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Offlinelouco
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Registered: 09/26/02
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you think you have free will but you dont.
    #1546307 - 05/13/03 07:32 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

everything you do, every move you make is just a reaction of your brain to the world you've been shown. you dont choose to read this thread you read it because the reaction of your brain during all those years brought you to read it.
this happens because if you reborn, for example, at the same place, the same time, the same parents, same body, same friends, same thoughts you would react to the same words, same moves, same drugs, same thread.

so actually our 'intelligence' is a tool developed to be aware of our reaction.

or maybe i'm just too stoned..
your thoughts?


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OfflineEarth_Droid
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Re: you think you have free will but you dont. [Re: louco]
    #1546318 - 05/13/03 07:36 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

I disagree with most of what you said. Of course your choices are reactions from your brain, but they come after thinking about them. In a state of Samdi enlightenment you can choose your own realities and re imprint your conditioning and thought processes. At the end you said intelligence is a tool developed to be aware of our reactions. Well if this is the case wouldn't that awareness of our reactions be the free will that you have? That is why you have more freedom in highter states of awareness.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: you think you have free will but you dont. [Re: louco]
    #1546347 - 05/13/03 07:43 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

oh no, not a another one..

are you saying that there are billions of people in the world suffering the exact same delusion? are you sure? that's quite an assertion... any evidence?



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OfflineStrumpling
Neuronaut
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
Loc: Hyperspace
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Re: you think you have free will but you dont. [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1546400 - 05/13/03 08:00 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

I have no doubt that billions of people in the world are suffering the exact same delusions


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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OfflineDeiymiyan
I AM

Registered: 04/17/03
Posts: 656
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Re: you think you have free will but you dont. [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1546402 - 05/13/03 08:01 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

"are you saying that there are billions of people in the world suffering the exact same delusion? "
----------------


I'd be inclined to agree with the title of this thread... with "fineprint" included...

At this point in time, I wouldn't say delision..... rather ILLUSION.

Perhaps subject to change in the future.



--------------------


Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..



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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: you think you have free will but you dont. [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #1546418 - 05/13/03 08:07 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

alright then, what's the point of this grand illusion?


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: you think you have free will but you dont. [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1546463 - 05/13/03 08:25 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

who said there was a point?


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: you think you have free will but you dont. [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1546471 - 05/13/03 08:26 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

I don't think there's a point to the illusion.....

The illusion is simply a result of our subjectivity, our separation from the whole through the hardware (and software) of the mind


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


Edited by Strumpling (05/13/03 08:27 PM)


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OfflinePenguin
You can't be me I'm a Rockstar

Registered: 02/10/02
Posts: 1,830
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Re: you think you have free will but you dont. [Re: Strumpling]
    #1546490 - 05/13/03 08:31 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

i know that I have no free-will. There are things out there more powerful than I. I dont speak of Gods but of coincidences and deja`vu and Wal-Mart...yea. Wal-Mart is evil!!!!

Too bad free-will isn't on a self there.


--------------------
The fear of loss is always greater than the desire for gain


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: you think you have free will but you dont. [Re: Strumpling]
    #1546510 - 05/13/03 08:37 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

so... free will IS an illusion... but there really is no point to it?

is it biological? are we hard-wired to think that we have free will? why?

billions of people are going about their lives with no idea that their brains are playing tricks on them? it's quite a theory, beautiful... almost... everything playing out as it should... events that were predetermined eons ago...

but why? how? can anyone give me a description of how exactly things are "predetermined"? is there a physical mechanism? can you explain it?

I want hard answers from you determinists.


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OfflineDeiymiyan
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Registered: 04/17/03
Posts: 656
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Re: you think you have free will but you dont. [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1546512 - 05/13/03 08:38 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

"are you saying that there are billions of people in the world suffering the exact same delusion"
--------------------

Although, I said Illusion..... you think they are not? You wanna tell me your point?
I've mentionned before how I feel on the subject.

At this stage of the game, I think we are in the learning process part of it.

Not the freedom.

