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Invisiblebuttonion
Calmly Watching

Registered: 04/04/02
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
Re: When Does Human Life Begin? [Re: ]
    #799623 - 08/06/02 10:11 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I appreciate your definition of ?human life? as useful, likely used by several biologists and other scientists. But Swami?s and Adamist?s responses are coming from an equally valid, but qualitatively different perspective on the idea of life (and ?things? in general). Apples and oranges really.


The reason I used the basketball analogy is because it destroys the misconception that just because a human cannot function as a human it is not human or a person.


This is just one example in which the English language places an adjective in front of a noun that denotes a similar thing, instead of coming up with a brand new noun. The ?flat basketball? retains some characteristics of the ?blown-up basketball,? enough so that we decide to say it is the same ?thing.? At what point does something cease to be a version of the original thing and become something entirely different?

What if I painted the ball blue? A ?painted basketball??
Punched a whole in the basketball? A ?basketball with a hole in it??
Melted the basketball (thanks Eightball)? A ?melted basketball??
Took all of the melted basketball goo and used it to make a child?s toy? A ?remolded basketball shaped in the form of a train??
What if I vaporized the rubber? you get my point?


The answer to my above question is that the ?sufficient amount of change? point at which we decide to create a new category of a thing is essentially arbitrary, likely dependent on how humans perceive and what culture has told him.

To delineate when life begins and ends is equally arbitrary (just like the recognition of any chunk of reality as a ?thing? is). You have chosen ?the formation of the zygote? as the beginning of life, when the genetic material from both parents has combined. And you say that from this point until death, there is a human life. Why not chop this into pieces too? Characteristics of the developing organism are constantly changing- size, shape, brain development, genitalia- does this not suffice to create more categories (?a deer fetus is still a deer)?? How about when there is a fully functional nervous system?

Or maybe we should broaden the definition. When mom and dad had intercourse. When mom knew for sure that she wanted a baby when she got older. When her mother gave her a dollar for doing the dishes, which in turn led to ?etc.

And so I hope it is clear that looking at human life with an appreciation for the arbitrary delineation of chunks of perception into "things" and the infinite amount of conditions that must be in place for the ?thing? to ?exist,? is not the result of fuzzy logic, but is an equally valid (and I would say more accurate) way to answer such a question.


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Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
Re: When Does Human Life Begin? [Re: mr freedom]
    #800102 - 08/06/02 02:34 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

mrfreedom writes:

When the infant, can and does survive outside of the womb without the benefit of life support devices.

This is far and away the best "legal" definition I have seen in this thread.

The question as it is phrased is sufficiently vague to permit a broad spectrum of answers to be "correct".

The problem is that there is no supplied definition of "human". Clearly a zygote is not a human. It is (if all goes well) at best a potential human. Clearly a three year old infant IS a human. Arguably, (depending on which definition is agreed upon) a neonate is not yet a human. Certainly many cultures believed (and still believe) this to be the case.

Some thoughtful answers, but it surprises me mightily that I am the first to ask for a definition of "human". Without such a definition, the opinions are worthless, since there is no way of telling if we are all addressing the same question.

pinky



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Anonymous

Re: When Does Human Life Begin? [Re: buttonion]
    #800301 - 08/06/02 04:25 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Are you conscious?

This is not a rhetorical question.

Please tell me so I may improve.


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Anonymous

Re: When Does Human Life Begin? [Re: Phred]
    #800330 - 08/06/02 04:41 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Heritage House Dictionary:

human being n. 1. A member of the genus Homo and especially of the species H. sapiens. 2. A person: a fine human being.

Taken from a standard Internet source, Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary:

human being n. 1. A member of the genus Homo and especially of the species H. sapiens. 2. A person: a fine human being.

