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OfflineParadox
Stranger
Registered: 10/21/02
Posts: 15
Last seen: 13 years, 8 months
At what point could a machine recognize it exists?
    #1253462 - 01/27/03 02:13 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

If descartes theorum of "I think therefore I am" not taken to be absolute, what would be considered a concrete piece of evidence for a machine's recognition of its own existance?



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OfflineParadox
Stranger
Registered: 10/21/02
Posts: 15
Last seen: 13 years, 8 months
Re: At what point could a machine recognize it exists? [Re: Paradox]
    #1253474 - 01/27/03 02:17 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Mr. Mushrooms, I'm looking at you!  :grin: 


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: At what point could a machine recognize it exists? [Re: Paradox]
    #1253500 - 01/27/03 02:24 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

I'll answer with a question:
what would be considered a concrete piece of evidence for a man's recognition of his own existence?

why should the standard be any different for a machine?


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Invisiblexnevermore
? Ω?

Registered: 03/10/02
Posts: 282
Loc: The Twilight Zone
Re: At what point could a machine recognize it exists? [Re: Paradox]
    #1253640 - 01/27/03 03:09 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

if (1)
{
print "I exist";
}


--------------------
- xnevermore


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OfflineParadox
Stranger
Registered: 10/21/02
Posts: 15
Last seen: 13 years, 8 months
Re: At what point could a machine recognize it exists? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1253690 - 01/27/03 03:24 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Very true, but how does one measure self-awareness for humans? I used the example of machines as to try and avoid any bias, and remain as neutral as possible.


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Anonymous

Re: At what point could a machine recognize it exists? [Re: Paradox]
    #1253859 - 01/27/03 04:31 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Mr. Mushrooms, I'm looking at you!  :grin: 




I have to have my hand raised for you to call on me! :tongue:


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OfflineMurex
Reality Hacker

Registered: 07/28/02
Posts: 3,599
Loc: Traped in a shell.
Last seen: 9 years, 7 months
Re: At what point could a machine recognize it exists? [Re: Paradox]
    #1254064 - 01/27/03 05:45 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

If descartes theorum of "I think therefore I am" not taken to be absolute, what would be considered a concrete piece of evidence for a machine's recognition of its own existance?

It all depends. Do you mean like equal to a human? Cauze I'm sure bugs and stuff think on a different level, but still think for themselves (for the most part). It's a hard question to answer because I think it can't be totally yes or no.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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Offlinerommstein2001
Rise ye Must!
 User Gallery

Registered: 05/10/01
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Re: At what point could a machine recognize it exists? [Re: xnevermore]
    #1254087 - 01/27/03 05:54 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Well a computer has reasoning power... and it has obviously computing power... Maybe it already does.
By the way, did you know that some scientists believe that if the brain were a computer the harddrive would be only 4 gigs?


--------------------



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Offlinerecalcitrant
My Own God

Registered: 04/20/02
Posts: 2,927
Loc: Canada West
Last seen: 11 months, 9 days
Re: At what point could a machine recognize it exists? [Re: rommstein2001]
    #1254494 - 01/28/03 07:32 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

icant believe that at all.

we must have a way of storing information way diferent than binary then, because i can remember a shitload more information than 4gigs worth of .avi... I can remember alot. and what about ppl with photographic memories? they can remember entire libraries of books!


--------------------

We have to answer our own prayers


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Offlinefastest gun in the west
demon with aglass hand

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 4
Loc: canada
Last seen: 14 years, 2 months
can't comprehend [Re: recalcitrant]
    #1254651 - 01/28/03 08:25 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

In order for us to design any type of machine or computer that has "artificial intelligence" we would first have to understand more about our own minds, something we have not even begun to scratch the surface of.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: can't comprehend [Re: fastest gun in the west]
    #1254744 - 01/28/03 08:53 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Specific purpose computers & software (AI) have already been designed based on human thinking. The most famous is "Deep Blue", the computer that easily dismantled Kasparov, the world chess champion.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineJackal
Well Versed In Etiquette
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Re: At what point could a machine recognize it exists? [Re: Paradox]
    #1254754 - 01/28/03 08:55 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

At what point could a machine recognize it exists?



