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InvisibleZero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland

Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
Loc: Passing Cloud
Re: fate - free will : paradox [Re: Strumpling]
    #1540166 - 05/11/03 10:20 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

i think we are all truely creative, its a matter of choice, its a matter of ability. we stem forth from where we are created. i think we see a question of uniqueness coming into play. ive thought of many things and seen many things and created things in my head and sculpture im sure no one has ever come up with before. if murex would have never read in his life, im sure he wouldnt be able to write on this board to even to begin to think to begin to exchange his ideas. granted i have felt like murex. but i think the question comes into play like always. what do you want? what satisfaction or end do you come to by not delving into anothers realm. but i dont know it just seems like that would be very debateable and in the end it would just come down to "people are different and do different things". maybe just an isigna for personality. but i think over all it doesnt really matter. its what works for you. and 1 + 1 doesnt always equal 2 in this case. cause either way i think you can be purely creative whether you read or not. we all have our mediums for accessing our inner world. how we bring that out is up to us. and no one is going to look and judge you on how you came about it. thats uniqueness... i think. 

for instance, my dreams provide me with an endless supply of creative thought. a place where no bounds are known. but learning give rise to differintiated thought, more complexity. which i like. maybe staying in my own head all the time drives me insane. but then again, with all these different Vantage points i just feel like  :confused:  :shocked: ? o yeah...?  :confused: hmmmm  :confused:  :crazy:


--------------------
What?

Edited by Zero7a1 (05/11/03 10:30 PM)

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OfflineMurex
Reality Hacker

Registered: 07/28/02
Posts: 3,599
Loc: Traped in a shell.
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
Re: fate - free will : paradox [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1540207 - 05/11/03 10:30 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

everything you know has come from external input. the language you use, someone taught you how to use it.

I can't help the stuff I learned as a child. I believe that the farther you are from the norm, the better (with some exceptions). I hate conformity to an extreme, but I don't have a mohawk, boots and a black leather jacket, because that would be conforming. I'm not telepathic, so I believe we need language, but I really don't talk much in real life, so it wouldn't hurt me to be mute.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


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OfflineMurex
Reality Hacker

Registered: 07/28/02
Posts: 3,599
Loc: Traped in a shell.
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
Re: fate - free will : paradox [Re: Zero7a1]
    #1540229 - 05/11/03 10:36 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)


Actually I don't need to be here at all. I just come here because I'm boared usually. I also come here to help other souls realize what mushrooms can do and all that, I feel like I owe the mushroom a favor or that I'm doing something good for my fellow humans by adding my 2 cents.

I'm also interested in the effects of drugs and all that- what worked with what and what was felt or seen while tripping. It all goes tougether somewhat.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


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OfflineMurex
Reality Hacker

Registered: 07/28/02
Posts: 3,599
Loc: Traped in a shell.
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
Re: fate - free will : paradox [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1540248 - 05/11/03 10:43 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

i think you are projecting your own mental insecurities onto the author's intent.....your mind is going to be shaped by the external world no matter what, you can't shape it yourself, thats impossible, you need help, everyone needs help.

I don't need help with anything. Nobody 'needs' help with anything, people want help. I don't need anyone to tell me how to act, what to wear, what's right, what to believe or anything. I have everything I need- and it's in my own head.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


Edited by Murex (05/11/03 10:45 PM)

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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
T'was born oftrue in the yearof the cock!

Registered: 04/07/03
Posts: 1,500
Loc: a human-infested anthill
Last seen: 20 years, 7 months
Re: fate - free will : paradox [Re: Murex]
    #1540270 - 05/11/03 10:52 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

"I don't need anyone to tell me how to act, what to wear, what's right"

I disagree, i think you do.

if you didnt live in a society like a capitalist consumer democracy, a society which provides alot of information on alot of different things, you would be fucked.

try being a hunter or a farmer without anyone giving you tips, you would be dead within a month.

humans have evolved through our ability to communicate.


--------------------
enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.

