never know.  Fucking agnosticism...not the easiest path for someone trying to fill a void  :smirk:


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"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."

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Re: Are humans biological machines? [Re: Viaggio]
    #2528565 -

Our bodies are machines in which our minds (not our brains [amplifiers of thought]) control.

I speak from expirence. I was diagnosed to be chronically depressed and had an acute bipolar disorder and even shown signs of schizophrenia...lol. Then I realized that I didnt accept who I was, mentally. I compared myself to others thus, developing many psychological complexes within my ego. Upon a big mushroom trip, I learned to seperate the ego from true mind and I learned of the unnecessary functions of the ego that fuel downward spirals of consciousness. I still have my ego, but I am able to recognize THAT from who I AM and I do my best to seperate the two.

My peers have a hard time relating with me and thats ok as long as I and my friends understand this and attempt to keep things good and divine between each other. I'm not exactly a social butterfly and I dont speak much, but you know what? I've learned to genuinely love who I am and to have complete confidence in my actions and thoughts. My spirit has increased 10 fold within just months of this realization. I no longer expirence depression (yes I get down sometimes but its never longer than a day) and I frequently attempt to share with others that our lives are of the intricacy, beauty, and fragility of a single snowflake riding the breeze so that they too will find their own peaceful realizations in their Universe.


We are not machines. If you want I will offer you my scientific model (just my fancy word for thoughts)  on my theory of life? :smile:

Peace :smile:


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As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.

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Re: Are humans biological machines? [Re: psyka]
    #2528643 -

Yeah, separating the mind from the individual...I realize that must sound like a vague, fluffy statement. Nonetheless, it seems somewhat feasible. I think strict regimens of meditation (they way meditation was meant to be performed according to eastern monks) does offer a way to have more awareness (and thus control) of the mind. It's the constant practice of dismissing all thought. Not many understand what that truly means (I think I've had a glimpse once).

Perhaps, this practice (more like training?) of quieting the mind is a way of developing tolerance to the functions of some neurotransmitters?


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"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."

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Re: Are humans biological machines? [Re: Viaggio]
    #2528686 -

Are humans biological machines?
mu

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Re: Are humans biological machines? [Re: Viaggio]
    #2528703 -

What is the purpose of having those neurotransmitters in your brain in the first place? While you're at it tell me the nature of having unique intelligence, its purpose, and why the Universe (or rather my own personal opinion) deemed it a superior trait for evolution? (In terms of survival...I mean ants have a much more efficient lifestyle than humans as did dinosaurs).


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As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.

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Re: Are humans biological machines? [Re: psyka]
    #2528770 -

psyka said:
What is the purpose of having those neurotransmitters in your brain in the first place?


viaggio said:
If anyone is interested in brain chemistry, here's an easy read.
http://www.mental-health-matters.com/articles/article.php?artID=160
Don't be lazy.  Click the link and read :smile:


Quote:
While you're at it tell me the nature of having unique intelligence, its purpose, and why the Universe (or rather my own personal opinion) deemed it a superior trait for evolution?


Hmm, you're asking me as if I know?  Most of my posts are questions :smile:  And I'm not sure how your last question is related to this thread's topic.  What do you mean by nature of intelligence?


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"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."

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Re: Are humans biological machines? [Re: Viaggio]
    #2530619 -

i prefer the term 'organic robots'


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Re: Are humans biological machines? [Re: ]
    #2530813 -

When you begin to see your body as a machine and its responses to events as programs in the machine you are starting to view the Universe in a more balanced, objective way.

This is totally the other way around. Seeing your body as a machine and its responses to events as programs in the machine, is taking a certain very narrow perspective, not in the least objective. In fact it is as human as it gets and definetely not balanced.

If this is an "objective" view of the world, somehow beyond human interpretation, and we know it, then there should be a way to build an objective human detector. This is however far from feasible.

Who told you guys you've got it all figured out just by submiting to a mainstream scientific view?

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Re: Are humans biological machines? [Re: Swami]
    #2530875 -

Swami said:
Using your logic, your car must run on some mysterious spirit energy, because you do not know how to make gasoline and build an engine from scratch.


