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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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Shop: North Spore Cultivation Supplies, Injection Grain Bag   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Zero7a1]
    #2029675 -

ok.... there's where we get into the whole "soul" debate...

i'll just state up front that i'm not a believer.

i think that consciousness is borne of the material world, and that science will one day (soon) prove this.

if it is borne of something... supernatural... then this is very curious... because whatever supernatural force this is, it must have the ability to manipulate matter\energy in the material world...

if something which is not part of the material world can exert force over something that is, this should be enough to suggest to anyone a breach in the laws of conservation of mass and energy.

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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Alan Stone]
    #2029689 -

ditch the psychology and get down to the microscopic...

i'm talking matter and energy. i'm talking about matter and energy producing conciousness....

matter and energy follow completely non-random patterns. they are essentially predetermined.

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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Alan Stone]
    #2029690 -

"Different output can come from the same input, as the input consists of different factors, which are weighed seperately by the individual."

The mind itself is a factor, this is what I've been saying all along. If ALL factors are the same, then the output will always be the same.





--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Alan Stone]
    #2029705 -

all matter\energy in the universe (and i do believe that this includes all there is...) follows a specific and ordered pattern of behavior. it is not random, nor chaotic... it is predetermined...

i do not see why the matter and energy inside of our skulls (which is where i believe conciousness comes from) should be any exception to this.

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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Phluck]
    #2029742 -

"Science is not limited to asking certain questions. Science most certainly asks why we would choose to throw the disk, just because it doesn't have a solid answer, doesn't mean there isn't one."

To be true to the postulates of objectivism and determinism, the scope of science IS limited. Science cannot answer a question like: "If a tree falls without anyone nearby, does it make a sound?" or "Is it wrong to kill a person?". Why can't it? Because the essence of sound is not defined by science. Only vibrations are. Sound itself can't be reproduced by any tool we make, only our brains can create sound.Because judgement of interhuman relations cannot be quanticised or objectively researched.
The question "Why do humans throw discs?" isn't exactly a question that's open to empirical research. You'd have to ask people why they throw them, and if you do believe in things like the unconscious and the choice to lie, this kind of research would be by no means objective.
There are other fields of human research for these questions. They're called metaphysics, ethics, philosophy, theology, etc.


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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle

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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: ]
    #2029744 -

this whole thing suggests to me some of the themes in taoist\buddhist thought about non-action and about the nature of time.

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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: ]
    #2029748 -

so... you dont believe in souls. I dont know, thats all im gonna say about that. I really question free will sometimes too. Even if there were a thing such as a supernatural power, and they knew, controlled, connected to everything .Wouldnt we then be a simple extension of that. And still have no free will, because the creator choose for us to be here and live this life. To me the idea of not having free will doesnt have to restrict itself to there being a simple material universe. The case could be argued the same on either side. Maybe we just have the illusion of free choice as a means for escaping and or alluding a bleak existence. Maybe it keeps our species from dying off, and therefore we are not as intelligent as we seem to think we are.

"if something which is not part of the material world can exert force over something that is, this should be enough to suggest to anyone a breach in the laws of conservation of mass and energy. "

how is that so? All the energy is there... just because we cant quantify it doesnt mean that the existance of outside forces is not applicable. our understanding is limited by what we know and what we can formulate with the information that we have, along with our reason to judge and understand those factors. Because we cant see the connection between those forces doesnt mean they are not there... but then again just because we can speculate doesnt mean they are. IM drawn back to my limited position of understanding and information... i just dont have the the capability to understand. Maybe its not possible, maybe it is, but i guess you can only find that out for yourself.


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What?

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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Zero7a1]
    #2029802 -

"all matter\energy in the universe (and i do believe that this includes all there is...) follows a specific and ordered pattern of behavior. it is not random, nor chaotic... it is predetermined...

i do not see why the matter and energy inside of our skulls (which is where i believe conciousness comes from) should be any exception to this."

They aren't. You never heard me talking of a soul that wasn't itself made of energy.

Can we as a human race say we know all the forms of energy there are? Can we honestly say we have a grasp on how something as unlikely as consciousness (not only unlikely, but it occurs in every human, and there's roughly six billion of us!)is even possible? Can we perceive all dimensions perhaps? If your answer to these questions is no, which I suspect, then you'll probably agree with me that most of what is said on the nature of consciousness is speculation. I've just expressed my view on the matter, so far.


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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle

Edited by Alan Stone (10/21/03 06:21 PM)

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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Alan Stone]
    #2029821 -

How do you know conciousness is unlikely?

We don't understand everything, nor are we claiming we do.

Things are either perfectly ordered, or they are random. They cannot be inbetween, because once one tiny factor is randomized, then it has an effect on every other particle in the universe.



--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Alan Stone]
    #2029959 -

ok... so free will is inconsistant with what we currently know about the universe...

barring some sort of supernatural energy force, it cannot exist.

an orderly universe cannot give rise to free will.

if it does exist, it is the result of some kind of intelligent energy in the universe.

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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: ]
    #2029976 -

Even with this supernatural energy source, I'm not sure exactly what free will is supposed to be.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Phluck]
    #2030286 -

Quote:
The only possibilities that have been brought up at all are total order, or randomness. Neither of these is free will.

