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Offlinelouco
newbie
Registered: 09/26/02
Posts: 49
Loc: Brazil
Last seen: 7 months, 17 days
you think you have free will but you dont.
    #1546307 - 05/13/03 09:32 PM (14 years, 15 days ago)

everything you do, every move you make is just a reaction of your brain to the world you've been shown. you dont choose to read this thread you read it because the reaction of your brain during all those years brought you to read it.
this happens because if you reborn, for example, at the same place, the same time, the same parents, same body, same friends, same thoughts you would react to the same words, same moves, same drugs, same thread.

so actually our 'intelligence' is a tool developed to be aware of our reaction.

or maybe i'm just too stoned..
your thoughts?


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OfflineEarth_Droid
Stranger
Registered: 04/19/02
Posts: 5,240
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Re: you think you have free will but you dont. [Re: louco]
    #1546318 - 05/13/03 09:36 PM (14 years, 15 days ago)

I disagree with most of what you said. Of course your choices are reactions from your brain, but they come after thinking about them. In a state of Samdi enlightenment you can choose your own realities and re imprint your conditioning and thought processes. At the end you said intelligence is a tool developed to be aware of our reactions. Well if this is the case wouldn't that awareness of our reactions be the free will that you have? That is why you have more freedom in highter states of awareness.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: you think you have free will but you dont. [Re: louco]
    #1546347 - 05/13/03 09:43 PM (14 years, 15 days ago)

oh no, not a another one..

are you saying that there are billions of people in the world suffering the exact same delusion? are you sure? that's quite an assertion... any evidence?



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OfflineStrumpling
Neuronaut
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
Loc: Hyperspace
Last seen: 6 years, 4 days
Re: you think you have free will but you dont. [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1546400 - 05/13/03 10:00 PM (14 years, 15 days ago)

I have no doubt that billions of people in the world are suffering the exact same delusions


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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OfflineDeiymiyan
I AM

Registered: 04/17/03
Posts: 656
Loc: Within the Realm of Imagi...
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: you think you have free will but you dont. [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1546402 - 05/13/03 10:01 PM (14 years, 15 days ago)

"are you saying that there are billions of people in the world suffering the exact same delusion? "
----------------


I'd be inclined to agree with the title of this thread... with "fineprint" included...

At this point in time, I wouldn't say delision..... rather ILLUSION.

Perhaps subject to change in the future.



--------------------


Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..



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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: you think you have free will but you dont. [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #1546418 - 05/13/03 10:07 PM (14 years, 15 days ago)

alright then, what's the point of this grand illusion?


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OfflineStrumpling
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Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
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Re: you think you have free will but you dont. [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1546463 - 05/13/03 10:25 PM (14 years, 15 days ago)

who said there was a point?


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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OfflineStrumpling
Neuronaut
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
Loc: Hyperspace
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Re: you think you have free will but you dont. [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1546471 - 05/13/03 10:26 PM (14 years, 15 days ago)

I don't think there's a point to the illusion.....

The illusion is simply a result of our subjectivity, our separation from the whole through the hardware (and software) of the mind


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


Edited by Strumpling (05/13/03 10:27 PM)


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OfflinePenguin
You can't be me I'm a Rockstar

Registered: 02/10/02
Posts: 1,830
Loc: On the Arctic ice shelf.
Last seen: 2 years, 17 days
Re: you think you have free will but you dont. [Re: Strumpling]
    #1546490 - 05/13/03 10:31 PM (14 years, 15 days ago)

i know that I have no free-will. There are things out there more powerful than I. I dont speak of Gods but of coincidences and deja`vu and Wal-Mart...yea. Wal-Mart is evil!!!!

Too bad free-will isn't on a self there.