You can fill your car up with gas but it still won't start...theres a key element in  starting an engine. What is living matter's ignition and carbuerator?(or fuel injector  :grin:)

Anyways, I think our bodies and minds are bio machines and our brains are like very intricate bio computers. How could you not? You could think of thought patterns and instincts as programs and the actual chemicals and their reactions in the brain as like the biological operating system. Or something to that effect.

The difference is we think, we feel, and we dream. This fact alone could refute any idea of considering us  machine like. We are driven to survive and that is what evolution itself is all about. Our purpose is to exist and to survive, a  machine has a physical job of some sort.

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Re: Are humans biological machines? [Re: ]
    #2531017 -

Seems many here equate complexity with spirituality. A human is more spiritual than an amoeba because it is more complex. A human has trillions of cells compared to one, and a wider range of possible behaviours. An amoeba is perceived as more spiritual than a simple chemical reaction because an amoeba can perform countless chemical reactions.

Bottom line however, is that a chemical reaction in an amoeba or a human or a test tube using nearly identical elements and conditions will be indistinguishable. There is no "magical point" at which some "spirit energy" enters into it. One or two or a hundred chemical reactions is not spiritual, but a million chemical reactions IS somehow spiritual? Quantity and complexity are the ONLY differentiating factors.

There will come a time when man-made machines become so complex that they will be unable to be backward engineered. Will that then make them alive or imbued with magic merely because they cannot be understood at the macro level?A TV to a primitive that has not been exposed to the modern world is most certainly magic from his perspective.

Because we cannot fathom all of the workings of the human body, MUST we substitute some X force to replace our ignorance? Before germs were discovered, disease was perceived of as demons entering the body. Seems a variance of this paradigm still exists in the "modern" superstitious mind.


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The proof is in the pudding.

Edited by Swami (04/06/04 04:16 PM)

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Re: Are humans biological machines? [Re: Spokesman]
    #2531047 -

The difference is we think, we feel, and we dream.
Is there a difference between thinking and feeling? Both are easily influenced by brain chemistry factors.

Our purpose is to exist and to survive, a machine has a physical job of some sort.
Job and purpose, eh? Don't they seem to be similar in nature?


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"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."

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Re: Are humans biological machines? [Re: Spokesman]
    #2531050 -

Spokesman said:
So we're nothing but a buncha slimey robots that multiply themselves through chemical exchanges and consume resources around us at an alarming rate??? I dont think thats pessamistic i think thats just realistic. And it sure take alot of the pressure off. I rather just be an electricaly charged talking meatbag then a "soul" who has a "job" to do in order to get into "heaven" after it "dies."


I'm not sure if that was sarcasm, but life almost seems this way...minus this twinkle of hope inside me that hopes for more.  I don't know how I can tie this together, but I wondered about trendal's interesting  post regarding how reality seems to become more abstract and complex:

quantum world --> chemistry --> biology --> conciousness --> ?

I suppose maybe I need to understand that brain chemistry merely has an effect on conciousness?  I am not my brain, right?  Then I (maybe along with others) wondered...could ? = spirituality (or some other vague term)?

:lol:  Ugh...why do I even bother wondering about these kinda things?


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"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."

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Re: Are humans biological machines? [Re: Swami]
    #2531070 -

Swami said:
Seems many here equate complexity with spirituality. A human is more spiritual than an amoeba because it is more complex. A human has trillions of cells compared to one and a wider range of possible behaviours. An amoeba is perceived as more spiritual than a simple chemical reaction because an amoeba can perform countless chemical reactions.


I cannot completely disagree with this, but what I believe makes humans seem 'magical' is our ability to dream or have faith. Until somehow it is proven that other creatures share this ability we will be put on our own pedestal and viewed as more intelligent and 'magical'. If we do ever prove that another animal can dream than will we then begin to view animals as the same as we do ourselves?

