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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: trendal]
    #2908615 - 07/20/04 03:23 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
I have never, to my knowledge, made a "choice" in this life which did not have a specified and real set of "causes".



Who killed my answer on this and why ?


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Anonymous

Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: trendal]
    #2908657 - 07/20/04 03:33 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Our choices comes from previous "effects," so our choices are limited. If you are arguing that we don't have absolute free will then you are correct. Too many people think in black and white. Yes we have free will but not absolute free will.

And I was joking about the length of this thread. What I meant was this issue is not half as complicated as any philosopher makes it out to be. It's really quite simple and doesn't require a thread this long of arguing to reach a conclusion.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: trendal]
    #2908726 - 07/20/04 03:58 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

No 'will' could be totally 'bound' to effects, causes or prognoses. There's everytime a certain uncertainity within, which also makes it 'free', not totally determined.
(another point of view)


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #2908872 - 07/20/04 04:36 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Well I'm not arguing the existence of "free will" at the moment...as I said earlier in the thread I think that it could exist, but only provided that some part of our conscousness is "separate" from the Universe. What I was trying to get at is that every choice has a cause and without the above premise (that some part of consciousness is separate from the "rest of existence") I think this DOES exclude the concept of "free-will" (which I definte as the ability to make a choice not dependant on any causal chain).


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: trendal]
    #2909008 - 07/20/04 05:04 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

So, break the causal chain, which anyway can not ever be complete ! :smile: So you will get the free choice.
I really think it's simple: The part of the brain, which you would postulate 'seperate of the universe' is the lack of information which our brain could not be aware of.
Poor brain if it would be so determined from all inforamtions, feeding it to 'causes'.
I don't say, choices happen out of the blue (even if one can make them happen out of it), but out of the lack of satisfaing informational determination causes. The brain has to 'improvise'.
As I am relatively new to these boards I will just say to the topic : no, I don't think so... (and I left out all the theological stuff)


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #2909341 - 07/20/04 06:28 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Making a decision because of a lack of "satisfaing informational determination" still has a cause - in this case the cause for making a decision without using any outside information is the very lack of that information in the first place.

Trying to argue away cause-and-effect has never seemed to work: there are no known examples of things happening without a cause.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: trendal]
    #2909460 - 07/20/04 07:19 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Hehe, making a decision on the cause of the lack of information...
:grin:
What about, making a decision on the cause of no cause ?

That ends in language-games... you have not convinced me


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #2909469 - 07/20/04 07:24 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

you have not convinced me

Nor have you "convinced" me :wink:
So we'll have to agree to disagree on this one!


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: trendal]
    #2909542 - 07/20/04 07:53 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

agreed :smile:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: trendal]
    #2909740 - 07/20/04 08:54 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

trendal writes:

What I was trying to get at is that every choice has a cause and without the above premise (that some part of consciousness is separate from the "rest of existence") I think this DOES exclude the concept of "free-will" (which I definte as the ability to make a choice not dependant on any causal chain).

Volitional actions (free will) do not defy the rule of cause and effect.

For example, you can perform several actions with an orange. You can bite it, throw it, drop it, squeeze it till it bursts, etc. The effect (the orange sails through the air) -- has a cause (your decision to throw it).

pinky


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Phred]
    #2909754 - 07/20/04 08:56 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

trenadl writes:

the concept of "free-will" (which I definte as the ability to make a choice not dependant on any causal chain)

And I'll throw in the webster.com definition:

Main Entry: free will
Function: noun
1 : voluntary choice or decision <I do this of my own free will>
2 : freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: trendal]
    #2909998 - 07/20/04 09:56 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

And again, note that it is you making the choice. The action is not without prior cause, you are the cause.

This is why in discussions about "free will", I prefer to use the word "volition". Volition has a much narrower definition, and fits precisely what is being discussed. A huge percentage of these "free will" threads is taken up by linguistic gymnastics rather than addressing the issue at hand -- do we act as we do because we cannot do otherwise?

pinky


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Phred]
    #2910011 - 07/20/04 10:01 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

The action is not without prior cause, you are the cause.