Dictionary.com:

hu?man Pronunciation Key (hymn)
n. A member of the genus Homo and especially of the species H. sapiens.
A person: the extraordinary humans who explored Antarctica.

http://www.biology-online.org/dictionary.asp :

Zygote

The fusion of two haploid gametes with the consequential creation of a diploid zygote cell, which can raplidy multiply after this fertilisation of fusion of genetic material occurs.

etc, etc, and of course et cetera

Modern biology says you have the wrong answer.

Cheers,



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Invisiblebuttonion
Calmly Watching

Registered: 04/04/02
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
Re: When Does Human Life Begin? [Re: ]
    #800409 - 08/06/02 05:13 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

If by this you mean am I self-aware, aware of objects external to my ?self?, experience a continuity of time passage, have memory, a sense of experienced freewill, then just as ?orange? is useful to describe a basketball, I agree that ?conscious? is useful to describe my organism.

(that is an ambiguous word you know).


--------------------
Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein


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Anonymous

Re: When Does Human Life Begin? [Re: buttonion]
    #800450 - 08/06/02 05:30 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

So you recognize the distinction between yourself and me?

How important is that distinction?


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Offlinemr freedom
enthusiast
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 232
Last seen: 16 years, 4 months
Re: When Does Human Life Begin? [Re: ]
    #800786 - 08/06/02 07:51 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Mr. Mushrooms and Pinky, I believe that, between both of you, we might have an area for intelligent dialouge. I do believe that we will need EVOLVING'S help though. Let me demonstrate with a few definitions and see where we can take it. The original question was:
"When do you think that human life begins and why? "

The biological definition of homosapiens is catagorical in nature. Meaning, that homosapien is the catagory to which humans belong, "To be human is identifiable by species (homo sapien) and genetic code". When one says "human" I think that we can all agree to what particular species we are refering; namely all of us having this little discussion. (please, no witty comments from the children). Two cells, a sperm and an ova, donated (in whatever way one wishes to donate them, upside down, manualy, assisted manual, automatic; you get the picture), from humans and implanted into a human female uterus(by whatever means), will, given no complications, produce a human offspring; we are not talking about frogs.

The second term in question would be "life". It is this term that needs clarification. It is a daunting term. There are a myriad of legal, ethical, religious, philosophical, and biological definitions to this term; but, NO concensous. Is life a continuum? Does life necessitate an understanding of reality; meaning must one be aware of ones surroundings? Does life have a differention from living? For example, I am alive, my heart beats and my lungs and digestive system function without the aid of machines. I am confined to a wheel chair and have no independant movement at all; am I alive or am I an organ donor in denial? It is to this second term that I would ask EVOLVING for clarification. Only the original poster can answer what is meant by life. Yes, I have a definition of life, but I choose to wait for Evolvings response.

Third term: begins. This would indicate an assumption that the poster does not beleive that life is a continuum. More to the point, that there is a precise moment in time that life "begins". Again, taking Pinkys suggestion, I would ask for clarification before truly making this assumption.

Now, to my own interpertation of the question. I believe that we are not talking about the biological definition of life, nor of human for that matter. I believe that the question holds an underlying moral dillema. That dillema being, at what point in time do we, society or the individual, afford a new life the same rights that we, as well developed humans, share. (I, of course, will limit my assumptions of "rights" to the THEORETICAL rights, guaranteed by the constitution of the United States).

Now, if this is an inaccurate interpertation, I expect the original poster to correct me post haste.

I look forward to this argument. I know Evolvings stance on the "a" issue, and, that question has been eliminated from the argument quite well.

Of course, if I am completely, totaly off-base then my original definition of the begining of human life stands and I will profer the second half of the question at a later time; the "why" part.


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: When Does Human Life Begin? [Re: mr freedom]
    #800934 - 08/06/02 09:08 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

God damn, that was a thorough post. Nice.

