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Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Offlineteen
Yeee Haaww

Registered: 02/13/04
Posts: 242
Last seen: 15 years, 11 months
Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Phluck]
    #2347280 - 02/17/04 09:01 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

My view on free will comes down the the Newtonian law

"Every action has an equal an opposite reaction"

If you understand what that means, then you'll realise free will is an illusion.


--------------------
Don't give me that load of bunk~!


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InvisibletrendalM
J♠
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Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,793
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: teen]
    #2347471 - 02/17/04 10:03 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Don't forget that Newton was wrong.

Or, more accurately: Newton was only approximately correct. :wink:


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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OfflineFrog
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Registered: 10/22/03
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: silversoul7]
    #2347504 - 02/17/04 10:18 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:





ROFL!!!


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Offlineteen
Yeee Haaww

Registered: 02/13/04
Posts: 242
Last seen: 15 years, 11 months
Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: trendal]
    #2348422 - 02/18/04 03:07 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Don't forget that Newton was wrong.

Or, more accurately: Newton was only approximately correct




he was wrong about the laws of motion?


--------------------
Don't give me that load of bunk~!


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OfflineThe_Visionaire
Torch

Registered: 02/16/04
Posts: 111
Loc: Indra's Net
Last seen: 13 years, 11 months
Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: teen]
    #2348652 - 02/18/04 04:43 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Only approximately wrong. The real message of quantum mechanics is not indeterminism and uncertainty. It is wholeness. In a newtonian universe the whole could be regarded as a constellation of the spacial positions of the parts in space. This is impossible in quantum mechanics as the quantum numbers determining the wavefunction affecting the whole depend on a lot more; quantified nmbers such as p,l and s (I am not getting into this now).

But I agree with you that every thing that happens, happens causally. I wrote in another tread here (mathematics, logic, emotion and the universe) why I still think there is free will.

Physics is by no way complete. I think a not-so-far discovery would relate to consciousness and that consiousness is not something that is contained in our heads, consciousness pervade the universe. We as an integral part of the universe are not cogs in a chess game following the will of the grand unmoved mover, or the mechanics of a horrible machine out of controll. We ARE the universe.

If we speak of free will as something that is supposed to be happenig quite apart from anything else, it has no meaning. But more subtle 'layers' may affect the more unrefined in a seemingly acausal way. My more sublte thought may affect the movement of my hand as an example (I am not talking about a reflex here). If we only think in 3-D it is really hard to see why and where the signal travelling to the hand came from. (I suspect that these primal expressions of will has their origin in the domains of the brain subject to quantum laws.)

Similarly a profound and subtle insight might affect my entire thought system. Why did this happen? Is realization a mechanical process? My own experiences with insight is that it comes in a flash. Later I can use words to express it, but the insight itself arrives suddenly, which indicates that it is beyond time, which again indicates that it is 'above' matter as we think of it.


--------------------
There are no differences between men and gods,
one blends softly causal into the other.
-Frank Herbert, Dune.


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OfflineFrog
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Registered: 10/22/03
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: The_Visionaire]
    #2353464 - 02/19/04 04:16 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

>>But I agree with you that every thing that happens, happens causally. I wrote in another tread here (mathematics, logic, emotion and the universe) why I still think there is free will.

Why do you think there is still "free will"?


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineThe_Visionaire
Torch

Registered: 02/16/04
Posts: 111
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Frog]
    #2353661 - 02/19/04 06:37 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Well, I think that while a given level is causal, the overall effect of the totality of levels, each one qualitatively different from the others, can never be fully taken into account (and by the way there are an infinity of levels). Thus complete determinism can not be conceived of, yet each level is determined by algoritms pertaining to this specific level.

The classical guidance law of the particles is in quantum mechanics modified by a quantum potential. This quantum potential has quantitatively different properties than a classical potential. It is non-local, that is, it affects the whole of the universe INSTANTLY (faster than light signaling). When generalized to a field theory there will emerge a super quantum potential that affects the quantum potential in similar manner that the quantum potential affects the general classical laws of motion.

There is no reason to think that this process ends here. One may postulate an infinity of such levels, each level has the ability to affect others in subtle manner although the guidance laws inherent in each level is determined.

These thoughts are developed by the late quantum physicists David Bohm, not only physicist, but a uniqe philosopher.
I would recommend his book "Unfolding meaning" as a starter, where a map of reality is created in a non-mathematical easy-to-grasp way.

BOHM SHAKE, SHAKE, THE ROOM :cool:


--------------------
There are no differences between men and gods,
one blends softly causal into the other.
-Frank Herbert, Dune.


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...
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Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,954
Loc: You can't spell fungus wi...
Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: The_Visionaire]
    #2353799 - 02/19/04 08:49 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I think playing a brand new RPG video game can demonstrate free will.



--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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OfflineThe_Visionaire
Torch

Registered: 02/16/04
Posts: 111
Loc: Indra's Net
Last seen: 13 years, 11 months
Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2353871 - 02/19/04 09:32 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Naa.. those games tends to disfavor evil players. I want to be evil, but it doesn`t really pay off  :devil:
But then again, that evil doesn`t pay off in the long run may be a fair model of reality too.