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InvisibleZero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland

Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
Loc: Passing Cloud
Re: fate - free will : paradox [Re: Murex]
    #1540277 - 05/11/03 10:54 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

oh dont get me wrong Murex. just from my vantage point i guess thats just how i adress the issue. i know you dont need to be here :P. but its a pleasure that you are here! i couldnt tell you why the hell im here, or where im going. to tell you the truth there isnt to much that i do know about anything. i see and i experience. i feel that i owe my abilties to you guys, to everyone around me. i feel that i have somethign to do for everyone. and that by understanding the people around me, i gain access to new mediums for manipulating this reality. this is what i enjoy and what i love. if i were to spend all the time in my head, i would either be dead, or completely insane and not be able to help anyone one bit. but most of the time i am in my own head. and maybe thats the cause for projection of a certain basis or thought. and which something you could give a response to. to me i feel like this is kind of like we are floating in air and you are facing north west and im looking south and you are about 5 feet away from me. and im trying to describe to tell you what is going on. but definately away from that, i think it comes down to purpose. and this is where i think this paradox comes into play. my free will is only expanded as much as i can find my way in my fate.

if i could do everything like i do, and one day really help transform the world. i would be happy. and how i got to my end it wouldnt matter. it doesnt really matter to me how i get there, whether i learn from other people or not. what i really have to learn is what no one can tell me. that i have to find on my own. and what i create stands to be an example for my true ability to follow my own vision, and my ability to discover and cope with the unknown that i face.

i appreciate your own perspective, and it helps me :P . whether you try to or not i find it substantial and unique for my own reasons. besides that i respect you and everyone else as an individual. you help my own advancement :smile: to hopefully one day help you :laugh: in some way :wink: 


--------------------
What?

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OfflineMurex
Reality Hacker

Registered: 07/28/02
Posts: 3,599
Loc: Traped in a shell.
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
Re: fate - free will : paradox [Re: Zero7a1]
    #1540380 - 05/11/03 11:21 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

what i really have to learn is what no one can tell me. that i have to find on my own. and what i create stands to be an example for my true ability to follow my own vision, and my ability to discover and cope with the unknown that i face.

Great post Zero! I totally agree with it.  :grin:

The only true path to walk is your own. Don't  allow others to divert you.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


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OfflineMurex
Reality Hacker

Registered: 07/28/02
Posts: 3,599
Loc: Traped in a shell.
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
Re: fate - free will : paradox [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1540392 - 05/11/03 11:25 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

I disagree, i think you do.

You think, but you do not know:wink:


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: fate - free will : paradox [Re: Murex]
    #1540656 - 05/12/03 01:04 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

I create my fate.
You might, too.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Anonymous

Re: fate - free will : paradox [Re: Murex]
    #1541121 - 05/12/03 07:50 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Well, it's also that I don't want to waste my time. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure some books are great and all, but all the books I've read or started to read are very boring and never seem to get to the point quick enough.

I think reading these posts here in the Shroomery just summerizes peoples thoughts, so I don't have to read a whole book to understand. A book is written (usually) by just one author, while here in the shroomery, many like-minded people are adding to threads all the time. More info can be derrived here.

I like to see other angles of perception, but a whole book would take too much of my time. I can always just think this shit up with my time instead.





If I may speculate, some have said, "We read to know we are not alone." You don't mind being alone and therefore do not need to read.

Sound right?

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Offline11polakie11
PeripheralCustodian

Registered: 06/14/02
Posts: 112
Loc: G-Ville FLA
Last seen: 20 years, 2 months
Re: fate - free will : paradox [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1542348 - 05/12/03 04:49 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

fate - free will

are both just as valid?
paradox is a functional contradiction
..she gasped " it cannot be! BUT IT IS!"...

does one edge of the continuim actualy exist nearer to the other edge?

is abscence thusly a presence?

your on a soccer field in an intense soccer game
and you are every participant
and the ball


--------------------
-i am waiting for my boyfriend/compainion-
_I wish i were Aeon Flux_

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Offline3MJ3
i&I
Registered: 03/01/03
Posts: 102
Last seen: 19 years, 2 months
Re: fate - free will : paradox [Re: 11polakie11]
    #1542473 - 05/12/03 05:22 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Ultimately I think we are in a compatibly deterministic existence. There are certain things that are determined and are products of fate, but within the confines of such a system people have free will to choose what paths such determinism offers them.

For instance, you can't control the fact that you are a living mass of flesh and that you move and act in a way that corresponds to the realities of your physical being: the movement of atoms and molecules which make up what you are in the phenomenal world. I can't have the free will to say, change into a bird and fly, as much as I'd like to, it just can't be because our fate is determined in a sense by the limitations of the phenomenal world. But at the same time we can choose to move and think however we wish within the confines of this phenomenal world.

If however, you dismiss the phenomenal world as an illusion, as a product of our consciousness, then you have to accept that the illusion itself is your free will manifesting itself. Then in a sense, free will is absolute and fate has no place, as their are no confines for it to manifest itself once one has dismissed the parameters of all physical laws i.e cause and effect etc. etc.