I personally think that pinpointing exactly what 'life' means is impossible. The word itself is, at the root, merely an arbitrary construct... a hand-me-down concept that doesn't jive well with reduction. I've been arguing this for awhile now (with myself, friends, colleagues, teachers, etc.)- I'm at a loss for words, literally. I think a new language will be necessary within the next millenium.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Anonymous

Re: When Does Human Life Begin? [Re: mr freedom]
    #801371 - 08/07/02 03:45 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Evolving's original post indicated that the proper context for the answer was to be found in biology which is why I frame my answer the way I do. To answer outside the context is to miss the point or engage in ignoratio elenchi, a logical fallacy.

The moral, religious, and legal aspects spin off of the biological definition which is nothing unusual as scientific truths do impinge upon those areas as a matter of course. Here's a few examples:

When a religious text makes a descriptive truth claim and then science shows that the claim is false we are compelled to reinterpret the truth claim in the light of the scientific fact such as, "The world is flat". If a religious text were to proclaim that we would say the the text is wrong.

Philosophy itself has had to yield to the findings of science as well.

Every discipline has to acknowledge the existence of truth that has been verified empirically. That is the way it is and there is no changing that unless a person wishes to remain illogical and live in a land of fantasy.

In the United States one of our first documents was the Declaration of Independence. In that document the Founding Fathers wrote that life, ie Human Life, was an inalienable right, guaranteed and given by God and that NO STATE, POLITICAL ENTITY, KINGDOM, OR WHATEVER had or has the right to disenfranchise a person of that right.

I get nervous when I hear people talk about when life begins because in the background lurks the idea that we can take a human life and say we have not killed a human being.

We all know the backdrop in this post is the idea that SCOTUS came up with when it decided that a human might be human but not a person. But that is off topic as Evolving did not directly ask that question.

Hitler (yeah, I know Sclorch will love the reference) and the Nazi's decided that certain persons weren't human and so did the United States with the Native Americans and Negroes. No law created to strip humans of their inalienable rights can or could ever be moral to me.

In the meantime I am waiting for an answer to my questions from Buttonion. I want to see where that line of questioning will lead.

Thank you for your compliment.

Cheers,


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Invisiblebuttonion
Calmly Watching

Registered: 04/04/02
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
Re: When Does Human Life Begin? [Re: ]
    #801537 - 08/07/02 06:23 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

So you recognize the distinction between yourself and me?

I acknowledge a distinction between my hand and my arm because drawing a line between them is useful: I can tell my doctor where the pain is or explain to another person where a glove should be placed. It is useful. Similarly, it is useful to continue to acknowledge a distinction between you and I.


How important is that distinction?

In order for us to continue to converse and function in society, it is very important.

But keep in mind, these distinctions I acknowledge are out of convention. I, and most others, use the ?static things exist? assumption as my default way of apprehending nature, while I strive to keep in the back of my head that this is not necessarily the ?real state of affairs.? I also acknowledge your definition of human life as useful, but, like other things, merely an arbitrary delineation of a chunk of reality.


--------------------
Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein


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Anonymous

Re: When Does Human Life Begin? [Re: buttonion]
    #801647 - 08/07/02 07:16 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Is pragmatism the only reason to ackknowledge "arbitrary" distinctions?

But keep in mind, these distinctions I acknowledge are out of convention. I, and most others, use the &#8220;static things exist&#8221; assumption as my default way of apprehending nature, while I strive to keep in the back of my head that this is not necessarily the &#8220;real state of affairs.&#8221; I also acknowledge your definition of human life as useful, but, like other things, merely an arbitrary delineation of a chunk of reality.

How do you know that the distinctions are merely formed out of convention?

How do you know this is not the "real state of affairs"?

Are all perceptions arbitrary?


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: When Does Human Life Begin? [Re: ]
    #801693 - 08/07/02 07:43 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

How do you know that the distinctions are merely formed out of convention?
How do you know this is not the "real state of affairs"?


Let's take the case of the hand and the arm. Most people will contend that there is such a thing as a hand and I will contend that there is NOT. That it is merely a lingustic convention ("the map is not the territory").