[edit*]- I'm thinking I should clarify a bit.... You can think whatever you want, about whatever you like... The things you actually do, however, might be another story.





--------------------


Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..



Edited by Deiymiyan (05/13/03 08:51 PM)


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: you think you have free will but you dont. [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #1546529 - 05/13/03 08:41 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

honestly, I'm just trying to shift the burden of proof to the determinists, because it seems that you are the ones making wild claims.



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OfflineDeiymiyan
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Re: you think you have free will but you dont. [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1546534 - 05/13/03 08:44 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Thanx for the MIS labeling ! You are not 100 % accurate on it.


--------------------


Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..



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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: you think you have free will but you dont. [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #1546590 - 05/13/03 09:00 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

?
I'm sorry if I mislabled you... I'm speaking to the determists.
I guess you're not 100% determinist...

let me revise what I said... I think the burden of proof is and should be on both sides... I can't prove either one right now. but there is one thing that I experience directly and that is free will.. I do not 'experience' determinism.
I'm inclined to believe what I experience unless someone comes up with some evidence saying otherwise... so that's why I'm trying to shift the burden of proof and asking for some hard evidence of determinism.


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OfflineDrubuShrume
EAT ME - I'm afungi

Registered: 05/14/02
Posts: 449
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Re: you think you have free will but you dont. [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1546630 - 05/13/03 09:16 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

How do you know that the second you die, you never really die, but that second lasts for as long as you've lived, and you live again until that moment you are about to die and re-live your life?? hmmm


--------------------
AH HA....


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Anonymous

Re: you think you have free will but you dont. [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1547137 - 05/14/03 12:42 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

is it biological? are we hard-wired to think that we have free will? why?

yes, its 100% biological. the brain is made up of neurons, and these neurons travel through patterns in our brain... a signal hits one neuron and its electric gradient turns from positive to negative.. charging the neuron and an electric impulse is fired down an axom to another neuron.. where that receives the signal.. and the process continues.... these pathways formulate our thoughts...

now... considering your idea of "you" and "free will".... which is the ability to control your thoughts.... how can you control a cell gradient and make it turn positive or negative, taking into account the mathematical equation that is behind all these processes.....where does "free will" come into play during this equation? can your "free will" defy the laws of nature and cause a neuron to defy mathematics?



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OfflineStrumpling
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Registered: 10/11/02
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Re: you think you have free will but you dont. [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1547244 - 05/14/03 01:38 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

I don't know about the "pre-determined" part anymore, man..

I think it may be similar to how there is a type of equation that maps out the "wave function" of a quantum particle, which will tell you all the possible routes for the particle at a given point in time, but not specifically point out which one - it basically lays out the "rules" and the particle will take one of the routes that fit into this equation to its destination - I think we just have larger "wave functions" with tons more variables since we are organized in a physically "capable" manner and work on an augmented time-scale (we're way slower than ordinary light). Plants could be the same way, which gives way to the seemingly random places that branches or leaves or whatevers will grow from..
Wow I've never really visualized this type of theory in my mind but I guess I'm more into "free-will" now until somebody figures out how these parts of wave functions are chosen by nature.. Either way, I don't know if quantum randomness is really "freedom" anyway, because that may imply that each particle has free-will, which would be fuckin creepy - lol to take it further I could extrapolate that life is simply a means of creating as many "wave function-type" variables as possible on every scale; widening the rules; making the impossibilities possible; the ability to be everything everywhere constantly

rofl I'd better stop here :wink: gee can you tell I just smoked a few bowls? :grin: this might be how some of those weird "buy our weird books and watch for september of 3031" websites get started lol


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


Edited by Strumpling (05/14/03 02:44 AM)


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OfflineRhizoid
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Registered: 01/22/00
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Re: you think you have free will but you dont. [Re: louco]
    #1547421 - 05/14/03 04:33 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Is there any significant difference between these two scenarios:

(1) The reaction of your brain is 100% determined by its previous state, its present inputs, and by new bits of information (called "free will") that didn't exist until now.

