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Invisiblesilversoul7
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What is free will?
    #3261041 - 10/21/04 06:05 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I've found that most discussions of free will vs. determinism seem to beg this question. What I've gathered is that it has something to do with freedom to make your own choices. Meanwhile, determinism says that the conditions present at the time a choice is made determine which choice someone will make. Are these two ideas necessarily incompatible? Does the predictability of a choice make it any less of a choice, or any less your own? Does the fact that I have a preference for a certain choice mean that I have not truly chosen it?

Perhaps I'm going about this the wrong way. Perhaps I'm mistaken in the assumption that there is an "I" to make that choice. Maybe all of existence is following some complex mathematical formula which includes an ego to give me the illusion that my actions are my own and not the result of that formula. After all, we cannot truly separate ourselves from the universe. We are a part of it, and any model of the universe which does not take this into account is bound to be flawed. When a person claims to make a decision, what exactly is making that decision? Is it their body? Their brain? These are all part of the universe, and thus subject to the law of cause and effect just as much as anything else. Even if they say that their consciousness or soul(whatever that means) was responsible for the decision, the fact it was able to interact with the universe means that it is part of it. So, in a sense, perhaps the universe itself is making your choices. Or maybe "choice" has no real meaning.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: What is free will? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3261139 - 10/21/04 06:28 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Imagination is the boundary of the mind. Physics and rational is the boundary of the body.

Most choices you decide to make are a result of a summation of past expirences that lead to new expirences, in the future, which alters future decision outcomes. I do not believe free will exists physically and that it is an imagined idea, as free will can only exist in the mind, itself. This does not mean you cannot utilize it in solutions/decisions, much of science is the result of thinking "outside of the box" and excercising our limited free will (imagination).


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As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: What is free will? [Re: psyka]
    #3261184 - 10/21/04 06:37 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

That was one of the best explanations I heard for it psycha!


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibleLakimada
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Registered: 10/12/04
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Re: What is free will? [Re: psyka]
    #3261196 - 10/21/04 06:40 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

free will is just free personal choice. everybody has free choice, just like you have the choice to walk outside and start killing the people around you. or the choice to carry drugs and drug paraphernalia. every choice has a consenquence..good or bad


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OfflineGomp
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Re: What is free will? [Re: Lakimada]
    #3261259 - 10/21/04 06:55 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

one does not make a choice, one made a choice? ;P


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InvisibleLakimada
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Re: What is free will? [Re: Gomp]
    #3261312 - 10/21/04 07:06 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

yes??
i don't know how can you answer a contradictory question??
it has no meaning


Edited by Lakimada (10/21/04 07:11 PM)


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: What is free will? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3261444 - 10/21/04 07:35 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Instead of using words (how many thousands of posts on this unsolved msytery?), take the Swami "Free-Will Challenge".

It is v-e-r-y simple. The next time you (the collective you, not SS7) feel yourself getting angry, drop it instantly. If you can do that, then you have free will; if not; you are merely a pre-programmed bio-robot reacting to stimulus.

Next topic.  :stoned:


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: What is free will? [Re: Swami]
    #3261489 - 10/21/04 07:45 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

That's not any kind of proof for free will. Determinists could still argue that you had to do that due to factors outside your control.


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Offlinedeff
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Re: What is free will? [Re: Swami]
    #3261506 - 10/21/04 07:50 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Yes, but the reason he dropped the free will, the effect in this case, is based arourd the previous cause of accepting your challenge.

To me, free will seems nothing more than an imagined concept.

Although, then that means the concept of free will was unfreely willed.

Everything is relative to a previous frame in time, cause and effect, atleast what we are experiencing right now. I think that on an objective level there might be solitary free will for the highest encompassing being, if such a thing exists, but again this thought was derived from previous nerological recordings based around perceptions based around sensory input based around infinite causes before this, culminating to the moment of supposed free will.

Determinism to me seems to be evident enough, atleast more than free will. Some might think this limits us, but knowing this fact or not (this too the result of 'unfree choice', does not change the parameters we observe our realities through.

You provided a good explanation of free will ss7 :smile:. I too have wondered if, relative to our own existence (which is result from 'unfree will' if you 'will' :wink:), that these choices could be considered 'free', as this concept of 'freedom' is derived from this same framework.

But in the end it really makes no difference. :smile:


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: What is free will? [Re: deff]
    #3261536 - 10/21/04 07:56 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

free will in the practical sense is the ability to make choices on how and when to react or act in any given situation.

Free will in the abstract or philosophical sense is a bunch of irrelevant mumbo jumbo.