--------------------
There are no differences between men and gods,
one blends softly causal into the other.
-Frank Herbert, Dune.


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OfflineLightningfractal
Nutcase

Registered: 06/24/03
Posts: 14,899
Loc: Heaven and Hell
Last seen: 8 years, 11 months
Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2518804 - 04/02/04 01:49 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

I think playing a brand new RPG video game can demonstrate free will.




Arg! I love video games! :thumbup:


--------------------
Hi how's it going, wanna kick Heroin basically painlessly on your own, in your own house, without any government "help" ,or the "help" of a crazy condescending, judgmental medical doctor? Read this:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=42&Number=7342616&page=0&fpart=all



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OfflineLightningfractal
Nutcase

Registered: 06/24/03
Posts: 14,899
Loc: Heaven and Hell
Last seen: 8 years, 11 months
Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2903173 - 07/18/04 07:51 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Arrrrrg! THere's that damned thread again!!!!


--------------------
Hi how's it going, wanna kick Heroin basically painlessly on your own, in your own house, without any government "help" ,or the "help" of a crazy condescending, judgmental medical doctor? Read this:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=42&Number=7342616&page=0&fpart=all



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Invisiblekaiowas
lest we baguette
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Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 5,501
Loc: oz
Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2903184 - 07/18/04 07:53 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

haha I was thinking about this thread earlier today.  i think it would be very cool to read over it, as I think I will


"there's no blood coming out of this stone"

HAHAHAHAHAHAH :lol:


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Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.


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OfflineLightningfractal
Nutcase

Registered: 06/24/03
Posts: 14,899
Loc: Heaven and Hell
Last seen: 8 years, 11 months
Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: kaiowas]
    #2903190 - 07/18/04 07:55 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

read it again, for the very first time...lol


--------------------
Hi how's it going, wanna kick Heroin basically painlessly on your own, in your own house, without any government "help" ,or the "help" of a crazy condescending, judgmental medical doctor? Read this:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=42&Number=7342616&page=0&fpart=all



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Anonymous

Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Phluck]
    #2903222 - 07/18/04 08:03 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

YES WE HAVE FREE WILL.

wtf?  :confused:


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OfflineLightningfractal
Nutcase

Registered: 06/24/03
Posts: 14,899
Loc: Heaven and Hell
Last seen: 8 years, 11 months
Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: ]
    #2903496 - 07/18/04 09:34 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I had the free-will to bump this thread after months of inactivity. There was no quantum mechanics that pre-determined me to do it on this particular day..

..hence free will.


--------------------
Hi how's it going, wanna kick Heroin basically painlessly on your own, in your own house, without any government "help" ,or the "help" of a crazy condescending, judgmental medical doctor? Read this:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=42&Number=7342616&page=0&fpart=all



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OfflineZenGecko
enthusiast
Registered: 11/02/03
Posts: 285
Last seen: 8 years, 3 months
Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: The_Visionaire]
    #2904646 - 07/19/04 08:34 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

The universe may have free will if it is a conscience entity, and we too by default if we are a part of this collective conscience. But we are a very small part so the overwhelming will of the system. Our will... will always be ignored in favor of the will of the system as a whole (circumstances) unless our will is in line with the will of the system at the moment of an action, so in our everyday lives we still have no free will in a practical sense, we cant use it...so what good is it?  I expanded greatly on this thinking in the other huge free will post if you wanna dicuss it further, this thread can die now for all i care :wink: Oh also keep in mind that im in fact arguing also that the notions of choice and freedom are themselves illusions, so saying look i just made a choice is no proof at all for free atleast not in a logical practical sense. Now go to the other thread, if u must :wink:

Sincerely,
That which is, and has no choice but to be.


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Anonymous

Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2905375 - 07/19/04 02:23 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Our will... will always be ignored in favor of the will of the system as a whole (circumstances) unless our will is in line with the will of the system at the moment of an action




:confused: and where is this line drawn?

it goes deeper than what you anti-free willers even know.  you think you were just thrown up in this bitch with no say?  think again.  we're here to make our own choices in the situations we find ourselves in.  the life YOU chose offers the best situations for your spiritual growth, no matter what choices you make.  and the choices you make determine your future as well.  the past does indeed determine your future, but i dont see how the hell people can lay up here and say they had no prior choice in their past so their future has no free will because their past surroundings made them who they are today, BULLSHIT.  you always have had a choice since day 1. and always will.  regardless of what you went through.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,793
Loc: Ontario, Canada Flag
Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: ]
    #2905417 - 07/19/04 02:44 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

It's easy: cause-and-effect. The choices you make are not instantaneous...they are the result of that string of events through the past.

If someone can show me just one case where cause-and-effect does not apply in this universe...then maybe I can accept the concept of free-will.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
Beyond
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Registered: 05/07/04
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: trendal]
    #2905490 - 07/19/04 03:19 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Just randomly stop, before you do something and then do exactly the opposite.
Voila...
(I think this has been said before)


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #2905513 - 07/19/04 03:32 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

That still obeys cause-and-effect :wink:

If I did do that (randomly stop and do the opposite), then I would have done so because you asked me to. That isn't free-will...


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


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