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Anonymous

There's always the fourth choice... [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2954015 - 08/02/04 12:10 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

You've got the "free will is bullshit" camp. You've got the "everyone has free will" camp. Then there's select few in the "not everyone exercises his/her free will" section.

What about the "who cares?" of the world? I don't mean that in a flippant way. What I mean is, how is knowing the "truth" of it going to change your course of action? How is it going to change your life?

If you fall into the free will is bullshit line of thinking, then maybe you're using it as an excuse. For whatever ails ya.

Why not just live your life as though the real answer doesn't matter, and PRETEND that free choice does exist? That way, at the end of your life, you might just have less to blame God/Destiny/Happenstance/Bob for. If you lived as though you were responsible for everything that happened in your life, and then it turns out that you actually WEREN'T (ie free will turns out to be bullshit), then you can say to yourself "oh well. I was MEANT to believe that and live my life accordingly."


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OfflineDeMeTer
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Phluck]
    #2956001 - 08/02/04 01:29 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I totally agree with phluck. there?s no such thing as free will.
everyone interested in this subject should check out this movie..."Waking Life" it explains how our thoughts and feelings are ultimately matter and energy in our brains. matter and energy that are obviously governed by laws -chemical, physical, biological laws-
and since brain action precedes any thought or "decision" where is the free will?

philosopher Baruch Spinoza said something like this "there?s no such thing as freedom, for every choice we make has a cause, that in turn has another cause and it goes that way until the infinte."
this reasoning is well sustained by universal law that every action has a reaction. So choices could be seen as reactions of a previous action.

Simon de la Place also thought that if there was a mind powerful enough to know the state of every atom and force in the universe at a particular moment, it could predict anything as random as the shape of the clouds. because even that WOULD HAVE A CAUSE.

remember what the french dude tells neo in the matrix reloaded about causality: we can do nothing about it just relax and flow with it.

it is also the perspective of modern neuropsychology that free will is an ilusion (check out this book: Mapping the mind by Rita Carter, page 334)


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OfflineHealingVisionary
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Phluck]
    #2956063 - 08/02/04 01:46 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I have wrestled with this issue for many long hours myself.. and the humor of it is, if there is no free will, and we live in a deterministic world, then my inner debate about whether there is free will is simply resultant of a particular arrangement of all of the matter and energy in the universe for the duration of my thought process.

It's hard to argue against determinism, but if we live as if we do not have free will, we are likely to fall into nihilism.. although this of course asserts that we have free will to control whether or not we live as if we believe ourselves to have free will.

This is viciously circular.. I'll get back to everyone when I know for sure whether or not free will exists. (haha)


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2956237 - 08/02/04 02:40 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Help :smile:

I am really sorry, but I am not able to follow these circle-thoughts.
It's a back-circle to think, 'because a choice was made, and there is only one choice possible at one moment, this choice was kind of predetermined'.
I know we had all these arguments allready, still they are not totally 'waterproof' :wink:
Not chemicals nor 'cause' make my decisions predeterminated, because my brain is a quantum-machine on which a free spirit has settled down (from out of context-world).

So please excuse, I can't follow this line.
One of us is illusioning himself :smile:
I have to educate me further, in between I believe otherways... :heart:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflineHealingVisionary
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Phluck]
    #2957018 - 08/02/04 05:40 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

This is sort of the philosophical equivalent of the scientific "Relativity vs. Quantum Mechanics" debate.. one is easily predictable, follows a set path and order, makes the cosmos easily mathematically represented.. the other is inexplicable, subjective, and random. (Not that I know much about higher level physics.. just a surface comparison.)

Maybe we need, then, some sort of philosophical parallel to the ten dimensional superstring theory which purports to unite relativity and quantum theory.. but I don't think the determinists are very willing to accept any free will, nor the libertarians willing to accept any determinism..

Debating about this, inwardly and socially alike, is about as fruitful as repeatedly running face first into a brick wall. But it's pretty fun nevertheless.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Phluck]
    #2957454 - 08/02/04 07:42 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I think you were born in Lotus land dude!

  :crymeariver:

See~ Rush Rocks Free Will Rules!


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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OfflineZenGecko
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #2977653 - 08/08/04 09:31 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

blue your statement.... "It's a back-circle to think, 'because a choice was made, and there is only one choice possible at one moment, this choice was kind of predetermined'" assumes that the concept of choice is valid, and much of my arguement is in direct opposition to that assumption. I say you perform an action, u make no choice. It may seem like you could have done something else, but you couldnt..the circumstances made you do what you did...you made no choice, you only had the illusion of choice. What you did was do excactly what you had to do.

For a choice you would need to perform a conscience action with no cause, yet not be randomn nor spontaneous....those are the only 3 way things ever occur. The intialization of a randomn event is an effect of a cause, the outcome of that event cant be willed..so no choice there. A spontaneous event actually generally has a cause though it may be hidden but lets pretend it has no cause..well you cant decide to be spontaneous or it isnt actually spontaneous...so no conscience will there either..so no choice, no free will, no volition. And if something causes you to do something, well hell you were caused you didnt choose...you just did what the circumstances caused you to do.