:blush:


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Everything I post is fiction. This poster is no longer active.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: What is free will? [Re: Lakimada]
    #3261552 - 10/21/04 08:00 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

how is it contradictory?


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Offlinedeff
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Re: What is free will? [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3261561 - 10/21/04 08:02 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Exactly, and therefore it's not important, but neat to discuss, or atleast the previous causes on a nerological level create the illusion of 'neat' and is sent to the observatory consciousness, this too the result of determined cause/effect :laugh:

But I agree, either way our experience is the same. One could be wrong about determinism and in actuality (if such a thing exists) made the 'free choice' to believe it. Or belief in 'free will' could have been a determined effect from infinite previous causes, all determined through the laws governing existence.

I like pie.


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: What is free will? [Re: deff]
    #3261577 - 10/21/04 08:07 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I like pie. 




Fuck you.







Sorry, my warped mind thought that was funny.  :loveeyes: 

Quote:

But I agree, either way our experience is the same. One could be wrong about determinism and in actuality (if such a thing exists) made the 'free choice' to believe it. Or belief in 'free will' could have been a determined effect from infinite previous causes, all determined through the laws governing existence.




This ain't no kind of decent argument, but what would the point in life be without free will. :loveeyes:


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Offlinedeff
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Re: What is free will? [Re: deafpanda]
    #3261635 - 10/21/04 08:18 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Is there a point even with free will?

There may not be an observed point relative to the illusional seperation of an individual within determinism, but this does not imply that there couldn't be on a collective singular level, or atleast a much higher relative level than we are observing as "seperate" perspectives.

And even still, our labelling of reason itself could be a determined event, and our emotion to this lack of a 'why' could be as well.

Really though, does it matter at all, either way? :smile:


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: What is free will? [Re: deff]
    #3261668 - 10/21/04 08:25 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

There may not be an observed point relative to the illusional seperation of an individual within determinism, but this does not imply that there couldn't be on a collective singular level, or atleast a much higher relative level than we are observing as "seperate" perspectives.




Well yeah, there's always that. But from a human perspective, it is easier to imagine a "point" with free will than it is with determinism.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
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Re: What is free will? [Re: deff]
    #3261703 - 10/21/04 08:31 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Why can't the point of free will be to realise creative potential via the independent thinking of the indivduaized parts? This is more efficient, and produces a greater result potential which serves a purpose of self realisation, what the being can become.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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Offlinedeff
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Re: What is free will? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3261721 - 10/21/04 08:35 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I'm not saying it can't, but rather that my views on the matter is that it isn't this way.

I accept the very possible possibility of me being wrong on this.

It's just that determinism seems more valid than conventional free will based around my subjective logic and experiences.

But like I've said, it does not matter either way, as it IS one way right now whether or not our fragmented perceptions can observe it.

Just be :laugh:


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
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Re: What is free will? [Re: deff]
    #3261733 - 10/21/04 08:37 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Just become........something and realise yourself anew :laugh:


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibleLakimada
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Re: What is free will? [Re: Gomp]
    #3261841 - 10/21/04 08:58 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

have a look at your question gomp? if you can't see it there must be something wrong

one does not make a choice, one made a choice?

if one does not make a choice haven't they choosen between making a choice and not making a choice.
and if one has not made a choice, they haven't made a choice.


Edited by Lakimada (10/21/04 09:01 PM)


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Offlinezionchild
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Re: What is free will? [Re: Lakimada]
    #3262258 - 10/21/04 10:35 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

i believe in free-will of the individual to choose what he or she believes in the metaphysical realm (spiritual beliefs), but in fate of humankind as a whole. Personally, i am a follower of Yeshua (the Christ), and believe that the prophecies within the bible are taking place (starting with the new world order - novus ordo seclorum, as spelled out on the dollar bill) - bringing the fate of humankind. However, this is another topic entirely. Many people i discuss the issue of fate vs. free will with seem to neglect the idea of free will for the individual and fate of humankind as a whole - i believe this is largely in part due to people's inability to accept the supposed "fate" of humankind, whatever you might perceive that to be. Obviously my arguement can be approached from many angles that might claim that it is not much of an argument at all, as you are still theoretically "making decisions" as to what your spiritual beliefs are. That having been said, i will add that much of the speculation and discussion surrounding this issue is simply mental masturbation to me - humans, although "rational" beings, are fundamentally incapable of reconciling issues of this magnitude; it brings to mind the image of fish in a pond arguing about what lies beyond the surface, while all along the state of our existence is clear to those observing from above. Better to spend time cultivating your spirit than jacking off your brain.


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