A hand, the flesh and blood, skin and muscle cannot be separated from its function. Remove it from the arm (at some arbitrary point) and it is a lifeless lump that can no longer grasp objects.

Even disregarding function (which I cannot, but you might make a case for it) ask 100 medical experts to show where the hand ends and it will be impossible to get agreement. The best they will be able to do is point on a skeleton where the metacarpal bones end. However the tendons go all the way to the elbow and the skin and blood are part of the continuum known as the human body.



--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Edited by Swami (08/07/02 03:52 PM)


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OfflineChikhai
member
Registered: 05/01/02
Posts: 110
Loc: Florida
Last seen: 18 years, 11 months
Re: When Does Human Life Begin? [Re: ]
    #801897 - 08/07/02 09:26 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

This may have already been mentioned but the Pineal Gland is formed 49 days after the planting of the seed if you will. The Pineal gland, which creates N,N,DMT, is unique in that it is not composed of brain tissue yet sits right smack in the middle of everything that makes us, us. Also, 49 days is when the sex organs first start to appear. The bible makes makes numerous references to 7 x 7. I believe this is a basic Buddhist belief also.

Why this matters? DMT is unleashed during very "psychedelic" moments of one's life including death and birth. I'd find it strange for it to be just a coincidence..


--------------------
"I see!" said the blind man to his deaf wife.


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Anonymous

Re: When Does Human Life Begin? [Re: Swami]
    #801902 - 08/07/02 09:27 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

i don't necessarily believe in a soul.

i don't believe that DMT is a channel for the soul.

i don't believe that the question is important, because for most people human life NEVER begins, they remain vegative organic growths for the whole of thier existence.

if the question is important it should be broken down into addressable questions. your question is too broad. some of these questions would be...

1) how do you define human life? is human life anything with a certain DNA pattern? or are other factors important? is the term "human" even useful? maybe sentience would be a better litmus test for measuring the value of a life form.

2) is consciousness an important part of being human? if it is then you have to answer a whole slew of other questions like ... are animals conscious? how conscious do you have to be to be human? what types of consciousness?

3) at what point does a life form attain the attributes of sentience? how can this be determined? is classifying things as human arbitrary?

just some thoughts.


Edited by vaporbrains (08/07/02 09:42 AM)


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Anonymous

Re: When Does Human Life Begin? [Re: Swami]
    #802210 - 08/07/02 11:57 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I agree that the hand/arm analogy is a good analogy of where an arbitrary distinction can be drawn but that is not to say that all distinctions are arbitrary. In cases of individual life/death and inorganic/organic not only are the distinctions more than arbitrary they are foundational to our understanding of the world.

However, with all that said, Buttonion may be on to something. I will wait for his answer before I refine everything I have ever learned about the universe and the way it exists. In the meantime I want to see how far down the gard... erm, I mean where our dialectic will take us.

Cheers,


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InvisibleMystical_Craven
mentally illpsychonaught

Registered: 06/16/02
Posts: 439
Loc: Earth
Re: When Does Human Life Begin? [Re: ]
    #802411 - 08/07/02 01:37 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Interresting post vaporbrains...almost forces one to reconsider their stance. Perhaps there is far more to the question then what is apparent on the surface. Maybe I should start looking deeper into these things before I just blurt out whatever answer seems fitting at the moment.

Or, maybe I should just stop trying to classify things and learn to accept them 'as is' without concerning myself with all the 'why's of the world.


--------------------


"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go..." T.S. Eliot


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Invisiblebuttonion
Calmly Watching

Registered: 04/04/02
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
Re: When Does Human Life Begin? [Re: ]
    #802430 - 08/07/02 01:51 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

(My brain hurts, but I am getting a lot out of this)


Is pragmatism the only reason to ackknowledge "arbitrary" distinctions?

How do you know that the distinctions are merely formed out of convention?


How do you know this is not the "real state of affairs"?


