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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: trendal]
    #6458312 -

trendal said:
You are resting on the assumption that our Universe is infinitely large. You can't know that, just as I can't know that it's not.

All current scientific understanding of our Universe says that it is finitet in size.




Even if we live in a finite and "Necessity Connected" Universe it still contained within an infinite space. It has waves flowing into that come from infinity and they can never be pre-determined. This explains the uncertainty of the Quantum Theory. We can never know where each successive In-Wave will meet at its Wave-Center, so we can never exactly know the future motion and position of the particle.

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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: BuddahKillah]
    #6458516 -

honestly i dont give a shit anymore. Im too concerned with getting some action this weekend, and no longer will i give a damn about our place here, or how large or small all this is.

If is infinate, great thats awesome, and would make more sense to me. Why would it stop, nothing wants to stop being cool, right?

ifs its finate, well thats alright too. It is a small world then, but much larger than i would ever need.

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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: BuddahKillah]
    #6458925 -

Where did I say that you could know the future? Do you exist outside of time?

Not knowing the future does not discredit any notion of a pre-determined future.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: trendal]
    #6459103 -

What I was trying to get across is the fact that the Universe itself can not know its own future... according to the Quantum Theory.

It is very important to appreciate the difference between a Necessarily Connected Universe, which ours is, and a Deterministic Universe which requires knowledge of the 'initial conditions' from which things, being necessarily connected, can then be determined.

We exist in a finite and 'Necessarily Connected' Universe (due to the Properties of Space as a continuously connected wave medium), whereas Space itself must be Infinite (One thing existing is necessarily Infinite and Eternal). Thus our finite universe continually has waves flowing into it that have come from Infinity, and can never be pre-determined (an infinite system cannot be predetermined).

A question : Do you believe in morality? If so, how can you believe in morality and not free-will? Their is a huge flaw in this kind of logic.


Edited by BuddahKillah (01/14/07 03:35 PM)

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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: BuddahKillah]
    #6459319 -

I would change it to "free will is a RARE thing"


--------------------
God says dance with your heart
And shake free of you desire

Where theres a will theres always a way
When you get confused listen to the music play


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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Phluck]
    #6460513 -

Phluck said:
At any given time, you have millions of options. You could stand up right now, run around the room three times, while yodeling. Or maybe you could strangle yourself with the mouse cord. Or you could try eating a diskette.

Will you make these choices? Probably not.

When you're faced with an imminant decision, "do you want to go to the party or not?", you'll make a choice there based on how you feel about parties, how you feel about the people at the party, and how you feel at the moment. If we could press a rewind button on life, go back in time, and repeat that moment with every minute variable identical, would your decision ever vary? If it would, why?


my free will manifests itself in triviality, perhaps that is how it is free.


--------------------
read books

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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: CerebralFlower]
    #6461247 -

Of course, we only have "limited free-will". We can't defy gravity and take off flying any time we feel like it, but within the constraints of necessary connection there are still many possible futures. We can choose to read this, or we can decide to stop reading it. Both are possible futures that obey the laws of physics and the necessary connections between things.

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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: trendal]
    #6461314 -

I love how arrogant we humans are :smirk:

To think that the future isn't set, that we have control over how it plays out, is certainly arrogant. If time is a dimension the past and future have to be set*, and it is only to a being caught in time that the future appears as unset.


*all of time would be set, from any perspective outside of time


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: trendal]
    #6461389 -

Are you trying to say I'm arrogant because of my belief in free will?

I think thats a pretty arrogant statement itself.

1. How can an infinite system be pre-determined?

2. Do you believe in morality?

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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: BuddahKillah]
    #6461522 -

Are you trying to say I'm arrogant because of my belief in free will?

Did I reply to you? I said "we humans".

1. How can an infinite system be pre-determined?

You still need to show me some proof that the Universe is infinite in any way.