When someone has disagreed with either of those, they say that the third possibility is "free will". When asked to define it, they mention things like "god", or "nature's flow of energy", but they fail to explain what they mean by these things.



Ok. Free-will would then be an ability to manipulate matter with your mind. I'm not talking about "bending spoons with your mind", but if the mind consists and operates through chemicals and atoms and such, I suggest that free-will creates the order of these chemicals, and causes and directs their courses. So, what IS this thing? What IS this spark of omnipotence over one's own mind? To know WHAT IT IS, would be to know what GOD is, what LIFE itself IS, and as far as I know this knowledge is beyond the current scope of human understanding and comprehension. Just because we cannot fathom it however, does not mean that it doesn't exist. Furthermore, if the mind is just a group of chemicals, then we should be able to assemble a human being in a laboratory from basic chemicals off of a shelf, and he/she should spontaneously come alive and start breathing on his/her own. What type of music would this person like? We also should be able to create a "virtual brain" by mapping a human brain and substituting electronic synapses in a computer for the real ones in the model brain. Would this computer then become self aware? Would it have free-will? I say No! Why? Because life is NOT just a set of chemicals properly arranged, there IS something else. The universe need not be either random, or totally ordered. When a cue ball on a pool table hits an object ball, the reaction can be predicted by the direction, speed, angle, spin, and point of contact. This is not random, but is not total order either, because the shot might miss. It is through careful aim, and a well executed shot that the ball will sink. There will be a PURPOSE to the interaction of that cue ball and that object ball. So perhaps is the nature of the universe. perhaps a "big bang" was like the break on a pool table, lacking total order, and yet not totally random. The purpose being just to spread out matter into the universe. Then perhaps a more specific re-organization of matter took place in the formation of the Earth and the life which exists on it. Earth ball in the corner pocket! And perhaps we now have the same order of control over matter, only just the matter which exists in our own minds, not external matter. There then is not total order, nor randomness, but matter is like clay which we can mold with the power of our free will. In such respect we are then gods, just not as powerful as the god(s) which created the universe and the Earth. And we also cannot fathom what life IS. If we could, we could then create it by sheer will of mind, and that is not our place in the universe to do so. In other words, God kept a secret or two for him/her/itself, for whatever reason he/she/it did so.


--------------------
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Phluck]
    #2030474 -

Free will is freedom to do and think as you choose, under the number one law of the universe, free will. Just because you are more likely to choose one thing over another based on previous experience, does not mean that you are bound to that decision, or that it is set in stone. You have the free will to bind yourself to past experience, or not. You have the free will to do whatever you want. When you start using your free will to interfere with other sovereign beings free will, that's a whole other can 'o worms.


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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2030536 -

Ok. Free-will would then be an ability to manipulate matter with your mind. I'm not talking about "bending spoons with your mind", but if the mind consists and operates through chemicals and atoms and such, I suggest that free-will creates the order of these chemicals, and causes and directs their courses.

i would say that consciousness does not create the movement, the movement creates consciousness, and the movement is created by previous movement.

if consciousness creates the movement, what is creating consciousness?

and if consciousness is creating the movement, instead of caused by it, why can consciousness alone move chemicals inside your brain, but not bend a spoon, blow out a candle, or even shift a speck of dust?

does it somehow only affect the events inside of our skulls?

and why would it, even if it could?... if it exists independently of these events, it seems odd that we'd have brains in our heads at all, especially ones as complex as they are...

Furthermore, if the mind is just a group of chemicals, then we should be able to assemble a human being in a laboratory from basic chemicals off of a shelf, and he/she should spontaneously come alive and start breathing on his/her own. What type of music would this person like? We also should be able to create a "virtual brain" by mapping a human brain and substituting electronic synapses in a computer for the real ones in the model brain. Would this computer then become self aware? Would it have free-will? I say No! Why? Because life is NOT just a set of chemicals properly arranged, there IS something else.

just because something is too complicated for us to build doesn't mean that it isn't made of regular ol' matter. we cannot create a living cell, nor so much as a strand of DNA. there are many things which we cannot create at this time... but our level of technology has no implications over the "material-ness" of the things we might seek to create...

we can't build a brain, much less a whole human being... so what? there are alot of things we cannot build.

When a cue ball on a pool table hits an object ball, the reaction can be predicted by the direction, speed, angle, spin, and point of contact. This is not random, but is not total order either, because the shot might miss.

correct.

It is through careful aim, and a well executed shot that the ball will sink. There will be a PURPOSE to the interaction of that cue ball and that object ball.

let's follow the chain of events in reverse.

ball sinks in hole
ball is travels over the table surface, obeying specific rules of physics
ball is struck by cue, again, totally in order with the laws of physics
muscle contractions push cue
nerve impulses cause muscles to contract
nerve impules originate in brain
conscious decision, and intelligent action, caused by chemical and electrical events in brain, initiate nerve impulse to contract muscle
... and the chain continues, all the way back to the beginning of time...

you see? if we assume that consciousness is caused solely by material conditions, this entire progression of events can be traced all the way back...

if you're a believer in some sort of higher intelligence, then i suppose that free will is a possibility.

i am just conjecturing that in the absence of such a higher power, free will cannot exist.

