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OfflinePhluck
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Free will is bullshit.
    #2025307 - 10/20/03 01:30 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

At any given time, you have millions of options. You could stand up right now, run around the room three times, while yodeling. Or maybe you could strangle yourself with the mouse cord. Or you could try eating a diskette.

Will you make these choices? Probably not.

When you're faced with an imminant decision, "do you want to go to the party or not?", you'll make a choice there based on how you feel about parties, how you feel about the people at the party, and how you feel at the moment. If we could press a rewind button on life, go back in time, and repeat that moment with every minute variable identical, would your decision ever vary? If it would, why?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibleTODAY
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Registered: 09/25/03
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Phluck]
    #2025321 - 10/20/03 01:34 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

nobody will ever know. i think about that stuff all the time though too. like, what would have happened if i chose the other path. i can't think of a good example right now but i have the feeling in mind.


--------------------

ca'rouse (k-rouz)
intr.v.
To engage in boisterous, drunken merrymaking.


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Offlinemanna_man
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Phluck]
    #2025337 - 10/20/03 01:38 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Right, the choices we make are related to how we were influenced in the past. Our environment shapes our behaviour, and thus the decisions we make. Even if you were to strangle yourself by whatever means, there would have to existed some outside force that compells you to do so. If we were to live our past exactly the same way, there would be no difference in our decisions. However,if you were to alter the past in the slightest way, it could have drastic influences in the future.


--------------------
This post is protected under copyrite law.All above content is strictly the property of ?manna_man.Any infringement of copyright property is strictly prohibited.Any violators will be stretched, shot, and then vaporized into a state of anti-matter, where they will cease to exist.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: TODAY]
    #2025347 - 10/20/03 01:40 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

> If we could press a rewind button on life, go back in time, and repeat that moment with every minute variable identical, would your decision ever vary?

I have often wondered if the universe isn't a set of simultanious equations. There would be infinite possiblities, but only one solution... which happens to be the one that everybody is living. If we were to try and rewind the tape going back in time, the equations would still be the same, thus the outcome couldn't change.



--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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Offlinesirreal
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Phluck]
    #2025356 - 10/20/03 01:43 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Phluck said:
At any given time, you have millions of options. You could stand up right now, run around the room three times, while yodeling. Or maybe you could strangle yourself with the mouse cord. Or you could try eating a diskette.

Will you make these choices?





You talked me into it! I am running around the room with the mouse cord around my neck as I type. I am yodeling also.


--------------------
I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Phluck]
    #2025371 - 10/20/03 01:47 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Phluck said:
If we could press a rewind button on life, go back in time, and repeat that moment with every minute variable identical, would your decision ever vary? If it would, why?




You obviously never make rash decisions. I'm a chaotic mind, sometimes I do stuff without a reason. However, we do have free will, the conditioning factors you speak of just limit the likelyhood of the choice.
If there's two slices of pizza left for me and a buddy, at times I'll take the bigger piece, other times the smaller piece, and if repeated the choice would be entirely random. If I had to repeat the same choice with identical conditions a hundred times, there would be no pattern.


--------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


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InvisibleTODAY
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Registered: 09/25/03
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: sirreal]
    #2025376 - 10/20/03 01:48 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

and a diskette in your mouth.


--------------------

ca'rouse (k-rouz)
intr.v.
To engage in boisterous, drunken merrymaking.


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Offlinesirreal
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Alan Stone]
    #2025380 - 10/20/03 01:50 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Alan Stone said:
Quote:

Phluck said:
I'm a chaotic mind, sometimes I do stuff without a reason. However, we do have free will, the conditioning factors you speak of just limit the likelyhood of the choice.
If there's two slices of pizza left for me and a buddy, at times I'll take the bigger piece, other times the smaller piece, and if repeated the choice would be entirely random.




Sometimes  :lol: 


--------------------
I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


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Offlinesirreal
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: TODAY]
    #2025390 - 10/20/03 01:52 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

TODAY said:
and a diskette in your mouth. 