So my question is, is free will just in our minds? Do we create our own perception of free will or the deterministic parameters that elude to fate?

i&I

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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: fate - free will : paradox [Re: 3MJ3]
    #1544229 - 05/13/03 02:52 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Compatibilism is a copout.

And, not to be a dick, but... try using the search function.
It's as easy as one, two, three, four!


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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OfflineRhizoid
carbon unit
Male

Registered: 01/22/00
Posts: 1,739
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 2 months, 9 days
Re: fate - free will : paradox [Re: Sclorch]
    #1544434 - 05/13/03 06:54 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

try using the search function.



How would the search function have helped here? I don't get it.

My personal position regarding free will is that it is equivalent to randomness, which is equivalent to the observer's inability to predict an exact outcome, which is another way to say "unspecified boundary conditions", or free parameters. Of course, subjectively free will seems different because we associate it with an intent, but we don't generally do that in the other cases.

Is there an existing label for this viewpoint?
I am here to learn just as much as I am here to share my own insights.

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Offline11polakie11
PeripheralCustodian

Registered: 06/14/02
Posts: 112
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Last seen: 20 years, 2 months
Re: fate - free will : paradox [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1544610 - 05/13/03 09:11 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

so your question is: how in control are we? how responsible are we for what we go through, what we put others through, and what we experience?

how responsible?

I say completely.
THe subjective and objective paramaters of experience (the central point or spherical periphery boundary) can merge.
I say completely.

Free will and fate exist how they are wanted too.
How responsible?


--------------------
-i am waiting for my boyfriend/compainion-
_I wish i were Aeon Flux_

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OfflineRhizoid
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Registered: 01/22/00
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Last seen: 2 months, 9 days
Re: fate - free will : paradox [Re: 11polakie11]
    #1544732 - 05/13/03 09:55 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

I agree that our responsibility is complete, because in a very obvious sense there is no one else to blame but me for the choices that I have made by myself, regardless of how much information I received from external sources. All those external influences are a part of me, almost by definition, and they do limit the choices I am capable of making. But it's very hard to see from the outside what choices were truly available to another person, so it's much better to take a pragmatic rather than a punishing approach to making justice.

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OfflineDeiymiyan
I AM

Registered: 04/17/03
Posts: 656
Loc: Within the Realm of Imagi...
Last seen: 14 years, 8 months
Re: fate - free will : paradox [Re: Sclorch]
    #1544815 - 05/13/03 10:41 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

I create my fate.
You might, too.
--------------------


If I take an "outside of the box" look at myself, I think that 1) I have CREATED my fate or 2) It has been created FOR me.

Now that I've been born and am journeying towards my death,  MY WILL is free to think whatever it wants about the journey... It reacts to the outcomes of the journey; but perhaps, does not alter the journey itself.

... Like a "tired" addict... who is "sick and tired"; freely in the mind, wants to stop; but cannot. For that individual, a weak will had been administered so that they experience "lamentation"... That now becomes their journey: their fate...  [ maybe THEY wanted to know what it felt like; or maybe it was their "punishment" to feel it ]

In the first possibility, it's all about the kind of experience you wanted to have...  Like, for example,  those who wanted to experience "tripping", have come to do so...

lol... In the second case, it's almost like a child who was "bad" and sent to their room by the parents...  They're not going anywhere, but they are free to "think about" what they've done.


I'm sure there will be those who think... Oh ya?  Well what if I excercised my free will and stayed in my room the whole time and did nothing else...  I'm allowed...  I'll do whatever I want ! I am in CONTROL !..... [ sure, that is an extreme example, but illustrates the point reasonably ] .....

I would say to them... Yes, you are FREE to think that... think what you want....  but that is NOT what you WILL DO.


Analogy: Think of it like a song from Mozart....  Like it or not, while you listen, you cannot change it...  it was already written.



Or.. it's like these words I'm typing now... you cannot change what I have already done.

........  Enjoy the Ride ............




:grin:



 


--------------------


Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..


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Offline3MJ3
i&I
Registered: 03/01/03
Posts: 102
Last seen: 19 years, 2 months
Re: fate - free will : paradox [Re: Sclorch]
    #1544855 - 05/13/03 11:06 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Compatibilism is a copout.