When its calculations per second matches that of a human brain!


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OfflineMAIA
World-BridgerKartikeya (DftS)
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Last seen: 10 months, 21 days
Re: At what point could a machine recognize it exists? [Re: Paradox]
    #1254800 - 01/28/03 09:10 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

If descartes theorum of "I think therefore I am" not taken to be absolute, what would be considered a concrete piece of evidence for a machine's recognition of its own existance?




A machine does not think, it computes. It gives answers after something or someone triggers a question, it only reacts.
It can only be considered "thinking" when a determined reaction is set with no question and no answer needed, wich is an action not a reaction.
So, a machine will only know it exists when it can make questions and give answers without any external trigger or will, it would be awared of that external trigger but it would create their own triggers, recreating itself by being awared of its indivual power.

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


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Invisiblethe_Landotter
Gnostic Chaoist

Registered: 05/24/02
Posts: 340
Loc: R'lyeh
Re: At what point could a machine recognize it exists? [Re: recalcitrant]
    #1254873 - 01/28/03 09:34 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

icant believe that at all.

we must have a way of storing information way diferent than binary then, because i can remember a shitload more information than 4gigs worth of .avi... I can remember alot. and what about ppl with photographic memories? they can remember entire libraries of books! 




Two words: Holographic Memory.

Brain as mind/body interface, the physical brain being only the condensation of the higher order system that is Mind.

The Whole is within the Parts.

And vice versa.

I clench my hand into a fist; Mind over Matter in its most obvious form.  The "how" of it can be explained to the firing of the smallest neuron, to the merest flicker of chemical interchange.

The "why" of it is a different matter altogether.

Put that in yer pipe and smoke it!  :tongue: 


--------------------
* * * * * * * * * *
Read the Landotter's Mystical Journey Journal


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InvisibleUlysees
Power of Lard

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 5,060
Re: At what point could a machine recognize it exists? [Re: Paradox]
    #1256916 - 01/28/03 10:04 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

It all depends on how one decides to qualify the ability to recognize one's existance. Everything, including ourselves, is simply a system functioning within a system. The existence of the internal system is dependant on the external system, and so on, so that all systems function in unison. Therefor, there is a conceivable manifestation of this whole, the sum of all parts, an ever changing ubiquitous presence.

I apologize if is this somewhat nonsensical, off topic, and for any errors due to Language. I'm quite dissociated right now, and though the thought process is very clear, the symbols become hard to arrange, and it's hard to remember complex thought programs.

You should definately read Ray Kurzweil's, *The Age of Spiritual Machines.*


--------------------


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OfflineEvilGir
Im the on coming storm

Registered: 11/26/01
Posts: 1,301
Loc: Planet Irk
Last seen: 10 months, 20 days
Re: At what point could a machine recognize it exists? [Re: Ulysees]
    #1257039 - 01/29/03 12:08 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Well it depends on the machine like todays computer wouldn't be able to think for them selfs because of the way they are constructed. We can give the computer a sensors so it can track and listen to what we say. This means it could open doors or play music just by talking to it, but it still dosent under stand all it knows is :

If Sound sensor detects voice then
goto voice

{voice}
If voice = "play music" then PLAY MUSIC

We could even program it to be more complex than this but to truley understand and become conscious it must have a system that makes a decesion before the computer is aware of it and the only way this could be done is with some type of quantom computer or biological based computer. It would also need a group of complex systems within a system that all rely on each other that are altered by external stimuli.

They woud also need to be a way for the system to reconfigure its own systems as well so if a system goes down then it should be able to automaticaly rewire and bypass the damaged system to some extent. But most importantly it must have the ability to learn.



--------------------
Fighting the man the best way I can.


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