I cannot yodel and eat a diskette at the same time. Sorry. :tongue: 


--------------------
I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Alan Stone]
    #2025391 - 10/20/03 01:53 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

"I'm a chaotic mind, sometimes I do stuff without a reason."

Without a _concious_ reason, or without any reason?
Just because you don't understand why you're doing something doesn't mean that your actions were, in fact, random. If they were random, is randomness free will?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: TODAY]
    #2025400 - 10/20/03 01:54 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

"nobody will ever know."

What I'm saying is, the very idea of free will makes no sense. It is an illusion that our minds create.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Offlinemanna_man
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Registered: 06/10/03
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Seuss]
    #2025404 - 10/20/03 01:54 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

"If we were to try and rewind the tape going back in time, the equations would still be the same, thus the outcome couldn't change."

wouldnt this contradict the universal law of cause and effect? Change the cause of something, you will ultimately change the effect, no?
If our life could be compared to the mathematical calculation of 1 + 2 = 3, with one plus two being the cause and the sum 3, being the effect. Change the 1 or 2 and you will undoubtedly have a different answer. I don't see how altering one variable cannot have an affecr on the outcome. To think so defies simple logic.


--------------------
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Offlinesirreal
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Alan Stone]
    #2025441 - 10/20/03 02:11 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Alan Stone said:

If there's two slices of pizza left for me and a buddy, at times I'll take the bigger piece, other times the smaller piece, and if repeated the choice would be entirely random. If I had to repeat the same choice with identical conditions a hundred times, there would be no pattern.





I guess it depends on who bought the pizza.


--------------------
I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


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Invisiblebandaid
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Registered: 05/14/03
Posts: 340
Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: manna_man]
    #2025454 - 10/20/03 02:16 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I dont consider it bullshit, I dont really agree with the idea either that we'll never know, I agree with that I DONT know if I'll ever know, I do agree with that I dont know now in my present mentality, I DO know that I feel and "think", but take that last sentence with a grain of the salt.. the "I" part, I do not know what "I" is, and I dont know like so many other ppl that what we consider "consciouseness" gives you free will, you may be aware of your environment but that doesnt mean you controle it, and it gets very messy when you consider exactly what IS controle, you can controle that rock in your environment, you can smash it/paint it/move it, but what about it dissapearing? or turning into an orange

like so many other conversations about god and free will, I find them interesting but most of the time I find them useless

ppl just go in circles with different philosophical arguments and it never ends :shake:, atleast it makes "good" conversation :grin:


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Offlinemanna_man
High onlife.....andcrack

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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: bandaid]
    #2025466 - 10/20/03 02:20 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

"ppl just go in circles with different philosophical arguments and it never ends , atleast it makes "good" conversation"

haha, welcome to philosophy, where the arguments only create more arguments and there is never a definite solution.


--------------------
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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Phluck]
    #2025467 - 10/20/03 02:20 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Phluck said:
Without a _concious_ reason, or without any reason?
Just because you don't understand why you're doing something doesn't mean that your actions were, in fact, random. If they were random, is randomness free will?




Without any reason. It's called a brainfart. If you claim every idea you have has a reason, I ask you how inventions could possibly be made. I ask you how art could be made. I ask you how imagination is possible.
If choice can be random, it is free from determinism, free from cause. Not all choices are random, but if at least one choice is random, free will exists. Something doesn't have to exist all the time to be real. Think of dinosaurs, stars we see in the skies that have exploded a long time ago, etc.


--------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


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Offlinesirreal
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: bandaid]
    #2025477 - 10/20/03 02:23 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

:thumbup: 


--------------------
I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


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OfflineAnnomM
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Phluck]
    #2025557 - 10/20/03 02:42 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I agree with Phluck. IMO free will doesn't exist, but it's amazing how we feel that it does exist.