You need a 4th option for choice to be real, something akin to magic, or the hand of god, but even then you can argue that god gave you free will so god made you do whatever you did with it, since choice/action you performed was just and effect of the cause which was god giving you free will....so that leaves magic. So all you have to do to prove choice exists is prove magic exists.

And still the simple truth is that no one has yet met the challenge of doing something consciencely but with no cause. That would prove choice is real...but no one can do it. At best they may be able to do something without a cause but then its just a randomn or spontaneous action, the kind of action you cant will, or choose the outcome of.. or when it even occurs. Your whole idea of choice is false...it doesnt exist except as something we dreamed up..something delusional.


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: ZenGecko]
    #3449746 - 12/05/04 01:25 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

God I love this thread...


--------------------
Hi how's it going, wanna kick Heroin basically painlessly on your own, in your own house, without any government "help" ,or the "help" of a crazy condescending, judgmental medical doctor? Read this:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=42&Number=7342616&page=0&fpart=all



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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: ZenGecko]
    #3450548 - 12/05/04 05:09 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

It may seem like you could have done something else, but you couldnt..the circumstances made you do what you did...you made no choice, you only had the illusion of choice. What you did was do excactly what you had to do.



The circumstances influence what you do, but they don't dictate what you have to do. Of course you have a choice. At every moment you have a choice to make.
"Exactly what you had to do" implies destiny or duty. There's no reason whatsoever to assume that reality is scripted. As for duty, there are a lot of irresponsible people out there.

Quote:

For a choice you would need to perform a conscience action with no cause



Not true. If you make a choice, YOU are that cause since you decide to do something. An action without a cause would be a physically impossible feat.

Quote:

..., yet not be randomn nor spontaneous....



Random and spontaneous are synonyms in this sentence, so those aren't two seperate requirements for choice. If they aren't meant to be, you're being unreasonably vague.

Quote:

Those are the only 3 way things ever occur. The intialization of a randomn event is an effect of a cause, the outcome of that event cant be willed..so no choice there



A random event would be one without cause. If you mean random as in, randomly selected, you're right. However, one can't apply the laws of physics to the workings of the human mind as one would apply them to scientifically explainable occurences. The reason is that we're the most conscious entity on the planet, at least to my knowledge. A tree can't choose, because it's determined by outside factors and because it lacks consciousness. However, humans have the ability to choose the best action from among several options. The judge in that process is the individual themselves, not some chemical reaction alone.

Quote:

. A spontaneous event actually generally has a cause though it may be hidden but lets pretend it has no cause..well you cant decide to be spontaneous or it isnt actually spontaneous...so no conscience will there either..




Apples and oranges, buddy. You can't compare quarks materialising out of a vacuum (spontaneous event that doesn't seem to have a cause) to choosing as an individual to be spontaneous. Where's the link between them?

Quote:

so no choice, no free will, no volition. And if something causes you to do something, well hell you were caused you didnt choose...you just did what the circumstances caused you to do.



Rationalising choices by saying they were pre-ordained doesn't make them pre-ordained. If you're heading towards a traffic junction at 90 mph and the lights turn red when you're just a few yards from it, you can choose to hit the brakes or not (if you realise what's happening, of course). You might feel circumstances force you to keep going, but that's an assessment you personally make.

One question to you (and other non-believers in free will): if all our ideas and choices are pre-destined, where do concepts like free choice come from? What caused them?


--------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


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OfflineAreoZephin
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Alan Stone]
    #3483579 - 12/11/04 10:34 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

I'm lazy right now and don't feel like reading all of the 30 pages.

You're saying freewill is bullshit. If so, then everything would have to be predetermined, which, in my opinion and others is false.

If there's a being who can look into the future and tell us about it by giving the knowledge to a human, doesn't mean it's pre determined and the actions are predetermined. That's saying that the being programed us into doing everything and we have no choice, no free will. Which that is bullshit.

If a being can look into the future and tell us about it, and if it wanted to change our actions which it supposedly "programed" us into, then that would make it imperfect and would defeat the purpose of free will by saying that it knows what we will do. Which, it doesn't have to because we have free will to make those actions.


--------------------
The Pharisees and the scholars have taken the keys of knowledge and have hidden them. They have not entered nor have they allowed those who want to enter to do so.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: AreoZephin]
    #3483601 - 12/11/04 10:41 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

free will(y)


--------------------


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Disclaimer!?


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Gomp]
    #3484019 - 12/11/04 11:37 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

I still don't understand what free will is supposed to be.

I haven't seen a single definition I can make heads or tails of.

If free will is "the ability to make choices for ourselves", how do we make our choices? Why?