2. Do you believe in morality?

Humans invented morality, in that sense yes I believe in it.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: trendal]
    #6462861 -

Did I reply to you? I said "we humans".

Nice dodge. You implied that anyone who believes in free will is arrogant. Since I believe in free will you are implying that I am arrogant.

You still need to show me some proof that the Universe is infinite in any way.

For the third time :

Even if we live in a finite and "Necessity Connected" Universe it still contained within an infinite space. It has waves flowing into that come from infinity and they can never be pre-determined. This explains the uncertainty of the Quantum Theory. We can never know where each successive In-Wave will meet at its Wave-Center, so we can never exactly know the future motion and position of the particle.


Humans invented morality, in that sense yes I believe in it.

Morality can not exist if the Universe is pre-determined.

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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: BuddahKillah]
    #6462899 -

Nice dodge. You implied that anyone who believes in free will is arrogant. Since I believe in free will you are implying that I am arrogant.

What part of "we" didn't you understand? I include myself in "we"

ven if we live in a finite and "Necessity Connected" Universe it still contained within an infinite space. It has waves flowing into that come from infinity and they can never be pre-determined. This explains the uncertainty of the Quantum Theory. We can never know where each successive In-Wave will meet at its Wave-Center, so we can never exactly know the future motion and position of the particle.

What are these "waves" you speak of? What are they made out of?

Do you even understand quantum theory?

We can certainly know either the position or velocity of a particle. The Uncertainty Principle only says that we cannot know both to a high degree simultaneously.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: trendal]
    #6463220 -

What part of "we" didn't you understand? I include myself in "we"

So you do believe in free will then?


What are these "waves" you speak of? What are they made out of?

Do you even understand quantum theory?

We can certainly know either the position or velocity of a particle. The Uncertainty Principle only says that we cannot know both to a high degree simultaneously.

We can never know where each successive In-Wave will meet at its Wave-Center, so we can never exactly know both the future motion (momentum) and position of the ‘Particle’

Read that very carefully.

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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: BuddahKillah]
    #6463289 -

man this shit doesnt matter, be who you are and do what you want.

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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: trendal]
    #6463646 -

Ok, here's the deal: If you put me in a certain point in time, knowing what I knew at the time, and feeling what I felt at the time, I would probably make the same decision all over again. So what? I chose to do what I felt like at the time. A choice determined by my circumstances is still a choice. The only way it wouldn't be a choice would be if someone coerced me into doing it. The fact that we make a certain choice under certain circumstances doesn't make it any less a choice. Again, free will is a function of determinism.


--------------------

Edited by Silversoul (01/16/07 10:58 AM)

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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Silversoul]
    #6464940 -

That is a decent definition of free will and coherent with determinism, but this definition doesn't correspond with the free will feeling (most) people have. This definition gives computers free will. A computer makes a choice determined by its (internal or external)input, this choice is always the same for the same input.

Humans are more complex and have more input, but with your definition of free will, you have to agree that computers do have free will, don't you?

That would make free will so general and misleading that we can better call it "pre-determined choice" or something like that.

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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Annom]
    #6465531 -

Well, I personally also happen to think there is a certain amount of indeterminism in the universe, as seen in quantum physics. So there is a certain amount of randomness to our circumstances and how we react to it. In fact, isn't evolution based on creating creating order out of randomness(as in random mutations)? I think free will works in a similar way. We're presented with a myriad of choices, and our brain, influenced by our circumstances, narrows those choices down.


--------------------

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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Silversoul]
    #6465570 -

Quantum mechanics does NOT say that anything is truly random...that is one interpretation, but it isn't what the science itself indicates.

Quantum theory states simply that you can't know various properties of a particle simultaneously.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: trendal]
    #6465576 -

I realize that, but I'm going to take a leap of faith here and go with the Copenhagen interpretation.


--------------------

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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Silversoul]
    #6465590 -

As long as you realize that it's only an interpretation...not theory in any sense of the word. :wink:


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
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