(2) The reaction of your brain is 100% determined by its previous state, its present inputs, and by old bits of information that have been hidden and inaccessible until now but were "really" determined by some boundary condition at the beginning of time.


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OfflineEarth_Droid
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Re: you think you have free will but you dont. [Re: ]
    #1547439 - 05/14/03 05:02 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

is it biological? are we hard-wired to think that we have free will? why?

yes, its 100% biological. the brain is made up of neurons, and these neurons travel through patterns in our brain... a signal hits one neuron and its electric gradient turns from positive to negative.. charging the neuron and an electric impulse is fired down an axom to another neuron.. where that receives the signal.. and the process continues.... these pathways formulate our thoughts...

now... considering your idea of "you" and "free will".... which is the ability to control your thoughts.... how can you control a cell gradient and make it turn positive or negative, taking into account the mathematical equation that is behind all these processes.....where does "free will" come into play during this equation? can your "free will" defy the laws of nature and cause a neuron to defy mathematics?






Actually in Programming and Metaprogramming the bio computer, John Lilly does a lot of experimentation with LSD in his flotation tank. He says you can change the electrical signals to a positive or negative. Obviously there is free will or every ones reality would be the same. Havn't you ever been on a psychedelic and have looked at things from different views. An opinion is free will, so obviously it exists. Are yous aying you don't make any choices or opinions? That is free will, isn't it.


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OfflineRob_K
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Registered: 03/23/03
Posts: 447
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Re: you think you have free will but you dont. [Re: Earth_Droid]
    #1547491 - 05/14/03 06:19 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

I hate to be the one to de-intellectialize this thread but I think the argument is over complicated. Look at the facts: if I want to go into my yard and shout "Fuck!" I can do. If I want to drive to the coast and smoke a joint, I can do. I don't have to but I might feel like it. This is called free will.

The argument about it being 100% biological doesn't take into account the idea of consciousness. Ok so maybe consciousness is the construct of billions of electrical signals over which we have no minute control, but this doesn't mean we are set on a pre-determined path. We are contantly being faced with choices every second of the day and weigh up our options and choose the path that pleases us most.

Iouco's idea that "intelligence is a tool developed to be aware of our reaction" doesn't make sense either.. this means that we go through life aware of what we are doing but unable to control it. I'm sorry but I don't buy it.


--------------------
-{ divined from the mind }--

My music


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OfflineEarth_Droid
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Re: you think you have free will but you dont. [Re: Rob_K]
    #1547570 - 05/14/03 07:24 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

of course its a bit of both. why can't things both exist at the same time? free will can exist and it can be pre determed. Why are people so black and white.


Edited by Earth_Droid (05/14/03 07:28 AM)


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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
Son of Uncle Meat
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Re: you think you have free will but you dont. [Re: Earth_Droid]
    #1547573 - 05/14/03 07:27 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

i've held that view for a long time E_D, that free will and (self) determinism exist simultaneously :smile: 


--------------------
"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"



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OfflineEvilGir
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Re: you think you have free will but you dont. [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #1547826 - 05/14/03 10:10 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

I almost agree to this but i dont think it has anything to do with our brains but our minds even then this would only apply to 95% of the poppulation because they are sheep anyway. But some of this has been proven though psychological studies ect. Such as 95% of right handed people will turn right once walking though a door way. There is also sub-concious decesions that you make all the time with out even realising it.


--------------------
Fighting the man the best way I can.


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OfflineEarth_Droid
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Re: you think you have free will but you dont. [Re: EvilGir]
    #1547834 - 05/14/03 10:14 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

It all depends on certain states of awareness. Everyone is ruled by a certain degree of conditioning and action that is not well thought through. This is what makes the idea of free will a reality. Without the idea of conditioning, there would not be free will. At least that seems to make sense to me at this moment. I am freely using my brain to respond and picking the right words out.