How was the compatibalism that I was outlining a copout? I was illustrating that their are certain confines, such as physical laws, that we cannot manipulate in anyway, and so in a sense the manner in which we excercise free will is done so somewhat fatefully. This is because it is our FATE that we are prisoners of the physical laws of the universe. In fact, if our will - which is immaterial - was completely free, the restrictions of our very bodies would not stop us from manifesting any wish or want that we thought of.

Please ellaborate on how compatablism is a copout. I think that it doesn't avoid any issues in it's theory, to the contrary, it addresses both fate and free will, and arrives at a nexus where the two function in harmony. There is nothing that says that one cannot live assertively excersising free will in a compatibalist universe.

i&I

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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: fate - free will : paradox [Re: 3MJ3]
    #1546255 - 05/13/03 07:01 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

There are four threads that discuss compatibilism.
Whatever.... I'll do the cut and paste thing...
------------------------------
Of course, we come to a head here... you take the String Theorists' (read: compatibilism) reply here and say "no no no, that just APPEARS to be random... in actuality, it's quite ordered, we're just on such a short timescale [insert crappy anecdote about "ant time"]... randomness is just an illusion..."
And then when I ask them, "How am I supposed to differentiate between illusion and reality if such fundamental concepts like randomness and free will are illusions that my puny, ape brain is deceived into thinking are real? Why not just doubt everything? Boy, is this productive. [/sarcasm]"
------------------------------
You see, I think that a slight amount of randomness provides the necessary foundation for adaptability. Randomness initiates a change. By assuming formlessness (being adaptable), a being can continue to function/survive in spite of these changes. I think free will is a metafunction of our adaptive nature. It really isn't BASED in the physical plane... however the physical provides a foundation for free will. This is how I connect them. Take a computer for instance, you can have programs that run on top of programs and on and on... This is how I view our consciousness (minus the 1/0 aspect of the computer). We adapt... the key part of this ability to adapt is free will- the ability to truly make a choice.
-------------------------------
pinksharkmark (from the old thread): he RESULTS of free will -- the chain of effects set into motion by the exercise of free will -- follow the above physically mechanistic laws.

This is where I would apply my "dirty fractal edge" treatment and say that there is random noise that changes things proportionally (many factors here). I think that the physical world is for the most part, cause and effect, but there's always a little "dirt" in there.
--------------------------------
I'll agree that it is highly probable that neither free will nor determinism is provable.
(I don't know for sure, so I'll leave a little uncertainty in there)

infidelgod: My point is that to believe in free will, you MUST believe in a metaphysical or dare I say a spiritual source. Something that can't be verified. You said yourself "It really isn't BASED in the physical plane".

Not at all. Would you call a computer program metaphysical? I don't think it fits.
Just because something isn't static doesn't mean it is metaphysical.

ig: The physical plane itself can't explain free will, so where does it come from? I don't know, but I experience it, so I believe it. It comes down to faith for me and I have no problem believing something on faith, I need not look elsewhere for an explanation.

For me... it isn't an issue of faith. It's an issue of what I observe.
I don't put faith in things/ideas that are contrary to the way they seem to be and/or those things/ideas that cannot be tested.
------------------------------------------------
Sclorch: it isn't an issue of faith. It's an issue of what I observe
ig: yeah but you have to have faith to believe that what you observe is what really is.

Who doesn't have faith in what they observe?
I mean, we can play with semantics here and apply faith to everything... you know damn well which connotation of 'faith' I'm trying to avoid.

ig: c'mon Sclorch, can't you admit that you believe certain things on faith?

Faith in observation. Faith in uncertainty. Faith in thought. Faith in self.
That's about it.

ig: why is faith such a bad thing?

Faith is, with few exceptions (see above), blind to reason.
Faith discourages doubt.
For the most part, doubt is virtuous as it encourages thinking.
I don't think anyone would say thinking is a bad thing.
--------------------------------------------


That was just part of the first link I posted.
It gets tiresome having to restate and repeat...


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Offline3MJ3
i&I
Registered: 03/01/03
Posts: 102
Last seen: 19 years, 2 months
Re: fate - free will : paradox [Re: Sclorch]
    #1547829 - 05/14/03 10:12 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

You didnt' answer my question at all. If I wanted to read those previous posts I would have. I was asking you specifically to elaborate on how compatibalism is a cop out. That is not being addressed above or in the thread provided.

I can't define your opinion from a bunch of seperate moments in time which do not involve both you and me. You cannot equate the circumstances. Those moments in time are already defined....they cannot define another point in time especially when it's a seperate issue: I want to know specifically why you think compatibalism is a cop out?

i&I

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