I believe that the universe is a closed deterministic system in which everything can, ultimately, be explained by purely physical causation. All particles have a position, direction, speed, mass, etc. If two particles interact, nothing random will happen, so the position, direction, speed, mass, etc can be calculated(if we know all physical laws) and are just a function of time. In this way we could make a pretty good universe simulator, but it won't be possible to make a perfect universe prediction computer because this computer can never compute all particles in the universe because the computer itself exists and it can never predict his own predictions.

I'm still thinking about this all....

Edit: ^^^ all spelling errors are an effect of the interaction between particles in the universe.


Edited by Annom (10/20/03 02:47 PM)


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Phluck]
    #2025566 - 10/20/03 02:43 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

> If we could press a rewind button on life, go back in time, and repeat that moment with every minute variable identical, would your decision ever vary?

Let's see, I go to a coke machine and I see the choices... Very rapidly I narrow the choices down to Dr. Pepper or Coca Cola. (I review the commercials I have seen on TV in my mind, but alas they are of no help at all in my decision) I imagine the taste of Dr. Pepper, and then of Coca Cola. I consider this for a moment. I realize that both possible choices are caffinated, and I try to remember which has more caffiene. I consider the carbonation levels of the two sodas and realize that both choices are fairly heavily carbonated. I approxomate the degree of pain which should be experienced by my taste buds due to the high level of carbonation. I consider revising my earlier decision to include additional choices, but then quickly reject the idea. I consider the financial impact of purchasing a soda, and weigh the financial consequences with my percieved level of thirst. I compare the price of the soda with the ammount of money in my pocket, and find it to be under 1% of my total available resources. I decide this to be acceptable under the circumstances and resume the selection process. I consider whether my purchase will hurt the environment in any way, or assist any groups with policies I disagree with. I look around for water fountains. Seeing none, I close my eyes and put two quarters in the machine....and press the grape button.

Do I have free will? Fuckin' A I do.


--------------------
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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Phluck]
    #2025607 - 10/20/03 02:57 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Phluck said:
When you're faced with an imminant decision, "do you want to go to the party or not?", you'll make a choice there based on how you feel about parties, how you feel about the people at the party, and how you feel at the moment. If we could press a rewind button on life, go back in time, and repeat that moment with every minute variable identical, would your decision ever vary? If it would, why? 




Quote:

manna_man said:
Right, the choices we make are related to how we were influenced in the past. Our environment shapes our behaviour, and thus the decisions we make. Even if you were to strangle yourself by whatever means, there would have to existed some outside force that compells you to do so. If we were to live our past exactly the same way, there would be no difference in our decisions. However,if you were to alter the past in the slightest way, it could have drastic influences in the future.




Free will isn't about how many options you are faced with and which ones you actually decide to follow. Free will is something that grants us the power to choose whatever options we wish to choose. When I choose to turn my head this way, I exercised free will in doing so. The fact that I also had millions of other options that I did not choose does not make the concept of free will bullshit.

The choices we make right here and right now ARE influenced by how we were influenced in the past. We develop set patterns of behaviour and judgement and they can basically make our decisions for us. Does this proof that free will doesn't exist? Noooooooooooope. We might decide to follow patterns, to not make conscious decisions when faced with something, but that doesn't say anything about free will, just that we don't make a conscious decision.

If we took our life at the end and rewinded it, I am positively sure that everything would be positively the same, because life would be played out just as it had already happened. Rewinding something doesn't change what happens when you push play once again.

If we were able to rewind life, however, and stay conscious of the fact that we were given a second chance... I am DEFINITE that things would change. If you were given the ability to consciously relive your entire life, I am definite that you would make choices differently. As you would remain conscious of what happened as a result of your prior choices, you would avoid the negative stuff. There would be no point in reliving it, because you have already learned your lesson before...

So, to summarize, there actually IS a difference between limited options available and things influencing your decisons, and free will. :grin:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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