--------------------
The fear of loss is always greater than the desire for gain


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: you think you have free will but you dont. [Re: Strumpling]
    #1546510 - 05/13/03 10:37 PM (14 years, 15 days ago)

so... free will IS an illusion... but there really is no point to it?

is it biological? are we hard-wired to think that we have free will? why?

billions of people are going about their lives with no idea that their brains are playing tricks on them? it's quite a theory, beautiful... almost... everything playing out as it should... events that were predetermined eons ago...

but why? how? can anyone give me a description of how exactly things are "predetermined"? is there a physical mechanism? can you explain it?

I want hard answers from you determinists.


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OfflineDeiymiyan
I AM

Registered: 04/17/03
Posts: 656
Loc: Within the Realm of Imagi...
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: you think you have free will but you dont. [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1546512 - 05/13/03 10:38 PM (14 years, 15 days ago)

"are you saying that there are billions of people in the world suffering the exact same delusion"
--------------------

Although, I said Illusion..... you think they are not? You wanna tell me your point?
I've mentionned before how I feel on the subject.

At this stage of the game, I think we are in the learning process part of it.

Not the freedom.

[edit*]- I'm thinking I should clarify a bit.... You can think whatever you want, about whatever you like... The things you actually do, however, might be another story.





--------------------


Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..



Edited by Deiymiyan (05/13/03 10:51 PM)


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: you think you have free will but you dont. [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #1546529 - 05/13/03 10:41 PM (14 years, 15 days ago)

honestly, I'm just trying to shift the burden of proof to the determinists, because it seems that you are the ones making wild claims.



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OfflineDeiymiyan
I AM

Registered: 04/17/03
Posts: 656
Loc: Within the Realm of Imagi...
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: you think you have free will but you dont. [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1546534 - 05/13/03 10:44 PM (14 years, 15 days ago)

Thanx for the MIS labeling ! You are not 100 % accurate on it.


--------------------


Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..



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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: you think you have free will but you dont. [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #1546590 - 05/13/03 11:00 PM (14 years, 15 days ago)

?
I'm sorry if I mislabled you... I'm speaking to the determists.
I guess you're not 100% determinist...

let me revise what I said... I think the burden of proof is and should be on both sides... I can't prove either one right now. but there is one thing that I experience directly and that is free will.. I do not 'experience' determinism.
I'm inclined to believe what I experience unless someone comes up with some evidence saying otherwise... so that's why I'm trying to shift the burden of proof and asking for some hard evidence of determinism.


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OfflineDrubuShrume
EAT ME - I'm afungi

Registered: 05/14/02
Posts: 449
Loc: Right where I need to be
Last seen: 9 years, 8 months
Re: you think you have free will but you dont. [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1546630 - 05/13/03 11:16 PM (14 years, 15 days ago)

How do you know that the second you die, you never really die, but that second lasts for as long as you've lived, and you live again until that moment you are about to die and re-live your life?? hmmm


--------------------
AH HA....


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Anonymous

Re: you think you have free will but you dont. [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1547137 - 05/14/03 02:42 AM (14 years, 15 days ago)

is it biological? are we hard-wired to think that we have free will? why?

yes, its 100% biological. the brain is made up of neurons, and these neurons travel through patterns in our brain... a signal hits one neuron and its electric gradient turns from positive to negative.. charging the neuron and an electric impulse is fired down an axom to another neuron.. where that receives the signal.. and the process continues.... these pathways formulate our thoughts...

now... considering your idea of "you" and "free will".... which is the ability to control your thoughts.... how can you control a cell gradient and make it turn positive or negative, taking into account the mathematical equation that is behind all these processes.....where does "free will" come into play during this equation? can your "free will" defy the laws of nature and cause a neuron to defy mathematics?



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OfflineStrumpling
Neuronaut
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
Loc: Hyperspace
Last seen: 6 years, 4 days
Re: you think you have free will but you dont. [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1547244 - 05/14/03 03:38 AM (14 years, 15 days ago)

I don't know about the "pre-determined" part anymore, man..