That's what I've been getting at all along :smile:


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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OfflineZenGecko
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: trendal]
    #2911155 - 07/21/04 03:44 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

floyd and trendal seem to get it..mostly.

If an action is randomn or spontaneous u cant exercise your will/volition whatever u choose to call it. U might say u chose to initiate a randomn action, but you intitiating that event is just the effect of a prior cause. you cant will a spontaneous even to occur either so no will or volition involved there either. The only other way things happen is thru causes...or like i've said MAGIC, but then if you wanna prove the existance of free will u have to prove that Magic exists first.

Saying i dont believe we have a free choice but we still get to choose is the same as saying we do what we have to given the circumstances, just erase choice out of there, because in that context it is not accurate, the nature of choice is freedom, but both are illusions/misconceptions.

My arguement against free will centers on this mode of existance, the whole/one/system/god whatever u wanna call it might have free will and us to as aspects of it if we are indeed aspects of it, because that would me we are it in effect. but on this everyday level of experience wether we have it or not, it isnt accessable, we do things because we are caused to do them, we do them randomnly maybe, but even randomn events have initial causes, or we do them spontaneously, but even spontaneous events generally have a cause, its just unseen, or unexpected.

So u need some other way for an event to occur...and all that leaves is magic or something equivelent. You cant have limited freedom, partial freedom, and saying your choice/volition whatever u wanna call it is restricted is the same as saying you have limited freedom, those are oxymorons, the respective definitions of the words make them incompatable. They simply dont exist except as conceptions, flawed incorrect conceptions. Choice isnt real, there is only what u do given the circumstances, freedom cant be limited or it isnt free, if u accept the standard definition of the word free. The word choice has freedom implied in it, if it didnt u might as well say "action" instead of "choice".

These are all terms we use to describe how things SEEM to be, because often we arent aware of causes, or even effects...thoughts/actions just seem to happen...but even if that is the case, that these actions are randomn or spontaneous still isnt free will, because u cant exercise will or volition over when they occur, or what effect they'll have, so they arent conscience choices...because conscence choice doesnt exist, not in this mode of reality that we percieve daily. Free will may exist, magically or someway some where, but for all practical intents and purposes we cant use it in this life. You can be consience but not free, consience just means awareness, thinking, it does mean your thoughts dont have causes or effects, or your actions, it simply means that to some degree you are aware of yourself and what is happening around you. It is required for free will, but it doesnt require free will in itself.

Its so simple just consiencely choose to agree with me for no reason, with out any cause, do it in a non randomn non spontaneous manner and you will have proven my arguement completely wrong and this thread can die. Not one single person here, or anywhere will ever meet this challenge i bet my life on it...and all my money (if i had any)

Ofcourse just saying...hey i did it!!! isnt good enough, you gotta explain how you did it with out being caused to do it, or having it be a randomn or spontaneous event. You have to do it, yet not be the cause of it, nor can anything else cause it, and u have to have done it in a conscience manner. This challenge has been issued repeatedly by me and others and no one has risen to it..they just continue to say "i know i have free will because i make choices all the time" or some other nonsense but no one just does the one thing that could lay this all to rest and if they are right should be such a simple thing and just meet that challenge.

there are 3 positions that have been stated over and over again in this thread. That of free will is BS(atleast in this mode of existance in our everday lives) free will is real, we have it..bla bla bla, and we dont have free will but can still make choices, or the other version of basically the same position, we have limited freedom/will/volition..basically they want there to be some middle ground, well there is none, limited freedom isnt freedom, limited choice isnt choice, its just action. so many of you see the logic, understand it...and then ignore it, others of you just completely ignore it in favor of how u want things to be, then finally the rest see it, understand it, and the implications and accept it as truth, or atleast the truth of this level of existance.

Sincerely,
That which is, and has NO CHOICE BUT TO BE.