Quote:
Bottom line however, is that a chemical reaction in an amoeba or a human or a test tube using nearly identical elements and conditions will be indistinguishable. There is no "magical point" at which some "spirit energy" enters into it. One or two or a hundred chemical reactions is not spiritual, but a million chemical reactions IS somehow spiritual? Quantity and complexity are the ONLY differentiating factors.


Hmm...I don't really know where all this quanitity and complexity talk is coming from but I do not believe those two factors are what makes us any more 'magical' than any other animal. I will agree that some people do believe humans are more spiritually competent beings because we are more complex.. however like I said before, until it is proven that animals can dream beyond the control of their instincts that humans will be viewed as different.

Quote:
There will come a time when human -made machines become so complex that they will be unable to be backward engineered. Will that then make them alive or imbued with magic merely because they cannot be understood at the macro level? A TV to a primitive to has not been exposed to the modern world is most certainly magic from his perspective.


I do not know if that day will come, besides, aren't you predicting too far in the future for your own tastes? Let's say for a second that someone came back from the future...and you were showed the time machine. Would you believe it's magical? Or would your current knowledge of technology lead you to believe it'd just too high tech for you to understand? A primitive person has never seen any kind of machine and knows nothing about technology that goes beyond what lives in the woods.

Quote:
Because we cannot fathom all of the workings of the human body, MUST we substitue some X force to replace our ignorance?


If we do not know what jump starts living matter than it IS some X force. Whether that force be some kind of reaction beyond the subatomic level or something thats present right under our noses we do not know. Therefore it is an X force.

Quote:
Before germs were discovered, disease was perceived of as demons entering the body. Seems a variance of this paradign still exists in the "modern" superstitious mind.


I guess that's your own opinion. My spiritual beliefs tie into science very well, its just science that we cannot comprehend just yet. You could say that mine and many other's beliefs seem more magical to you than they do me or someone else.

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Re: Are humans biological machines? [Re: Viaggio]
    #2531087 -

viaggio said:
Is there a difference between thinking and feeling? Both are easily influenced by brain chemistry factors.


You make a good point. Thoughts and feelings are so closely related and effect one another so much that they could be viewed as the same thing. When you feel that something bad might happen then you could say that you think something is about to happen.

However, there is a difference in the two. You can feel or sense things from your environment and these ultimately lead to your thoughts. Remember, our senses send impulses to our brains at the speed of light BUT since this is not a magickly done instant process, feelings come first and thoughts come second.

Quote:
Job and purpose, eh? Don't they seem to be similar in nature?


No. A job is one physical act. A purpose is a reason for being. You can say that a machine's purpose is to do its physical job, but you cannot do that with a human.

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Re: Are humans biological machines? [Re: Swami]
    #2531286 -

A human is more spiritual than an amoeba because it is more complex.
Well, I can see how the discussion steered this way. Now the concern seems to be related to consciousness.

There will come a time when human -made machines become so complex that they will be unable to be backward engineered.
That's somewhat of a bold prediction, Swami. We're working on hacking humans at the moment. Let's not jump the gun.

Will that then make them alive or imbued with magic merely because they cannot be understood at the macro level?
Good question. How do we determine what is genuinely spiritual and what isn't? Pff...unknown.

Because we cannot fathom all of the workings of the human body, MUST we substitue some X force to replace our ignorance?
As long as we understand it's a temporary variable...then why not? It seems like my means for finding a more firm understanding of life is sort of similar to the trial by error method.

Maybe I'm testing different variables to see what makes the equation less of a mystery? Hmm...why do I even think about things like this? Can the reason be traced back to biochemistry?


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"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."

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Re: Are humans biological machines? [Re: Viaggio]
    #2531902 -

jeeze, how many of you guys have had a Level 5 trip?

those who have would know that not only is the Body nothing more than a machine,
but the Persona, the ego, the "eye" is also merely a part of the apparatus.

and not only is the Human Body and Mind nothing more than a contraption,
but the entire Mechanism is on the fritz, in sleep mode...

the Self has fallen into a state of mis-identification and thinks it is the Machine.
this has given the machine the power to freely follow it's own destructive delusions.

the only power the Self has over the machine is the power of Awareness.
through practicing Awareness the Self may awaken the machine to it's true function,
and the Self can then use the Awakened machine as a transformational apparatus.

the whole point of the Self working w/ machines is for it's own evolution.