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Offlinelouco
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Re: you think you have free will but you dont. [Re: Rob_K]
    #1548993 - 05/14/03 06:16 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

I hate to be the one to de-intellectialize this thread but I think the argument is over complicated. Look at the facts: if I want to go into my yard and shout "Fuck!" I can do. If I want to drive to the coast and smoke a joint, I can do. I don't have to but I might feel like it. This is called free will.

if you go to your yard and shout "Fuck!" it's because you were supposed to. like, if you had your entire life played again you will shout fuck again!
and you think: "so i'm supposed to shout fuck in my yard then i won't do it, i have free will and choose not to shout."
so, dont you see, you were supposed to think and act to not shout.


Iouco's idea that "intelligence is a tool developed to be aware of our reaction" doesn't make sense either.. this means that we go through life aware of what we are doing but unable to control it. I'm sorry but I don't buy it.

see animals for example, they just react, they are pure living reactors, they dont question their existance, they're just there, eating, shitting, sleeping, etc.

we humans were like that too, but we developed a better brain, intelligence and rationality, BUT WE STILL REACT ! intelligence just make you construct a better reaction for you, but it's still a reaction.


personally, when i'm on LSD, often i realize what will happen in the future, i mean, not details and shit, but in general... some of my friends have the same shit.

once, when i'm talking to a big friend who was tripping too, i KNEW what he was going to say before he say it, and he had the same shit.. yes we could be just tripping out, but maybe we could 'see' the reaction before it happen.

yea sounds crazy but maybe i'm just too 'chapado'  :grin: 


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OfflineRob_K
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Re: you think you have free will but you dont. [Re: louco]
    #1549115 - 05/14/03 07:20 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

It all comes down to what you believe really doesn't it? There's no answer to this question.. Personally, my response is that there is no pre-determined path- we live life in the moment and make the choices we do because we are granted the freedom to make those choices.

In the dictionary, "will" is defined as "The mental faculty by which one deliberately chooses or decides upon a course of action." The very concept of "will" is dependent on my ability to make choices. Saying I have no free will is to say that I don't have the ability to make a choice, when clearly I do every day.

I firmly believe that if space/time split into a tangent the second I was born, then the me in the parallel universe would be making different choices and living a different life, no matter how minute that difference is.

How about this.. if you believe in predeterminance, then it is simply predetermined that at any given time you will be exercising your free will.. the fact that it is predetermined does not mean it is not YOUR conscious choice. I guess this is just an idea, and like I say I don't believe in predeterminance anyway.


We could go round in circles..


--------------------
-{ divined from the mind }--

My music


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Invisibletak_old
Endo Smoke

Registered: 05/31/02
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Re: you think you have free will but you dont. [Re: Rob_K]
    #1549957 - 05/15/03 12:44 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

I think our world is based on a bunch of rules. What we learn, what we see, hear, smell. Past experiences, people we know, who we feel we must impress, the fear of consquences. These things are based off our ego, wich society created. Inside us all is a true center, and i feel that it has a huge effect on your descisions in life. Some people see it, others dont. I think it all depends on who you are, and what your current possition in life is. I think it all depends on your beliefs also. If we are all a single being, and we are connected at every level possible, time having no play because every moment has happend at once... The idea of free will doesnt mean too much. I dunno.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: you think you have free will but you dont. [Re: Strumpling]
    #1550355 - 05/15/03 07:15 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

I don't know about the "pre-determined" part anymore, man..

I think it may be similar to how there is a type of equation that maps out the "wave function" of a quantum particle, which will tell you all the possible routes for the particle at a given point in time, but not specifically point out which one - it basically lays out the "rules" and the particle will take one of the routes that fit into this equation to its destination


your stoned rant was actually pretty good. :smile: I also look to quantum mechanics to try to explain free will/determinism. it's so much more interesting than the philosopical approach to the problem, which gets us nowhere :wink:. I'll say right now that I don't think we'll ever find a physical mechanism for free will, but we should be able to find a physical mechanism for determinism, because determinism is supposedly based on physical laws...  the problem is, some people are woefully behind on their knowledge of physics, they rely on predictable, safe Newtonian physics to try to explain EVERYTHING, including human behavior...  and Newtonian physics work, at the macro level and even at the cellular and molecular level, but if you really want to base a theory on the laws of the physical plane, you have to go deeper and try to understand the essense of things.