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Offlinecybrbeast
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Phluck]
    #2939863 - 07/29/04 11:45 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I don't know if this has been said before. If so, kudos to the one.
But IMO there is a free will, and I used to be the most sceptical person on earth. But last night I learned that free will is choosing your path through the quantum uncertanties. Because every uncertainty will happen in a parrelel universe. So why not in your universe. You just have to believe you can control your own destiny. Last night I believed this and miracles did happen.
I don't know if I'm right or wrong but I assure you that if you live your life this way, good things will come to you. And it doesn't matter if you had a good life because you figured out a way to control quantum effects or to control your own mind. It's all the same -> pure bliss.

Interstate 60 is a really good movie about free will or not. Please watch it.

Last night I saw my best friend cry in the 11th dimension...


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OfflineZenGecko
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: cybrbeast]
    #2950996 - 08/01/04 05:55 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

the whole idea that we have free will in the sense that all possibilities are realized in the multi verse or all virtual possibilities (the unrealized) are equivenlent mathmatically to the realized ones is intresting...but for all practical purposes u in this reality dont get to use your free will because you are just either randomnly assigned a possible path or you take the path that the circumstances of your universe dictate...so while a you somewhere got to go a different path, that path is the only path that You could have taken, just as your path was the only one u could have taken given all the cirumstances...remember u need conscience will in order to have true free will also, so randomness is not enough for free will, you cant will the out come of a randomn event. and the intialization of a randomn event has a cause..you, but you causing that is just the effect of a prior cause. That only leaves a spontaneous action, but again u cant exert your will here either...u cant make a spontaneous event occur at a designated time, nor predict the outcome, that is the nature of such and event. So again for all practical purposes in this level of existance we are yet again screwed out of any usable free will.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2951221 - 08/01/04 10:51 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Just the fact, that there are more than one possibilities to choose, makes my will free. There my be 1000 causes for each choise, but the choice I decide is free.

Is there any will behind the will at all ?

That's so plain easily said, random is the cause, youself are the cause, nothingness is the cause, will is the cause, freedom is the cause...

Cause by itself doesn't make my will unfree.

For some advocats there might not seem to be any free will. In reality this looks totally different.

I don't get it.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


Edited by BlueCoyote (08/01/04 11:03 AM)


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #2951404 - 08/01/04 12:40 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Free will is an absolute universal right, sometimes impeccability calls on the self to surrender free will to divine will in faith and trust.


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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Phluck]
    #2951843 - 08/01/04 02:43 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

didnt read the first 14 pages.. so sorry if this has been said:

Free will exists, but only in the present. The only way you could possibly disprove it is by being at the end of all life, and looking at a timeline of what HAPPENED. The problem with that is that there are parallel universes and such b/c of quantum uncertainty. Youd be looking at a timeline of what happened, not what had to happen. Did it have to happen that way? Well yes, in your Universe.


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OfflineZenGecko
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: vampirism]
    #2953891 - 08/01/04 11:36 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Blue... half my arguement here is that those choices are not real, that they are themselves illusions because u cant actually every do any of them unless cirumstances allow it, but cirumstances only allow for one possibility at any given moment, or else you could split your self in two and take the left path and the right path...and u cant do that..u only get 1 action and no choice in which it is, u must always perform the action that cirumstance dictate at that moment, those other seemingly possible choices arent actually possible and arent actually choices, and i have out lined why this is so in my arguements through out this thread.

Shroom...your just making a flat out statement here, no arguement and no support for your statement just an opinion, which your welcome to express but it is not a counter arguement.

Morrow... Even in the multi verse each individual is only able to perform the action that the circumstances allow at that moment, and only that action, in another universe your other self may have done something else but that other thing was the only thing they could do at that moment, just as what u did was the only thing u could do at that moment...that is some shitty freedom...it isnt even actual freedom.

All these arguements have already been addressed earlier in the thread..

more people ignoring the logic, and who dont understand the meanings of thw words they are using in their arguements.

You wanna prove that practical usable free will exists in this everyday life...simply meet the challenge issued earlier, agree with me that in this mode of every day existance we have no practical free will, do it with out any reason, any cause, and do it in a non randomn non spontaneous way and u win...and none of you can do it. its that simple.


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