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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2025639 - 10/20/03 03:04 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

but mankind is not perfect... If you flipped a quarter 1000 times and logged the heads/tails results, then "rewinded life" the results the second time would be different because you would never be able to flip them exctly the same way again.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2025665 - 10/20/03 03:12 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Lightningfractal said:
but mankind is not perfect... If you flipped a quarter 1000 times and logged the heads/tails results, then "rewinded life" the results the second time would be different because you would never be able to flip them exctly the same way again.




But, as Pluck stated, NONE of the variables would change. If nothing ever changed, then of course it would turn out exactly the same. If you have a movie, and you rewind it, does the exact same thing happen in the movie every time? Of course.

This doesn't say anything about free will, of course. The only way that anything would change if some of the variables changed. Like if we were conscious that life was being replayed and that we were aware of everything we ever did in the previous life.

How many people here have seen the movie Groundhog Day with Bill Murray?
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2025695 - 10/20/03 03:19 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Free will is bullshit




Although you are free to make such a statement, I would consider itr a waste of the free will you have been given. What purpose does it serve to come to this conclusion?

Quote:

What I'm saying is, the very idea of free will makes no sense.




why must everything make sense? It has long been a belief of mine that determinism is something science invented in order to make the universe easier to understand and control. Taking that variable out of the eqution makes everything work out nicely on paper, in the same way that taking greed out of the equation makes communism work out so nicely on paper.

Quit trying to understand everything in absolutes, man. Free will is not a universal rule, it is a sphere of influence. The same can be said of determinism. Why are you trying to set universal rules in a universe that wont stand still? thats just silly.


--------------------
'You can go to a hospital
Get yourself cleaned out.'


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Offlinesirreal
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Phluck]
    #2025730 - 10/20/03 03:27 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Who chose to piss in the sink just now?

Me, or the drunk person next to me? :lol: 


--------------------
I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2025756 - 10/20/03 03:34 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

So basically the question has changed from "Is free-will real?" to "Is life like a movie or not?" And I suggest that if life is indeed like a movie, and therefore if you could rewind it the same things would happen when you press play again, then the future must be just an unviewed portion of the movie of life, and therefore life's course is unalterable. Well, if life's course is unalterable, then what need is there for activism, or trying to change anything at all. Girlfriends should also just fall into your lap, jobs should seek YOU even if you do nothing to look for one. Money should just simply appear in your wallet, if that was what the movie was about. In fact, none of us need do anything at all, ever, and life will be the same.

Or else there IS free-will, what we do does matter, we CAN change what will be, and it is up to us. I believe the second notion. I also believe that because this second notion is true, that life is NOT pre-destined, like a movie, then if it could be re-winded, the posibility of different results would also be assured. Why? Why does life even exist at all? Life itself is irrational, and it's existance illogical. Free-will is being god-like, that we can decide for ourselves at any time, regardless of circumstances and oftentimes IN SPITE OF THEM. That is the meaning of my coke machine analogy above. Our decisions need not jive with circumstances, in fact, our decisions CREATE out circumstances, instead.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2025844 - 10/20/03 03:58 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Lightningfractal said:
So basically the question has changed from "Is free-will real?" to "Is life like a movie or not?" And I suggest that if life is indeed like a movie, and therefore if you could rewind it the same things would happen when you press play again, then the future must be just an unviewed portion of the movie of life, and therefore life's course is unalterable. Well, if life's course is unalterable, then what need is there for activism, or trying to change anything at all. Girlfriends should also just fall into your lap, jobs should seek YOU even if you do nothing to look for one. Money should just simply appear in your wallet, if that was what the movie was about. In fact, none of us need do anything at all, ever, and life will be the same.




You are incredibly missing what it is that I said.

Did I say that life was unalterable? Fuck no! What I said is that if, at the end of your life, everything that happened in your life was rewound, NO VARIABLES CHANGING (as Pluck said), then of course life would play out exactly the same, as NOTHING HAS CHANGED, and that this, of course, said nothing for or agansit free will. (remember, NOTHING HAS CHANGED)

Quote:


I also believe that because this second notion is true, that life is NOT pre-destined, like a movie, then if it could be re-winded, the posibility of different results would also be assured.