I doubt that quantum mechanics will ever be understood by the masses, but perhaps the most important thing, in this context, is that at that level, things aren't so "fixed"... we can't nail down the position of an electron as it "orbits" the atom, there are only tendencies, probabilities or "wave functions". the workings of quantum mechanics has been described as quantum "foam" by physicists - pure randomness. well, maybe not true randomness, but chaos - unpredictability, where a particle doesn't occupy a point in space, but it occupies a "field" with very fuzzy edges :wink:...  the more you study the physical world, the less "physical" it seems.

Either way, I don't know if quantum randomness is really "freedom" anyway, because that may imply that each particle has free-will

I don't think this has to imply that each particle has free-will. that would be like saying that our consciousness implies that individual brain cells also have consciousnes. quantum randomness doesn't prove free will, but it casts a lot of doubt on a predetermined world. Another possibility is that there really IS an Ultimate Physical Law unknown (unknowable?) to us, beyond Newtonian physics, beyond quantum mechanics and whatever comes next, where everything is fixed and predetermined...  this way, determinists can conveniently ignore the fact that current physical laws can't actually determine anything... but this bothers me for several reasons.. first, they have to take a huge leap of faith to believe that this actually exists, it's a bigger leap than the belief in free will, so I don't think any hard-core determinist would take this stand, and secondly, a predetermined universe where perfect laws exist would HAVE to be finite (in both size and scale), if you think about it... and I don't think that's the case...

Well, I think I'm getting closer to figuring this out... I have it in my mind but can't put it to words...
I was once on the fence on this subject, but the more I learned about the physical world, the more chaotic it seemed. I couldn't prove free will but I chose to believe it because it is what I experienced on a daily basis, and the fundamentals of determinism seemed flawed in its major assumptions. seemed illogical to me, but I guess everyone has to come to their own conclusions, although I have the suspicion that some determinists actually want to believe in determinism.

 


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OfflineVulture
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Registered: 06/18/02
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Re: you think you have free will but you dont. [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1551671 - 05/15/03 03:43 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

if what you were sying is true then woudent identical twins be pretty much the same people?


i find that to be a bunch of bunk.....we are to a certain extent slaves of society but we still can make choices. Every person and there min are unique and even if they are raised the exact same and experience that exact same thigns they will in there own minds interpret them differently.


--------------------
Work like you dont need the money.

Love like you never been hurt.

Dance like nobody is watching.


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OfflineEvilGir
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Re: you think you have free will but you dont. [Re: Vulture]
    #1554861 - 05/16/03 06:43 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

If free will truly exists, how come just like animials we as a species are predictable. Also what about fate isnt that predetermined our future.


--------------------
Fighting the man the best way I can.


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OfflineRob_K
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Re: you think you have free will but you dont. [Re: EvilGir]
    #1554928 - 05/16/03 07:36 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

well that all depends if you believe in fate or not doesn't it?

and are we really that predictable? If you went back 100 years and said "guess what's going to happen next centuary" do you think they'd have any clue? I don't.


--------------------
-{ divined from the mind }--

My music


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11polakie11 5,760 42 05/15/03 01:34 AM
by Sclorch
* Help! Free will problem.
( 1 2 all )
SpecialEd 3,565 23 02/13/04 01:09 PM
by Deiymiyan
* Freewill vs. Determinism: ....???
( 1 2 3 all )
buttonion 6,609 52 04/16/03 01:39 AM
by JuR
* Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;)
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 all )
ZenGecko 16,131 148 04/22/07 10:22 PM
by PhanTomCat
* Patent granted on Free Energy Device!
( 1 2 all )
Anonymous 3,132 20 04/17/02 08:24 PM
by Anonymous
* materialism, determinism, and free will revisited Anonymous 873 4 09/27/04 08:35 PM
by deff
* Big Questions (comments on free will)
( 1 2 3 all )
Attackgecko 4,883 49 04/22/07 10:23 PM
by Phred

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