I hope this clarifies my position. Everything that we acknowledge as a thing is ultimately dependent on a countless number of conditions for its ?existence.? The herb in my window is as it is because of the sun, the nutritious soil, water, the humidity in the air, my desire to have it there, the way my parents brought me up to appreciate plant life, my parents good health, the meeting of my wife and her subtle encouragement to pursue a childhood hobby, my parents first date, the cooperative coexistence of the millions of cells that comprise the plant, the evolutionary pressures that led to this breed, and finally gravity and the speed of light. All of these conditions and infinitely many more had to happen for there to be the herb currently sitting in my window. This is the same with all ?things?- any ?thing? you can think of is dependent on an infinite amount of conditions. In other words, all existence, without exception, is entirely contingent- no inherent, by itself existence, but, contingent, dependent existence.

And so ?existence? begins to take on an entirely new meaning. When the conditions change, my plant changes. Although it makes sense to say that ?it changes?, there is in reality no ?it? to change, for when my plant has become compost, where is the ?it? which was the plant? Where is the fist when I open my hand? Where is the basketball that has been vaporized into the air? We refer to ?it? as ?it? because it is useful- we note a relatively stable chunk of perception that we have a need to refer to from time to time, and so it gets a label. But as Swami said, ?the map is not the territory.? These nouns we throw around are useful ways for our organism to achieve some satisfactory understanding of the Tao (I am really liking that word lately, better than ?objective reality?).




In cases of individual life/death and inorganic/organic not only are the distinctions more than arbitrary they are foundational to our understanding of the world.

How is this any less arbitrary than any other distinction that is made? (my turn for questions)


--------------------
Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein


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Anonymous

Re: When Does Human Life Begin? [Re: buttonion]
    #802995 - 08/07/02 06:07 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I am glad you are getting a lot out of this and I enjoy our little dialectic for similar reasons.

Yes, that clarifies things quite a bit.

What you said is like the Cosmological Argument for the existence of God brought forth by Aquinas in the 13th century.

1. Every being (that exists or ever did exist) is either a dependent being or a self-existent being.

2. Not every being can be a dependent being. Therefore,

3. There exists a self-existent being.

Note that the argument is valid or sound but it can be refuted. The way to unravel that argument is with the Principle of Sufficient Reason (PSR). PSR states, "There must be an explanation (a) of the existence of any being, and (b) of any positive fact whatsoever.

To explain how that is used to nullify the proposition would take too much time and is, off topic.

The bulk of your post does clarify your position but it does not answer my questions. At least, with the kind of sufficiency that I was looking for.

So with that in mind would you mind answering those questions before I attempt to answer yours? You merely turned my question around and asked me the same question. I want to hear your answer before I go any further.

BTW, I really appreciate your engagement in this dialectic. It is a joy to read your posts.

Yours,


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Offlinemr freedom
enthusiast
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 232
Last seen: 16 years, 4 months
Re: When Does Human Life Begin? [Re: ]
    #803107 - 08/07/02 07:04 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Very well, I'll concede that my second interpretation was incorrect.
You actually haven't answered the question yet. You have mearly hinted that the answer lies in a biological definition without giving that definition.

I think, that "human" should be a no-brainer; like I said, we aren't dealing with frogs here.

The definition of "life" is quite different and I think it requires more analysis.

Let's also not forget, Evolving did set the parameters of this exercise,( thanks for reminding me by the way). One of those parameters was, define the "beginning" of human life. This would entail some additional areas of science, philosophy and/ or legality to look for those definitions.


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
Re: When Does Human Life Begin? [Re: ]
    #803280 - 08/07/02 08:37 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Mr_Mushrooms writes:

Modern biology says you have the wrong answer.

Not so. Modern biology does not call a fertilized frog egg a frog. A frog zygote is just that -- a frog zygote. At least, every biologist I've encountered describes it as such, and thinks of it as such.

pinky


--------------------


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