I think it may be similar to how there is a type of equation that maps out the "wave function" of a quantum particle, which will tell you all the possible routes for the particle at a given point in time, but not specifically point out which one - it basically lays out the "rules" and the particle will take one of the routes that fit into this equation to its destination - I think we just have larger "wave functions" with tons more variables since we are organized in a physically "capable" manner and work on an augmented time-scale (we're way slower than ordinary light). Plants could be the same way, which gives way to the seemingly random places that branches or leaves or whatevers will grow from..
Wow I've never really visualized this type of theory in my mind but I guess I'm more into "free-will" now until somebody figures out how these parts of wave functions are chosen by nature.. Either way, I don't know if quantum randomness is really "freedom" anyway, because that may imply that each particle has free-will, which would be fuckin creepy - lol to take it further I could extrapolate that life is simply a means of creating as many "wave function-type" variables as possible on every scale; widening the rules; making the impossibilities possible; the ability to be everything everywhere constantly

rofl I'd better stop here :wink: gee can you tell I just smoked a few bowls? :grin: this might be how some of those weird "buy our weird books and watch for september of 3031" websites get started lol


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


Edited by Strumpling (05/14/03 04:44 AM)


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OfflineRhizoid
carbon unit
Male

Registered: 01/23/00
Posts: 1,722
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 20 hours, 21 minutes
Re: you think you have free will but you dont. [Re: louco]
    #1547421 - 05/14/03 06:33 AM (14 years, 15 days ago)

Is there any significant difference between these two scenarios:

(1) The reaction of your brain is 100% determined by its previous state, its present inputs, and by new bits of information (called "free will") that didn't exist until now.

(2) The reaction of your brain is 100% determined by its previous state, its present inputs, and by old bits of information that have been hidden and inaccessible until now but were "really" determined by some boundary condition at the beginning of time.


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OfflineEarth_Droid
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Registered: 04/19/02
Posts: 5,240
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Re: you think you have free will but you dont. [Re: ]
    #1547439 - 05/14/03 07:02 AM (14 years, 15 days ago)

Quote:

is it biological? are we hard-wired to think that we have free will? why?

yes, its 100% biological. the brain is made up of neurons, and these neurons travel through patterns in our brain... a signal hits one neuron and its electric gradient turns from positive to negative.. charging the neuron and an electric impulse is fired down an axom to another neuron.. where that receives the signal.. and the process continues.... these pathways formulate our thoughts...

now... considering your idea of "you" and "free will".... which is the ability to control your thoughts.... how can you control a cell gradient and make it turn positive or negative, taking into account the mathematical equation that is behind all these processes.....where does "free will" come into play during this equation? can your "free will" defy the laws of nature and cause a neuron to defy mathematics?






Actually in Programming and Metaprogramming the bio computer, John Lilly does a lot of experimentation with LSD in his flotation tank. He says you can change the electrical signals to a positive or negative. Obviously there is free will or every ones reality would be the same. Havn't you ever been on a psychedelic and have looked at things from different views. An opinion is free will, so obviously it exists. Are yous aying you don't make any choices or opinions? That is free will, isn't it.


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OfflineRob_K
s p a c e d

Registered: 03/23/03
Posts: 447
Loc: London
Last seen: 3 years, 6 months
Re: you think you have free will but you dont. [Re: Earth_Droid]
    #1547491 - 05/14/03 08:19 AM (14 years, 15 days ago)

I hate to be the one to de-intellectialize this thread but I think the argument is over complicated. Look at the facts: if I want to go into my yard and shout "Fuck!" I can do. If I want to drive to the coast and smoke a joint, I can do. I don't have to but I might feel like it. This is called free will.

The argument about it being 100% biological doesn't take into account the idea of consciousness. Ok so maybe consciousness is the construct of billions of electrical signals over which we have no minute control, but this doesn't mean we are set on a pre-determined path. We are contantly being faced with choices every second of the day and weigh up our options and choose the path that pleases us most.

Iouco's idea that "intelligence is a tool developed to be aware of our reaction" doesn't make sense either.. this means that we go through life aware of what we are doing but unable to control it. I'm sorry but I don't buy it.


--------------------
-{ divined from the mind }--

My music


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