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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2030661 -

also...

if consciousness is not caused by the chemicals in our brains, it's awfully strange that changing the chemistry via drugs can so drastically alter consciousness...


hmm...

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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: ]
    #2030894 -

Quote:
i would say that consciousness does not create the movement, the movement creates consciousness, and the movement is created by previous movement.

if consciousness creates the movement, what is creating consciousness?



You could also ask "If the movement crates the conciousness, what is causing the movement?

Quote:
and if consciousness is creating the movement, instead of caused by it, why can consciousness alone move chemicals inside your brain, but not bend a spoon, blow out a candle, or even shift a speck of dust?



Maybe it can in certain circumstances. However, for practical purposes, the reason would most likely seem to be that our conciousness is MEANT to move matter within our brains, because in our brains is where conciousness exists.

Quote:
just because something is too complicated for us to build doesn't mean that it isn't made of regular ol' matter. we cannot create a living cell, nor so much as a strand of DNA. there are many things which we cannot create at this time... but our level of technology has no implications over the "material-ness" of the things we might seek to create...

we can't build a brain, much less a whole human being... so what? there are alot of things we cannot build.



But IF science WERE to manufacture a human being, do you believe it would spontaneously come alive?

Quote:
if you're a believer in some sort of higher intelligence, then i suppose that free will is a possibility.

i am just conjecturing that in the absence of such a higher power, free will cannot exist.




That is correct. I believe that without a higher intelligence free will could not exist. And I do believe that both exist. Also I believe that intelligence itself would seem to equal free will. After all, what is intelligence if it isnt the ability to think and act in ways unique to oneself (free will)? Or, if our every thought and decision is determined by the positions and movements of atoms and chemicals, what sort of intelligence do we really have? That would make us imbeciles entirely subject to the movement of chemicals.


--------------------
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Phluck]
    #2030941 -

argh I just wrote like several pages of stuff but its way too unorganized..

I think my main point was that the illusion of free-will comes from evolution itself... I think this is what evolution is about - isolating probabilities from possibilities in order to "make it so." We [mankind], having isolated more probabilities from possibilities for general "activity" or "experience" than any other species on this planet, feel very very free because we observe so much possibility and activity through our conscious awareness (as is part of our job as a part of evolution), we see so much other activity going on that is almost completely irrelevant and possibly even harmful for our individual paths, it distracts us from our unconscious mind and from our main course that we sometimes don't even recognize we're a part of systems which are tightly woven into the fabric of "the everything."

In my opinion, thinking that we have "free will," thinking that we can go against the grain of the universe and take charge for ourselves, is very absurd..... Do people really believe we have somehow escaped the cosmic order of things?

hmm and having said that, allow me to head back to an earlier statement of mine, just so I can acknowledge my own contradiction: "I'm not going to try any convincing"

oh yeah, Strumpling?


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

Edited by Strumpling (10/21/03 11:08 PM)

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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2030955 -

You could also ask "If the movement crates the conciousness, what is causing the movement?

preceding movement, caused by preceding movement, caused by preceding movement, ad infinitum.

Maybe it can in certain circumstances. However, for practical purposes, the reason would most likely seem to be that our conciousness is MEANT to move matter within our brains, because in our brains is where conciousness exists.

so why does it move it around in our heads? it realy shouldn't need to... at least it shouldn't need to move it as much as it does.

why is the brain so complex?

i'd really like to get opinions on this matter from people in medicice and physics. i think a neuroscientist might have some good input.

But IF science WERE to manufacture a human being, do you believe it would spontaneously come alive?

you cannot do that, for reasons that render even hypothetical guesswork fruitless.

i will say this: i think it will someday be possible to create intelliegent computers that exhibit what seems to be "free will". perhaps then the question will be answered for sure...

That would make us imbeciles entirely subject to the movement of chemicals.

basically, yes.

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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: ]
    #2030958 -

Quote:
also...

if consciousness is not caused by the chemicals in our brains, it's awfully strange that changing the chemistry via drugs can so drastically alter consciousness...


hmm...



Very interesting point, and one which should definately be considered. However, your point does not prove that the conciousness is being created by the chemicals. I suggest that the conciousness is moving these chemicals into an order which matches the conciousness. In other words, the conciousness is keeping these chemicals syncronised with itself. Therefore disorganizing these chemicals could cause corrosponding injury to the conciousness.


--------------------
Hi how's it going, wanna kick Heroin basically painlessly on your own, in your own house, without any government "help" ,or the "help" of a crazy condescending, judgmental medical doctor? Read this:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=42&Number=7342616&page=0&fpart=all


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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: ]
    #2030974 -

The problem with your idea of determinism is that it assumes that one's experiences and personality will inevitably lead them to one conclusion when making a decision. Yet this seems to assume that all decisions are easy. Often the person making a decision is truely confused as to what they should do, and they choose a decision at random.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Shop: North Spore Cultivation Supplies, Injection Grain Bag   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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