What is "the ability to make choices for ourselves"?

I also don't understand how the fact that some theories based on quantum mechanics speak of multiple universes relates to our ability to make choices.

What am I missing?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflineAreoZephin
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Phluck]
    #3484110 - 12/11/04 11:51 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Phluck said:
I still don't understand what free will is supposed to be.

I haven't seen a single definition I can make heads or tails of.

If free will is "the ability to make choices for ourselves", how do we make our choices? Why?

What is "the ability to make choices for ourselves"?

I also don't understand how the fact that some theories based on quantum mechanics speak of multiple universes relates to our ability to make choices.

What am I missing?




We make our choices based on what we need to conjure and because of what we feel is right or wrong or needed etc.

And that's a theory, just like any theory and philosophy. Just like free will being bullshit is a theory, and non pre destination is a theory because either of them can not be proven until science can with physical evidence which is why talking about it is fun yet excruciatingly dropped eventually until it is brought up again because science can not prove it.


--------------------
The Pharisees and the scholars have taken the keys of knowledge and have hidden them. They have not entered nor have they allowed those who want to enter to do so.


Edited by AreoZephin (12/11/04 11:52 PM)


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: AreoZephin]
    #3484172 - 12/12/04 12:02 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

We make our choices based on what we need to conjure and because of what we feel is right or wrong or needed etc.

How is what we feel is right or wrong determined? What do you mean by conjure?

I still don't get it.

"Tawrhdf exists."

"What's Tawrhdf?"

"It's a magic thing."

"A magic thing that does what?"

"It's the thing that exudes the magic of Tawrhdf."

"Sounds like bullshit."

"That's just your theory."


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflineAreoZephin
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Phluck]
    #3484227 - 12/12/04 12:14 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

If you turned on a stove to fry some french fries and you took the pan off, and you just decided to stick your hand on the hot surface to fry your hand in excruciating pain. Did you determine it or did a higher power? Seems like you would have. Of course, many people wouldn't because it would hurt no? And there's obviously reasons behind why anyone would want or not want to do that. So if there's reasons then why would not there be free will?

Conjure: To influence or effect.


--------------------
The Pharisees and the scholars have taken the keys of knowledge and have hidden them. They have not entered nor have they allowed those who want to enter to do so.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: AreoZephin]
    #3485962 - 12/12/04 01:48 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Did you determine it or did a higher power? Seems like you would have.

I'm not saying a higher power is involved, I do believe that our minds go through the decision making process, however, read my FIRST post in this entire thread. That explains what I'm talking about.

If our choices are goverened by the chemistry in our brains and the laws of physics, then do we really have a choice?

If I roll a snowball down a hill, it may seem to be choosing a path to take at random, but it's really being jostled and pushed around by the laws of physics.

Even if there is a random factor to our decisions, is that really an ability to choose?

I don't doubt that our desires dictate our choices, but we can't choose the strength or nature of our desires. We just follow them. I *could* skip lunch today, that's my choice... but I'll only actually make that choice if my desire to make some point about free will outweighs my desire to eat. Which it doesn't, and it's lunchtime.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Phluck]
    #3486006 - 12/12/04 01:59 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

There are computers programmed to be *random* number generators. Push a button and a random number will pop up. You could spend your entire life clicking that button and believe that each number is random, but in actuality it is not. A very long mathematical formula is causing these *random* numbers. A mathematical formula that can be derived. As Phluck said, our brains are an assortment of chemical reactions and electrical impulses, all of which belong to a very complex formula. Could we ever derive its equation? Probably not.


--------------------
I am in love with Acidic_Sloth



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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: looner2]
    #3486097 - 12/12/04 02:21 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

As Phluck said, our brains are an assortment of chemical reactions and electrical impulses, all of which belong to a very complex formula. Could we ever derive its equation? Probably not.

I wouldn't be too quick to underestimate our understanding of the brain, we're moving in leaps and bounds:

http://www.napa.ufl.edu/2004news/braindish.htm


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflineAreoZephin
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Phluck]
    #3487166 - 12/12/04 07:09 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

So if the brain goes through the decision making process, if, our choices are goverened by the chemeistry in our brains and the laws of physics. Then how do you explain nightmares and dreams when you are asleep? There's no discision making in that. Yet we can "choose" when we are awake.


--------------------
The Pharisees and the scholars have taken the keys of knowledge and have hidden them. They have not entered nor have they allowed those who want to enter to do so.


Edited by AreoZephin (12/12/04 07:12 PM)


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: AreoZephin]
    #3487354 - 12/12/04 07:59 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

So if the brain goes through the decision making process, if, our choices are goverened by the chemeistry in our brains and the laws of physics. Then how do you explain nightmares and dreams when you are asleep?

Huh? I don't see how the fact that we dream means that our minds aren't controlled by the laws of physics?

Where's the contradiction there?

If a car runs on gasoline, then how come the doors open and close?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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