Nope. If we took what happened today, rewound it, and then hit play, it would happen exactly the same. If you hit rewind, nothing is changing. What has already happened is only being replayed.

And, of course, this has nothing to do with free will. When they do an instant replay in a football game, does something have the possibility of happening differently? Nope.

Now, back to the debate of free will. It is only attachments to what happened in the past that allow the past to make decisions for us. While what happened in the past brought us where we are, it in no way has to influence our decisions now. In NO way.
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineAnnomM
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2025856 - 10/20/03 04:00 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

> "'Well, if life's course is unalterable, then what need is there for activism, or trying to change anything at all. Girlfriends should also just fall into your lap, jobs should seek YOU even if you do nothing to look for one. Money should just simply appear in your wallet, if that was what the movie was about. In fact, none of us need do anything at all, ever, and life will be the same."

No, your conclusion is wrong. If we don't do anything at all, life won't be the same! And we are not able to do nothing because we have no free will. That's the funny part about this. (And if we start doing nothing at all, it is not because of our free will, but because the script of the movie:)




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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Annom]
    #2025882 - 10/20/03 04:08 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

But life is NOT a movie, and cannot BE rewound, and if there is no free-will, and no matter what happens, "it was because of the script" then who exactly is running the show? Who wrote the script?


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Annom]
    #2025893 - 10/20/03 04:20 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Okay, I have been doing some thinking, had a person throw in some thoughts that got me thinking from a different perspective (if ya'll don't realize how much perspective effects everything, it really does)...

Free will IS an illusion, I now think. Sure, when you are living your life, free will exists to us. We can move our arm this way and we thought the thought that moved the arm, and there you go, free will.

However, we arrived in this moment where we use our free will due to every action that has happened in history. It makes me think back to Chaos theory, the butterfly's wings creating the windstorm...

The Big Bang. Particles flew this way, that way. The way that they flew ended up creating the world that we live in now, as it is. Everything happened the way it happened because it had to happen that way.

Even if one lives in a higher state of consciousness, and makes decisions without influence from whatever happened in the past, those decisions are still occuring because it had to happen that way....
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineAnnomM
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2025930 - 10/20/03 04:34 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I believe that the universe is a closed deterministic system in which everything can, ultimately, be explained by purely physical causation. You believe in free will, and we both like to discuss it. I only said that your proof of "why no free will" wasn't correct.

> But life is NOT a movie, and cannot BE rewound, and if there is no free-will, and no matter what happens, "it was because of the script" then who exactly is running the show? Who wrote the script?

Agreed, life is not a movie and it cannot be rewound. I am not only talking about life, but about the whole universe. Does a dog have a free will? And a fly? A single-celled organisms? Who wrote their script if they have no free will? Who is running their show? If earth evaporates, the whole universe is still there, without a free will, but the show keeps playing. We are just part of that show, like a dog, a fly, a stone, etc.


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Phluck]
    #2025943 - 10/20/03 04:39 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I'm with you, Phluck :smile:

I think free-will is an illusion brought on by our thoughts evolving through time.....

We're basically numbers running through a formula, IMO.. Its just the playing out (completion?) of a process that is part of a larger process and so on..

The closer to the present we are, the more it feels like we can mess with "destiny" or whatever you'd like to call it........ the present seems so much more flexible than the past and the future but it is all already set in stone - since we can't fully "sense" the past or the future.

Another way to look at it, though, is that we do have free will and that's our job! Terence Mckenna once said we're all authors of this giant story called History, and that if you'd like to be a main character you can simply write yourself in and then live out the roll you prepared for yourself (at your own free will? one could certainly argue against that I suppose: "you were MEANT to picture things like that so you'd have the illusion of freedom"), or if you don't want to be very spotlighted in this story of History we are writing, then you could just write yourself in as an "extra."