FMI: The Human Biological Machine As A Transformational Apparatus by E. J. Gold

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Re: Are humans biological machines? [Re: raytrace]
    #2532334 -

When you see the human body as a machine, you begin to see the difference between mind and body. When you begin to see the limitations of the body, because of its programming, you no longer have to associate with your body in order to learn. If you're strong-willed enough you can even reprogram some parts of your bodily instincts and functions, simply through the power of your mind. This applies especially to social behaviour.

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Re: Are humans biological machines? [Re: Viaggio]
    #2532384 -

As long as we understand it's a temporary variable...then why not?

Was the demonic explanantion of disease seen as temporary? No.

Did it help in the curing of the Plague or Black Death or the Pox? No.

Is the idea that life springs from some spirit force seen as a temporarary explanation? No.

Does saying that life originates from some spirit force help us to better understand or enable us to make predictions? No.

The life puzzle is not an algebraic equation where X = Y/Z and we are attempting to figure out what X is. I contend that X does not even exist. This is where I believe that most go wrong.

The thinking used to be that creating amino acids would be tantamount to creating life. A la the 1950s Urey/Miller experiemnt, amino acids = methane (CH4), ammonia (NH3), hydrogen (H2), and water (H2O) plus an energy source (electricity or lightning). This has also been discovered in action in deep ocean thermal vents.

Then it was discovered that a container or cell wall was needed. And we know that amino acids & proteins inside protected volumes will spontaneously form RNA. ("Production of RNA by ploymerase protein encapsulated within phospholipid vesicles"; A.C. Chakrabarti et al.; Journal of Molecular Evolution 39(6): 555-559; December 1994). Certain naturally-occuring and non-living fats were discovered that may act as the necessary container.

Because we are still a long way from forming a more complete understanding, magic is inserted as the major missing piece. This is the refuge of the superstitious mind.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Are humans biological machines? [Re: Swami]
    #2532568 -

In regards to Swami...You're argument with humans feeling more spiritual than amoebas is completely irrelevent. It's also an opinion. What is spirituality? Is it believing something? Oh...well, that kind of makes sense dont you think? We are capable of believing, while an amoeba is not. So we would be more spiritual.

Is your argument about us thinking that we have a soul and an amoeba not having one? Well not everyone believes that. Infact I think you are missing the bigger picture here. What everything is all about is incomprehensible even to the greatest philosophers. Sure...Humans and Amoebas are both biological machines.. but what are they driven by? Certainly nothing that we can figure out. So what do people do? They take the easy way out and assume we are nothing but non-living particles..that well, somehow create a lifeform? Your logic doesnt really add up too well if you ask me.

I thought I'd bring up an extremely complex thought I had my 2nd time doing acid a few weeks ago. It's tough to explain but I'll give an easy version of it..

I thought, ok our body undergoes chemical changes throughout the day according to psychology. We attach meaning to everything that happens within our brains. When the anxiety chemicals come into play. We simply attach meaning to it (school work, girlfriend..whatever). Same with "happy" chemicals. And just about all the information passing through each nueron..meaning is attached. But what exactly is attaching this meaning? The only answers I could come up with were free thought maybe, which is not explainable through biology. Maybe intuition..who knows. Give an answer, then ask where THAT comes from, then where THAT comes from. I gotta tell you, I went pretty deep, and unfortunatly i dont remember a lot of it.

I used to hate psychology because I thought it was just too much of a negative, atheist, and non-spiritual look on things. But I thought well maybe its right. Now I love it, because it really does give you some insight on what is going on. Everything that is explained..where thoughts come from...etc..is very interesting and then it all ends up stopping somewhere, somewhere that cant be explained. You act as if science and logic has proven there is no such thing as life, when infact there is a whole lot that we cant explain when it comes to life in this universe.

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