I'm still not 100% sure either way, are YOU?! :wink:


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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OfflineAnnomM
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2025970 - 10/20/03 04:57 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

>  (if ya'll don't realize how much perspective effects everything, it really does)...
Yep, it does  :cool: I agree with most you said in you last post.

Interesting links:
http://www.determinism.com/05042002.shtml
http://www.determinism.com/ 


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OfflineAnnomM
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Annom]
    #2025991 - 10/20/03 05:03 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

What is your/the definition of free will?  :confused:

I would say: to act free of all causes, but not randomly.


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Annom]
    #2026000 - 10/20/03 05:07 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I believe that dogs have enough intellect to have free will. observing dogs, it appears that they have full choice in how long they remain to sniff one particular piece of shit before deciding to move on to enjoy the next one. As for flies, they would appear to be more automated, at best they make no "complex" decisions, but perhaps rely almost entirely on a sort of pre-programming we like to call "instinct", or maybe they simply exist within the spirit of intelligence, which animates them soul-less. Perhaps this is how germs go about their days as well.

I have a theory, that life on this planet exists on three basic orders. The lowest being soul-less creatures, void of any identity. these would include germs, viruses, and perhaps insects. The second middle order consists of creatures with concepts of self, and therefore identities, or "souls". These being the mammals, and other various creatures with higher brain function. The top order consisting only of human beings, with the distinction from the second order being a limited ability to create new that which did not exist before. Pocketwatches, computers, and also ideas and conceps. Because of this added burden, and our inability to be responsible with such power, we as humans have also destroyed or polluted the existance of many other creatures, as well as our own.

We also sit around and arrogantly ponder life's great mysteries on computer bulletin boards, while we feast on the bodies of murdered animals, and drink from cups filled through the rape and destruction of nature by the corporations which feed and clothe us. This, I believe, is why the answers to life's great mysteries continue to ever-elude us.


--------------------
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Anonymous

Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Alan Stone]
    #2026122 - 10/20/03 05:46 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Alan Stone said:
Quote:

Phluck said:
Without a _concious_ reason, or without any reason?
Just because you don't understand why you're doing something doesn't mean that your actions were, in fact, random. If they were random, is randomness free will?




Without any reason. It's called a brainfart. If you claim every idea you have has a reason, I ask you how inventions could possibly be made. I ask you how art could be made. I ask you how imagination is possible.
If choice can be random, it is free from determinism, free from cause. Not all choices are random, but if at least one choice is random, free will exists. Something doesn't have to exist all the time to be real. Think of dinosaurs, stars we see in the skies that have exploded a long time ago, etc.




inventions are made as a result of people trying to get around problems they encounter. how often does an inventor just come up with an idea completely at random? its not like inventions or the ideas behind them just come out of nowhere. the initial idea is caused by a need/desire for something that would make life easier/more enjoyable. that idea is then refined using things like physics, mathmatics, research, etc. into something possible. finally, once it has become more concrete, the refined idea is physically created as this invention.

art is a form of expression. again, it doesnt just come out of nowhere. just because someone creates a peice of art that others wouldnt have thought of doesnt mean that its not due to the rest of the artists life or the result of how theyre feeling when they create the work. art is conceived like anything else and is based on the desire to convey some emotion, idea, or concept.

imagination is dramatically impacted by one's mood. despite a seemingly infinite set of possibilities of what someone could imagine, the possibilities you actually think of are going to be dominated and somewhat restricted by mood, environment, past experiences and other factors.

my point is that creating something original by no means implies a random choice or free will. everyone is capable of something original. no two people have lived the same lives, thats impossible. that would require two people to be in the same place at the same time every second of every day. everyone experiences life in a unique way when you get down to it. as a result of a unique perspective, original ideas are created. every decision we make is in result of other decisions we've made in the past, the results of those previous decisions, and current state of mind (which is a result of previous decisions we've made and other people's decisions that have effected us).

im not saying that everyone will come up with a unique idea because of their unique experience of life, only that unique ideas are a result of unique experiences. common ideas are a result of the order that accompanies chaos. for example, listen to an audience' applause, it goes from almost completely chaotic to almost completely synchronus and back to chaotic. same is true with ideas/emotions. despite everyone coming to these ideas/emotions individually, sometimes people come to the same idea/emotion simultaneously.


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Invisiblebandaid
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2026143 - 10/20/03 05:52 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Lightningfractal said:
I believe that dogs have enough intellect to have free will. observing dogs, it appears that they have full choice in how long they remain to sniff one particular piece of shit before deciding to move on to enjoy the next one.




plz explain how this appears to you

Quote:

The second middle order consists of creatures with concepts of self, and therefore identities, or "souls". These being the mammals, and other various creatures with higher brain function.




The only mammals on this planet from the science shows Ive seen that have a concept of self is the chimpanzee and ofcourse us, where did you hear something different?.



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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: ]
    #2026163 - 10/20/03 06:02 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

A lot of people have trouble understanding that they have a subconcious.

I have a friend who told me that he didn't like a certain kind of beer. It was a fairly normal lager, not too distinguisable from Budweiser or something like that. I told him that the reason he didn't like it was probably because of some subconcious association, and not because of the taste. Maybe even because it came in a green instead of brown bottle. He insisted that he didn't like it one bit, and even seemed pretty ticked off that I thought he wouldn't fully understand his reasoning.

So, I poured him a glass, and told him that it was the beer he'd bought for himself, a brand he enjoyed. He took a sip, and said it tasted great.

Everyone's mind has tons going on in it, and we're only aware of a tiny fraction of our thoughts.

For every decision we make even seemingly random ones, there are millions of factors taking place. When you reach "randomly" for the button the coke machine there are dozens of factors that could determine where your hand lands. Your balance, your height, etc...

If every factor were recreated, from the temperature, to your mood, to what you'd eaten that day, to the slightest breeze, then you would certainly make the same choice twice.

The clairify why I say free will makes no sense;

My computer sometimes behaves irrationally. It will crash, windows will pop up for no apparent reason, you know the kind of thing I'm talking about.

How is this different from our own irrational actions? The only other possiblilty I can imagine is that we occasionally do things that are "random".


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: bandaid]
    #2026177 - 10/20/03 06:08 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

"The only mammals on this planet from the science shows Ive seen that have a concept of self is the chimpanzee and ofcourse us, where did you hear something different?."

A 'sense of self' is not something we can measure. We are able to test some animals, with say, a mirror, but not recognizing oneself in the mirror does not necessarily mean that an animal lacks a sense of self.

We have no idea what a dog's sense of self is.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Phluck]
    #2026187 - 10/20/03 06:11 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Why try to convince us there's no free will? If there's no such thing, then you'll never convince anyone, because we're predestined to either believe in it or not believe in it.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: bandaid]
    #2026197 - 10/20/03 06:15 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lightningfractal said:
I believe that dogs have enough intellect to have free will. observing dogs, it appears that they have full choice in how long they remain to sniff one particular piece of shit before deciding to move on to enjoy the next one.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



plz explain how this appears to you





I have seen a dog turn around to get a second sniff of something because he appeared to change his mind about how nifty neat-o it smelled. This indicates at least some basic decision making.

Also, it's quite obvious that the dog is having a good time. Does a fly have a good time? Does a germ like rock and roll? Having a good time goes right along with free will. Have you ever seen a dog smile?


Quote:

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The second middle order consists of creatures with concepts of self, and therefore identities, or "souls". These being the mammals, and other various creatures with higher brain function.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



The only mammals on this planet from the science shows Ive seen that have a concept of self is the chimpanzee and ofcourse us, where did you hear something different?.






As I said before this is my THEORY, and is unproven and non-specific. I don't even believe I have it completely correct, but I think I'm on to something.. I believe it is a basic outline of what is. I'm not sure which creatures have souls and which ones don't, or if a mosquito is evil. Or if cockroaches are great mathmeticians. I'm just suggesting my theory of the different general classes of existance.


--------------------
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